French Inkwell Eagle ? Help

[inkpen1]

Hello.
Can anyone tell me if this is an inkwell me. The time 1850-90 Probably France. The diameter of the glass insert is 5.4 cm. Or is it a different container?. What does the flame with eagle?. Thank You

[RMN]

Indeed looks like an inkwell although I doubt the insert is original. Normally the inserts fit much better.

 

Wouldn't know about origin and such.

 

Nice!

 

 

D.ick

[inkpen1]

Hello. The glass insert does not have a lid. It fits up through the border. I want to know what kind of an eagle?. Thank You

[RMN]

Probably the original insert was either glass or porcelain. It should be square, for this example and fit closely to the border. It would not have a separate lid, I think, but there could have been a more narrow mouth. The lid with the eagle serves as lid against evaporation.

 

I am not good in heraldics, so I could not tell you the origin of the eagle. Many Fürstentums had their own Adler. But the Eagle/Adler is found all over the world. The Americans use an Eagle, too.

 

 

D.ick

[inkpen1]

Thanks for the info.
I told someone that he is a Prussian eagle to 1830-1850
I search for the meaning of the flame under the eagle.
What can it mean?.

Thank You

[inkpen1]

Thanks for the info.
I told someone that he is a Prussian eagle to 1830-1850 ore older (1780)
I search for the meaning of the flame under the eagle.
What can it mean?.

Thank You

[kazoolaw]

I am ignorant as to the differences among French, Prussian, Polish, or American eagles as depicted in art or heraldry.

 

The figure of a bird rising through flames is commonly associated with the legend of the Phoenix, although I don't know whether that would include the crown on the bird's head.

 

Very nice inkwell,

 

gary

[Paddler]

Maybe the bird is not and eagle. The flames make me think it could be a phoenix.

[inkpen1]

Hello
Thanks for the info

I have compared to Google. it is true. It phoenix. only with the crown I ask meaningfully ???.
I have found on the Internet no inkwell comparable.

[AAAndrew]

Napoleon did use the eagle as a symbol of his empire. I wonder if this could be from the very short period of his resurgence after coming back from exile? Imperial eagle, crowned, and rising from the flames phoenix-like? Or it could be from the reign of Napoleon III, his nephew who also used the eagle as a symbol, and was claiming a reconstruction of his uncle's empire.

 

The symbolism seems pretty clearly to indicate a resurgence or resurrection of a royal or imperial reign. I doubt it would date back to the restoration of the Bourbons after Napoleon's defeat as they wouldn't use the same symbol (eagle) as Napoleon.

 

The crown, though, looks more eastern European. Look at the Polish coat of arms and you'll see crowned eagles. They all face the other direction, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It would be fascinating if there was some way of connecting it to the short year of Polish independence from Russia from November 1830-October of 1831 after the November Uprising. The uprising had a coat of arms that included a crowned eagle with his wings outstretched. And the symbolism of the phoenix would be appropriate as well as it was the Polish kingdom that was rising from the ashes of Russian control.

 

Did you have a reason to think it was French?

 

The clean, classical lines and the hand-forged nut holding the eagle to the lid both point to a first-half of 19th-century date.

 

But then I'm not expert, just an interested party and former art historian who can't resist a challenge.

 

Nice piece!

[my63]

Maybe the bird is not and eagle. The flames make me think it could be a phoenix.

 

I agree with Paddler my first thought was it was a Phoenix rising from the flames.

[inkpen1]

Hello AAAndrew
Thank you for the great interest.
Thank you for detailed info.
I am a little unsure, since it may be different.
How can you find out what it is exactly?

I now also think that it is Phoenix!
But because of your statements, I know it now also not exactly.
The age comes towards 1820-1850 + - or at least older ???

Do you know an expert who can help me?.

Thank You

[AAAndrew]

I would find a store that sells antiques from that era (19th-century). Unless there are maker's marks, it will be difficult to know exactly who made it and when. Someone who sells decorative items from that period may have a better idea, or have seen something like it before.

 

I'm pretty certain that the bird rising from the flames indicates a phoenix. Because the bird is wearing a crown, this tells me that it's most likely an imperial eagle. (not many birds are known for wearing hats, and crowns were pretty limited in who could wear them)

 

Because the eagle has only one head, that limits the places and times for it's manufacturer. I think a good guess is early-to-mid 19th-century, either in France, Germany or Poland. (it could be from as late as the late-19th-century, but the materials point towards earlier, specifically the nut used to hold the bird onto the lid)

 

Then you would want to look for who would want that symbol on their ink well? Most monarchs were rather clear on who could have objects with royal symbols. Almost always it was someone serving the monarch. In this case, an official, or governmental department perhaps. But the phoenix symbolism is unusual and has a very strong meaning of re-birth, rising from the ashes of seeming-death.

 

So, you'd want to look for some significant reason why someone would want to decorate an object with an imperial or royal eagle, born again from the flames and ashes, with one head, in the early-to-mid 19th-century. Look for historical events relating to a monarchy or emperor where the ruling house, or the monarchy itself is reconstituted or restored. And it would have to be one where the eagle, especially the crowned eagle, is a known symbol.

 

This is basic social-historical art history where you look at material artifacts and place them within, and use them to better understand, social and historical phenomenon. It's what I used to do long, long ago. It makes for an interesting puzzle and a fun mystery to solve.

 

For help, I would find someone who knows the decorative arts of 19th-century Europe. That should be fairly easy in any good-sized town in Germany.

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find out!

 

Also, do you have measurements of the ink well? It's hard to tell how large it is from the photo.

[pen2paper]

Is it possible to show a photo of the bottom of the inkwell?

As Andrew noted, the fittings, and also marks, details, on the unseen areas help identification.

 

forgive my awkward heraldry, been awhile. If this is heraldry? Phoenix rising flames, no torse.

Are we looking at the front? The head is turned right, so sinister. Wings are displayed, but not elevated.

IDK, are we looking at the back? with the tail feathers? then Dexter, rising, wings displayed, but not elevated.

Then if details remain, you'll have to determine the crown, count top and match.

Edited July 28, 2015 by pen2paper

[RMN]

The city of Buko (now part of Coswig) in Sachsen-Anhalt has a Phoenix in the shield.

 

In an site about German Heraldics it is said: "Ein aus die Asche, Glut oder Feuer aufsteigender Adler wird Phönix genannt. Er wird in der Heraldik oft eingesetzt"

(an eagle rising from ashes glow or fire is called fenix. It is often used in heraldics).

 

No doubt there are other examples. Have a look here. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phönix_(Wappentier)

 

In this case: Google is your friend

 

 

D.ick

[AAAndrew]

Very interesting. I wonder if any of the phoenix are crowned. It's the crown that makes me think it's an Eagle/Phoenix rather than just a Phoenix. You usually don't get crowns in heraldry unless you're the king. Or Emperor. Or at least royalty.

 

pen2paper, I'm assuming we're looking at the front based on the way the lid opens, but if it had ever been taken apart and put back together, it looks like it's held on with a bolt and nut, which means it could theoretically could have been put on backwards.

 

Thinking more about it, I'm assuming it's probably a government inkwell just because a personal one for royalty would be better made.

[RMN]

As Inkpen1 himself said, the Eagle looks like the Prussian one, I have seen pics online that looked very much the same, including that small crown and the stance of the wings. That city of Buko is in the area that used to be near the centre of Prussia.

 

 

D.ick

[pen2paper]

Hopefully now that inkpen 1 has us all puzzling through the clues, we'll see a shot of the bottom, whether any guild marks give its origin.

 

Guessing... brass and silver plate would not be royalty, but perhaps a service level of.. not a discernible crown, unless the squared, flat top is municipality. Could be Prussian eagle, but that's wings elevated, with crown and cross, unless lower rank military, about which I know zip zero nothing. Unless it's post war era rising from flame symbolism??? In heraldry every detail counts, and my recall of these is rusty, so that's all I have.

[inkpen1]

Hello an thanks

 

I have send more detaile picture of the inkwell.

[inkpen1]

Hello and thanks for interesting my inkwell.

I have send more picture of the detaile