Was There Parker 61 Custom Insignia?

[mac.kozinsky]

Hello, Witajcie

 

I was trying to help my friend to identify the model of "61" he has got and his suggestion was it's Custom Insignia. Not having catalogues for 60-ties and 70-ties I only noticed there was "51" Insignia (cap + barrel 1/10 12kt gold filled) and there was Custom (just the cap gold filled). In spare parts catalogues/price-lists for 1960, 62 and '80 I couldn't find Custom Insignia but I noticed that caps for these models (Custom and Insignia) separately have the same "part number" and if they are described, the description is the same.

 

I also found (looking at spare parts price-lists) International versions with 14 carat gold filling. There were also a "new style" Custom and Insignia and a "mechanical" in front of some Custom model parts (mechanical means, it was filled in some other way then capillary ... although it sounds like pencil parts?).

And, at the same time all over the Internet people use Custom Insignia describing all sorts of pens. Can you help me out, wrapping my had around this? I read everything about models 61 and 65 (there also seems to be Custom Insignia) at parkerpen.net but after finding this line:

 

Insignia (aka Jet Flighter, aka Signet) (1958—1980's)

 

 

I'm no longer sure what to trust ... as much as I admire the amount of info collected at parkerpens.net, respect the man (and contributors) and the project itself, there is always a margin of (unintentional) error. It's hard to believe that Jet Flighter = Insignia? Was it ever true? The Signet part is a different story.

Anyway there is no explanation what 1966 "custom insignia" would mean for Parker 61 at ParkerPen.net.

 

The very same parkerpens.net "bio" of model "61" includes these info:

 

 

In 1966 the following models were offered in the UK:
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif Classic
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif custom
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif Heirloom
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif Insignia
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gifcustom Insignia
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif Flighter GT
http://www.parkerpens.net/images/romb.gif Presidential in 9 or 18K solid gold

 

I've read all "Custom Insignia" Parker 61 FPN threads I could find, but mostly people just say: It's Custom Insignia and show ... Insignia or ... Custom. The ads I was able to find only show Custom or Insignia as separate models.

 

Are the vertical lines in groups of 5 the key or maybe a gold cap with GF body? On UK production GF was RG (rolled gold)?

 

Thanks in advance for any hint or info or directing me to where the explanation can be found,

Regards,

Maciek

 

Photo comes from heritagecollectables.com

http://www.heritagecollectables.com/DSC07069.JPG

Edited August 24, 2015 by mac.kozinsky

[richardandtracy]

I think the official title was 'Custom Insignia' for the common or garden P61 with a gold cap and barrel. At the moment I'm not sure whether it was RG/GF or GP, though given the way they last, I think RG/GF is more likely.

 

They are commonly mis-named as 'Insignia' or 'Signet'. Unless it's a 'Presidential', don't worry, there was only 1 type made, all had the same number of lines, same quantity of gold in the barrel etc. The 'Presidential' has solid gold, not RG, and is eyewateringly expensive, and is in several patterns/gold content.

 

There are 3 other gold coloured barrels, the UK made 'Clouds' series, Cirrus, Stratus & Cumulus. They always go for a great premium & look amazing. Totally different from the Custom Insignia.

 

The 'Custom' has RG cap and gold coloured trim.

 

The 'Jet Flighter' is something else entirely, it has a stainless barrel and cap with two levels of trim. The standard 'Jet Flighter' had stainless cap & barrel with silver coloured trim, while the 'Jet Flighter Delux' has gold trim (clip, end jewels [if appropriate for year of manufacture], centre ring and arrow).

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[mac.kozinsky]

I think the official title was 'Custom Insignia' for the common or garden P61 with a gold cap and barrel. At the moment I'm not sure whether it was RG/GF or GP, though given the way they last, I think RG/GF is more likely.

 

They are commonly mis-named as 'Insignia' or 'Signet'.

 

 

Thank you Richard for a very detailed explanation :-) P61 you say :-)

But more seriously: That's the core of the problem. What you describe I found to be named just "Insignia" NOT "Custom Insignia". Signet was, I think, a name of one of Parker '51' models.

 

In 1962, list of the models - as per spare parts price-list - was as follows. Notice Custom and Insignia have the same kind of cap (in 1980 catalogue the cap had the same "part number") and there is no " Custom Insignia". What I'm trying to establish is was it ever use officialy by Parker. If so, to describe what?

http://images69.fotosik.pl/1128/7df5188c6879af0c.png

http://images67.fotosik.pl/1130/6af20904aa22cd2f.jpg

[Ted F]

The pens you have in your photo are not Parker Insignia or Custom Insignia pens. The photo below is a Parker Custom Burgundy Insignia fountain pen.

 

 

[ceejaybee]

"In 1962, list of the models - as per spare parts price-list - was as follows. Notice Custom and Insignia have the same kind of cap (in 1980 catalogue the cap had the same "part number") and there is no " Custom Insignia". What I'm trying to establish is was it ever use officially by Parker. If so, to describe what?"

 

 

Yes, it was definitely used by Parker here in the UK, I have a 1980 UK catalogue which refers to the P61 & P65 Custom Insignia. I think the confusion may be caused by the possibility that Parker USA and Parker UK may have used different terminology to describe what was essentially the same model in the same finish albeit gold filled versus rolled gold. I'm not familiar with the USA P61s but it's also quite possible that in the USA the gold filled P61 was simply known as the Insignia but here in the UK it was certainly the Custom Insignia - in the photo taken from Heritage Collectables the clip tags are original to the pens.

 

All Parker's 'Custom' pens were pens that sported a gold coloured cap regardless of barrel material, Insignia was used to describe pens that also sported a matching gold coloured barrel hence a Custom Insignia is comprised of a gold coloured cap & barrel which could account for the barrel on your price list being described as simply 'Insignia' and the cap as 'Custom' - just a guess??

 

Just to add a little more confusion is that Parker UK also produced a rolled gold P61 & P65 known as the 'Consort Insignia' which was a different chequered pattern but again the cap and barrel were both rolled gold whereas the version with the plastic barrels were simply called the 'Consort' which does show some consistency.

 

Hope this helps?

 

[mac.kozinsky]

Thank you Ted F and thank you Ceejaybee

 

@Ceejaybee: your info would actually explain everything. Consorts, Cirrus, Stratus & Cumulus are not clouding the picture at all Although I thought Consort is a '45' model thing.

Do you think you could somehow present the photo or scan of the catalogue page to which you refer here:

 

I have a 1980 UK catalogue which refers to the P61 & P65 Custom Insignia.

That would be great.

As to

 

All Parker's 'Custom' pens were pens that sported a gold coloured cap regardless of barrel material, Insignia was used to describe pens that also sported a matching gold coloured barrel hence a Custom Insignia is comprised of a gold coloured cap & barrel which could account for the barrel on your price list being described as simply 'Insignia' and the cap as 'Custom' - just a guess??

I think the price-lists of spare parts I have access to - thanks to good people in America - are from the US market (model 61 is already "obsolete" in 1980 document, and no "61" in 1978 catalogue) where I'm sure Custom and Insignia where, at least for some period if not for the whole time, two different models and Insignia being what seems to be - again in 1980 at least - Custom Insignia in the UK. With GF imprint replaced with RG for Made in England.

 

Regards,

Maciek

Edited August 25, 2015 by mac.kozinsky

[richardandtracy]

Could well be running into the same old problem. US & UK: two nations being kept separate by a common language.

 

I should have made it clear, being UK based, I find it difficult to get it right on US variations.

 

I am pretty sure that the UK went to metal jewels long before they were found in the US. Richard Binder is utterly convinced they didn't appear in the US until relatively late (can't remember the date but think it was post 1976). Anyway, in 1978 I was given a burgundy P61 Custom with metal jewels by my late mother. That pen was NOS as the stationer's shut down, and had the original pre-decimal price tag of £6,6s (£6.30 in decimal) on it. Decimal coinage came in in the UK on 15 Feb 1971 - and the price tag was as faded as you'd expect for a 7 year old minimum tag. Indicating that in the UK at least (and I've heard of Hong Kong was the same) that the metal jewel version was pre 1971. This would point to Parker US & UK operating quite differently even with common models of pen.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[Ted F]

This is the most confusing post I've ever read. I can't figure out who's on first. Speaking as the typical "ugly American" the Insignia line of ballpoints were introduced in the U.S.A. in 1991, fountain pens introduced in 1997, production shifted from U.S.A. to France by 2000, and the whole line discontinued in 2008. That's my story.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Ted F

[mitto]

This is the most confusing post I've ever read. I can't figure out who's on first. Speaking as the typical "ugly American" the Insignia line of ballpoints were introduced in the U.S.A. in 1991, fountain pens introduced in 1997, production shifted from U.S.A. to France by 2000, and the whole line discontinued in 2008. That's my story.

Nobody is talking here about the particular "Parker Insignia" model pen. The discussion is about different model Parker pens' 'insignia' and 'custom insignia' versions. Gold body pens are generally called 'insignia' and gold cap plastic barrel pens are called as 'custom' regardless of their model ( such as 51 , 61 , 45 etc).

[Ted F]

OK. Got it.

[ceejaybee]

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab212/ceejaybee_photo/Custom%20Insignia.jpg

[mac.kozinsky]

Thank you so much. It's 1980, right?

[ceejaybee]

Thank you so much. It's 1980, right?

 

Glad to help, yes 1980 as far as I can tell, there's no actual date on the catalogue itself only on the accompanying retail price list (March 1980) which lists the Custom Insignia fountain pen @ £42.00 including 15% VAT - not sure if you can tell but the end jewels are the later metal type that Richard mentioned in his earlier post.

 

I would've like to have said that the Insignia was a finely engraved lined pattern but the Consort Insignia contradicts this - but as far as I am aware on every other Model named as an Insignia it was the same lined pattern

[Ted F]

Could well be running into the same old problem. US & UK: two nations being kept separate by a common language.

 

I should have made it clear, being UK based, I find it difficult to get it right on US variations.

 

I am pretty sure that the UK went to metal jewels long before they were found in the US. Richard Binder is utterly convinced they didn't appear in the US until relatively late (can't remember the date but think it was post 1976). Anyway, in 1978 I was given a burgundy P61 Custom with metal jewels by my late mother. That pen was NOS as the stationer's shut down, and had the original pre-decimal price tag of £6,6s (£6.30 in decimal) on it. Decimal coinage came in in the UK on 15 Feb 1971 - and the price tag was as faded as you'd expect for a 7 year old minimum tag. Indicating that in the UK at least (and I've heard of Hong Kong was the same) that the metal jewel version was pre 1971. This would point to Parker US & UK operating quite differently even with common models of pen.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

 

As a side note, the difference you mentioned was demonstrated to me today. I went to our only pen store in Arkansas which is Vanness in Little Rock and I bought one of the new Parker Sonnet Great Expectation Special Editions. During a conversation with one of the owners she mentioned that the U.S. is really on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to fountain pens. The primary places are Europe and Asia and they get the first look and choice. Pens are never debuted in the U.S. The pen I bought was introduced May 1st and they were just able to order it last week. It's easier to now know what is being offered because of the internet but years ago before the internet when only catalogs and local advertising was prevalent it was harder.

[richardandtracy]

Flip. £42 in 1980?

Wow. I hadn't realised they were that much at the time. I paid £18 & £28 for my P61 & P65 Custom Insignias in the last few years. Not perfect condition but with decades of life left in them.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

[mac.kozinsky]

 

I am pretty sure that the UK went to metal jewels long before they were found in the US. Richard Binder is utterly convinced they didn't appear in the US until relatively late (can't remember the date but think it was post 1976). Anyway, in 1978 I was given a burgundy P61 Custom with metal jewels by my late mother.

And what were the non-metal US jewels made of in P61 metal gold filled caps? The plastic of the body/barrel/section?

[mitto]

Glad to help, yes 1980 as far as I can tell, there's no actual date on the catalogue itself only on the accompanying retail price list (March 1980) which lists the Custom Insignia fountain pen @ £42.00 including 15% VAT - not sure if you can tell but the end jewels are the later metal type that Richard mentioned in his earlier post.

 

I would've like to have said that the Insignia was a finely engraved lined pattern but the Consort Insignia contradicts this - but as far as I am aware on every other Model named as an Insignia it was the same lined pattern

 

The shallow grid pattern GF 75 is also called 75 insignia. So the insignia is not always the lined pattern.