Pen Cleaning, Ammonia With Additives?

[NewPenMan]

Is it OK to make a pen flush with ammonia which has been colored yellow and may have had lemon scent added?

 

The ammonia I have here is quite yellow, but all I smell is ammonia.

 

ammonia is added to pen flush bcs of its ink-dissolving properties..to rid a pen of every last bit of ink. would the presence of dye/coloring or lemon scent hurt this goal? Would weird deposits be left on the pen parts?

 

thank you!

 

npm

[tinta]

Do not use any coloured or lemon scented ammonia to make a flush solution.

[NewPenMan]

thank you!

[tinta]

I have read a number of posts on FPN that touched on this very topic.

If ammonia is to be used at all, clear plain ammonia is recommended to make a 10% strength "home made" flushing mixture.

 

Since I have had little call for a more aggressive flush than RO water, I just bought a large bottle of Perfect Flush from Goulet's, who now bottle their own ammonia mix. (no affiliation).

That bottle I have should last for a long, long time.

[FountainPages]

Use only clear,scentless and sudsless ammonia. It should be almost as clear as plain water and smell only of ammonia.

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

If you cannot find clear plain ammonia in your local market, kindly consider purchasing an FP flush, or a pen cleaning solution for technical pens, such as Koh-i-Noor Rapido-Eze.

 

Bye,

S1

[ThirdeYe]

I've used the lemon scented stuff before with no issues, fwiw, diluted of course.

[Regulateur]

I've used the lemon scented stuff before with no issues, fwiw, diluted of course.

I am also using lemon scented ammonia without any issue. Can't find plain ammonia locally. I don't understand why using scented ammonia is such a no-no:

 

1-) No lemon smell remains in the pen as you must rinse the pen with water after cleaning with ammonia

 

2-) And why nobody minds using dishwashing soap to clean new pens? To me, it is as scented and coloured than lemon scentd ammonia

 

I may be missing something. If so, help me understand so I stop torturing my pens.

[FOUR X FOUR]

I've used the lemon scented stuff before with no issues, fwiw, diluted of course.

Same here. I always hear that I should only use scent free, but I don't hear any reasons. I wander if it's also a bad idea to use scented inks?

[Sandy1]

Hi,

To see if any differentiation between types of ammonia could be made, I did a quick Google for household ammonia Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS), but my patience ran out before specific information was found, leaving me with the generic ‘sudsy ammonia includes detergent’.

I most certainly do not pretend to be any sort of Chemist, but my understanding is that adulterated ammonia contains ingredients that might not play well with some materials used in pens, especially sacs diaphragms adhesives and piston gaskets.

 

In addition, the additives might be persistent - influencing ink flow and material wetability, and may contaminate/degrade dyes - as opposed to pure ammonia which readily comes out of [aqueous] solution as a gas, hence leaves no residue.

Part of the caution against using sudsy/scented ammonia is that one really doesn’t know what those additives are: some may be proprietary, and [non-hazardous] ingredients may change without notice and/or vary by region. Consequently the risk exposure is unknown, so risk management becomes a matter of crossing one’s fingers.

I have no reason not to believe that some Members have used certain products with certain pens with nary a problem. My cautions for DIY pen cleaning chemistry tend to be rather strong, so I would not be so bold as to make a blanket endorsement of iffy unknown/variable products.

A similar approach can be extended to the use of household detergents (washing-up liquid) to clean-up pens and increase ink flow. IMHO those products might be useful as a troubleshooting measure to remove manufacturing residue that ammonia+surfactant won’t budge. Once that residue is removed, I support as-needed use of a DIY solution of plain ammonia with or without a benign surfactant, or products specifically formulated to be compatible with FPs, or the use of a cleansing ink, or an ultrasonic bath.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited June 30, 2015 by Sandy1

[NewPenMan]

Thank you, S1...nicely-stated, comprehensive and well-reasoned.

[Sandy1]

Thank you, S1...nicely-stated, comprehensive and well-reasoned.

 

Hi,

 

You're welcome!

 

I reckon that by sharing our knowledge experience and opinions we can make better choices along the way, hence enhance our FP experience.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited June 30, 2015 by Sandy1

[Ron Z]

You can make an effective pen flush using ammonia diluted in water 10%-20% and a few drops of Dawn dish detergent. The most popular pen flushes have ammonia and a surfactant = a detergent, which I would guess is most likely Dawn, diluted in water. Maybe distilled, maybe deionized, but still water. The guess about the detergent used is based on the general use of Dawn by long term collectors and pen repair people. A look at the MSDS for Dawn and RapidoEze both show a surfactant that is related, in about the same strength which is less than 5% IIRC. But we dilute the dish detergent, and don't always dilute the RapidoEze.

 

Now can you get away with sudsy ammonia, lemon scented? I can't say because I don't know what the detergent is, since I haven't looked at the MSDS for any of the brands out there. With clear ammonia readily available in the US, and as many trips as we make to a grocery store or some such place each week, I would wait just a bit for the stuff generally considered to be safe.

[NewPenMan]

I'm going with straight ammonia, filtered water and couple drops of mild dish liquid.

 

To me dawn seems very stripping, not just of what you want stripped. But of everything.

[Blackhorse]

Just whatever you do...for goodness sake do not mix ammonia with bleach!!! Doing so will release Chlorine gas...a very nasty poison.

[Sandy1]

I'm going with straight ammonia, filtered water and couple drops of mild dish liquid.

 

To me dawn seems very stripping, not just of what you want stripped. But of everything.

 

Hi.

 

The 'stripping' action is because of the detergent.

 

My DIY pen flush includes a B&W film wetting agent that is sufficiently benign that it is left to dry on the film, which has a delicate gelatine emulsion.

 

So what to do if one chooses to use sudsy/scented ammonia?

• Use an inexpensive / expendable pen as a test bed. I like the Platinum Preppy for that: It has many 'fins' in the collector which is mounted in a transparent section, so one can see what's going on.
• Acquire the MSDS of the specific product, then determine the actual ammonia concentration.
• Don eye protection and gloves. (The rest of your ensemble is up to you.)
• Start with a thorough plain water flush / soak. The cleaning solution is only going after the really stubborn bits, and those just might need to be only partially broken down so they can be subsequently removed by plain water.
• Use the ammonia at lowest effective concentration. Even though a 1 - 2% ammonia concentration is mentioned by the esteemed Mr Zorn, I start with a lower concentration, usually 0.5%, to determine if that does the necessary.
• To increase the effectiveness of the cleaning solution, add mechanical energy (shaking/rolling, flushing).
• Use the cleaning solution for the shortest possible time.
• Avoid or eliminate prolonged / static soaking in the cleaning solution - that's only for lasagna pans.
• -
• I'd modify my technique: A brief rinse with the cleaning solution, followed by a plain water flush, then repeat that alternating cycle with fresh cleaning solution until the final rinse water is clear. That should minimise 'penetration / stripping' by the cleaning solution (detergent) of any [semi] porous pen parts that are already ink-free.

Hopefully those suggestions will help lower the unknown risk exposure to off-label use of sudsy/scented ammonia; and may be extended to the formulation and use of a DIY pen cleaning solution where the ammonia concentration is independent of the washing-up liquid concentration.

 

Bye,

S1

 

__ __

MSDS Dawn: http://whatsinproducts.com//brands/show_msds/1/12187

MSDS Photo-Flo: http://msdsdigital.com/kodak-photo-flo-200-solution-msds

Edited July 2, 2015 by Sandy1

[RayCornett]

Truly pure ammonia is getting hard to find here in California. I see nothing now but clear with surfactants ( the stuff the makes it foam up when you shake the bottle). The last time I was able to find truly pure ammonia it was Las Totally Awesome Pure Ammonia at one of the dollar stores but now can not find it although according to the brand some do carry it. And even on Amazon the price for a jug can be nuts.

[Honeybadgers]

clear ammonia without EXCESSIVE additives, like fragrance or color, is fine. Surfactants won't hurt anything, if anything, they'll help clear the pen out.

 

Fragrance and color can seep into ebonite and latex, discolor celluloid, etc. If it's clear and fairly dilute, you're good.

 

I sometimes use a stiffer shot of ammonia when I'm cleaning a pen with ancient hardened ink. Most of the time, I don't even use ammonia more than once a year or two in a pen that sees regular use.

[RayCornett]

clear ammonia without EXCESSIVE additives, like fragrance or color, is fine. Surfactants won't hurt anything, if anything, they'll help clear the pen out.

 

Fragrance and color can seep into ebonite and latex, discolor celluloid, etc. If it's clear and fairly dilute, you're good.

 

I sometimes use a stiffer shot of ammonia when I'm cleaning a pen with ancient hardened ink. Most of the time, I don't even use ammonia more than once a year or two in a pen that sees regular use.

The main problem with surfactants, which are usually just soaps, is that some of us may be fine with *adding* something like Dawn dish soap to our DIY flush, but we don't know which soap they add to their ammonia as a surfactant. It could be a soap that is too strong/caustic. So, some avoid the ammonias with surfactants just to be safer. I, too, often use a stronger than the usual recipe amount of ammonia. Sometimes as high as 30% for stubborn or dried inks. Just a few minutes ago I finally got a Montblanc 149 clear of all the dried out Waterman Blue residue after flushing and soaking since Friday night.

Edited October 23, 2018 by RayCornett

[RayCornett]

If you have a Smart and Final store near you or are ok with ordering online , I discovered last night that they carry pure unscented ammonia with no surfactants. The brand is "First Street. It does list ingredients as water and ammonia. So, it is already diluted but I am not yet sure how diluted but am trying to find out..

 

UPDATE - I contacted First Street to see how much ammonia and how much water was in their Ammonia. This was their reply-

"Good Afternoon Ray,

The percentage of Ammonia in First Street Clear Ammonia is 4.762%

The suggested dilution rate is ½ cup per gallon of water for all-purpose use"

So, basically, almost no ammonia. I normally use a 20-30% solution. If I diluted their "ammonia" even more it wouldn't be worth using if it is now but It sure as heck smells pure......

Edited October 25, 2018 by RayCornett