Extra Extra Fine Hairlines

[Iso*]

Sub-forum description says I can discuss inks here. I discuss inks.

 

I was wondering if anyone here knows a good formula/formulation for an ink (and maybe paper) that would produce the finest hairlines possible.

 

I am looking for hairlines so fine and faint that they can't appear easily upon scanning. BUT are still seen by the naked eye.

 

//

 

I have seen the major ink tales:

 

Iron gall - Very fine hairlines, but eats at your nibs, and tends to be an ink that is alive, so to speak. Its a perishable ink, especially so if left over time.

 

Korean Ink - The late Madarasz's later used ink, after he switched from Arnold's writing fluid mixture. A form of stick ink ground down to be fine and consistent.

 

//

 

Does anyone have any tips on making my hairlines thinner and such? I am a left-handed, pointed pen user. I have some gum arabic, but I'm not quite sure on how to use so as to make my lines thinner. I am currently using a mixture of Higgins Eternal and dry Walnut ink in a Leonardt Principal EF, using the lightest pressure possible. I can show you a sample of my work, but I'll try to post that later-ish.

 

I have also heard that paper is a major factor too. What kinds of papers do you use for those doubly fine hairlines?

 

Fine Regards,

Iso*

[MusinkMan]

Iron Gall ink is the best that I know of to get those superfine spider web hairlines. It definitely is very hard on your nibs, but it will produce the kind of lines you are wanting if you have developed the necessary "touch". Leonardt Principal should do the trick along with iron gall. I have had the best luck with Blots brand iron gall, and Walker's Copperplate iron gall. You don't need to do anything to either of those inks...no gum Arabic or distilled water...they are excellent right out of the jar. And don't shake or stir them, just dip and go. Remember, the super light touch combined with free full arm movement will produce those lines you're after. You won't get them by "slowly and carefully" writing your script. Check out John DeColibus's technique in the below video. He is probably one of the best alive today. At the end of the video you will see his pen in action:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtiupZ2L_U8

 

[MusinkMan]

Oh, paper. Yes, very important to use good paper. Rhodia and Clairefontaine are excellent papers. There are others, but those are for sure very good.

 

Don't try it with notebook paper or copy paper...you will only find yourself frustrated and it will be nearly impossible to get consistently decent results.

 

Good luck!

[Iso*]

Hi Brian, and thanks for the rapid reply.

 

It seems whenever I mention my left handedness, many people refer me to Mr. DeCollibus. Incidentally, I have emailed him in the past. He's a pretty coool guy, and I have seen all of his visible videos a dozen times over.

 

It seems slightly unripe iron gall is the way to go. I found that using McCaffery's once, the ink has this really nice period when the ink shades an intense black, yet somehow has disgustingly sickly thin hairlines. I just love it. My main problem is that I don't use iron gall inks fast enough, so they often kinda age on me. Blots is tasteful in my opinion, and its a great ink. But after a month or so, the ink sours up.

 

Here's a quick picture I took of my current work, done about a day or so ago...

 

http://i.imgur.com/STMbAws.jpg

 

The word Masterfully was written in the aforementioned ink, a mixture of Higgins, dry walnut ink, and gum arabic. All diluted down to about 40% or lower. It was written on Strathmore's Calligraphy 400 Series with a wove finish using a ~45% worn Leonardt Principal. The lines that run vertically down are written about a month and a half ago, using an Esterbrook 356 and 40+ day old Blots Iron gall.

 

I have tried Rhodia/Clairefontaine, but the papers are often too smooth for me. This might just be an isolated incident, but it seems that such smooth papers are much more sensitive to pressure, with respect to hairlines. The slightest increase in pressure creates hairlines of near double weight! Though I write with barely any weight on the pen point, it seems that these smooth papers require an exceptionally light touch beyond my capacity currently. I'm guessing ~2-3 grams, since my writing pressure is about 4-7 grams of weight on the nib. Textured papers such as the one above seem to be less prone to this problem.

 

Have you played around with different formulations of ink, i.e. different ways of doctoring the ink after you have received it?

Edited June 25, 2015 by Iso*

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

As you find the coated writing papers, such as Rhodia and Clairefontaine Triomphe, 'too smooth', kindly consider using pounce to give those papers a bit of tooth, yet not so much that the benefit of the surface coating is lost.

 

Bye,

S1

[MusinkMan]

Hi Brian, and thanks for the rapid reply.

 

It seems whenever I mention my left handedness, many people refer me to Mr. DeCollibus. Incidentally, I have emailed him in the past. He's a pretty coool guy, and I have seen all of his visible videos a dozen times over.

 

It seems slightly unripe iron gall is the way to go. I found that using McCaffery's once, the ink has this really nice period when the ink shades an intense black, yet somehow has disgustingly sickly thin hairlines. I just love it. My main problem is that I don't use iron gall inks fast enough, so they often kinda age on me. Blots is tasteful in my opinion, and its a great ink. But after a month or so, the ink sours up.

 

Here's a quick picture I took of my current work, done about a day or so ago...

 

http://i.imgur.com/STMbAws.jpg

 

The word Masterfully was written in the aforementioned ink, a mixture of Higgins, dry walnut ink, and gum arabic. All diluted down to about 40% or lower. It was written on Strathmore's Calligraphy 400 Series with a wove finish using a ~45% worn Leonardt Principal. The lines that run vertically down are written about a month and a half ago, using an Esterbrook 356 and 40+ day old Blots Iron gall.

 

I have tried Rhodia/Clairefontaine, but the papers are often too smooth for me. This might just be an isolated incident, but it seems that such smooth papers are much more sensitive to pressure, with respect to hairlines. The slightest increase in pressure creates hairlines of near double weight! Though I write with barely any weight on the pen point, it seems that these smooth papers require an exceptionally light touch beyond my capacity currently. I'm guessing ~2-3 grams, since my writing pressure is about 4-7 grams of weight on the nib. Textured papers such as the one above seem to be less prone to this problem.

 

Have you played around with different formulations of ink, i.e. different ways of doctoring the ink after you have received it?

 

Oh Iso, I didn't realize it was you! haha You don't need any advice from me for sure! You've got the Spencerian/Zanerian styles down way better than me!

 

I have not messed with black formulations very much. I have played with walnut ink a bit...I have crystals and also some of the walnut liquid ink. I've goofed around with gum Arabic and distilled water in those (and also have experimented with dissolving the crystals into the liquid walnut ink instead of water). I liked that pretty well...was able to get a nice dark walnut, and still keep the viscosity down fairly well.

 

Nick D'Aquanno swears by the "double dip" method, in which you dip your pen into the ink, then dip it into water...then start writing. Nick has sent me letters in which he did this, and he achieved awesome lines. (Of course Nick has such a fine delicate touch, his stuff looks awesome anyway). Nick used Blots iron gall ink like this in the letters he sent me, but I think that he employs this technique with most inks. Brian Walker also told me to do it this way. I have tried it a little, but honestly not enough to really get a good assessment of how it worked for me. My honest opinion is that my touch is not sufficiently developed for me to profit from the double dip.

 

Recently, they have put the Ziller's powdered ink back on the market. Supposedly this is the same stuff from back in the old days...the same recipe I think? I have a bottle of the powder, but I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't mixed it or tried it yet. I have heard from several friends (all of which are good penmen) that it is quite good.

 

Now, a question for you if I may...what are you using for white ink? I'm using Dr. Martin's Bleedproof which I like very much. But I have trouble getting a consistent "mix". If you've ever used it, then you know it arrives in the consistency of toothpaste, and it must be mixed down in order for it to be of a useable consistency. The best mix I got was thinning it with water, and adding just a tad of raw egg white (albumin). This is advice that my good bud Jim Davis gave me, and he was advised this from the legendary Bill Lilly. I'm always looking for a good "white ink" recipe, so if you have something up your sleeve, please share it with me!

 

Thanks bro!

[dhnz]

Hi Iso

 

Great letterforms in your example and nice curves, showing some excellent whole arm movement.

 

Like you, I’m interested in getting hairlines as fine as the old masters used to get them, and by hairlines I mean very thin lines, not simply light lines. To this end, I’ve spent quite a bit of time trying to find the best combination of paper, ink, and nib.

 

For the nib, I like the modern-day Gillott 303; though not as flexible, it is slightly finer than the Leonardt Principal. (I find it finer even than the Gillott Principality.)

 

For the ink, I’ve tried various inksticks, though I haven’t found a source for Korean sticks, which a 2008 scientific paper still gave the edge to in terms of fineness of particulate size (lampblack, not charcoal sticks). However, you can just buy fine carbon pigment and make your own Indian ink with some gum arabic and I find this gives better results than the Japanese and Chinese sticks I’ve used. I’ve seen writing done with genuine Madarasz Korean ink and it does give fine lines but I think I prefer the look of iron gall ink, which can give just as fine lines. I would certainly recommend ditching the Higgins, which I’ve never got what I consider true hairlines out of.

 

I’ve tried several of the modern iron gall inks available and I’ve made batches to different recipes myself. I’ve also made Japan ink so that I could try the combination of Japan Ink and Arnold’s Ink that was used by penmen of old. They also used to combine Indian (carbon) ink and iron gall, which I’ve also done. I did try the ‘dip in water, then in iron gall ink’ method advocated by Brian Walker, even though logically I didn’t see how it could make a difference beyond slightly diluting the ink, as the ink ions moved into the extra water. Indeed, a very slight dilution was what I found, and as I prefer to make my ink up to the preferred dilution to start with, I quickly discarded that method. These days, I use the US Government ink recipe when I make up my ink, which I find to be as good as any. If you find your iron gall ink degrading too fast, I strongly recommend making your own. It’s easy, quick, and inexpensive, and you could make up ink powder and mix up only as much as you can use in a short time.

 

I also tried Ziller’s glossy black ink powder a few years ago when it came back on the market after hearing good things about it. It does give good hairlines, but I think this is due to a high level of gum arabic in the ink, which detrimentally affects its flow. I kept finding it drying on the nib too quickly. Plus, I’m not a fan of the glossy look.

 

For paper, I tried quite a few of the modern high-quality papers that people usually recommend, as well as a bunch of other no-name pads I found in local stores. Like you, I don’t like the very smooth papers; the ink seems to sit on the surface and very slightly spread, making it impossible to get truly fine hairlines. The best papers I have are writing pads dating from the 1970s (or earlier), when they were still making paper for fountain pens. I haven’t found anything modern that matches, sadly.

 

To sum up, I would recommend trying some old writing paper, iron gall ink, a Gillott 303, and a very light touch, using several pieces of balled-up then reflattened newspaper as a cushioning sheet. I also recommend trying to hold the pen the old-fashioned way, with the palm downwards and the little finger regulating the distance (and thus pressure) exerted on the paper. In other words, the usual advice!

[Iso*]

Hi again everyone,

 

I've been busy in the last few days with some chemical work, but anyways,

 

Thanks for your kind words. I've been able to master the forms to a fairly high degree, but the current problem is consistency. I plan on straightening posture, arranging for proper paper and face distance, etc. etc. When I do post images, they are oftentimes snippets of text, ergo body writing is the current focus of my development.

 

Okay, to reply to all of your tips and advises,

 

Sandy, I think I will take that up. I have heard that Schin was using something similar called gum sandarac. Apparently its used for the very same reason in drafting, and is subsequently called drafting powder. Even engineers have a lust for extra fine and extra crisp lines. And as such, I think it would be a binary, invariable kind of improvement. Thanks a lot for this suggestion. In comparison to other variables in ink, this would probably be the simplest to roll with.

 

//

 

Brian, thanks for your praise. It's been 30 months of adjusting from an anvil-weighted overhand to a half-featherweight properly adjusted underhand form.

 

Gum arabic seems to reduce the thickness from the hairlines a bit, i.e. get finer lines. Its a bit of trial and error, but considering that I have quite a quantity of it thanks to JNB, alongside a fine lot of vials and small containers, I should be able to refine gum arabic usage down to a science. It will take time, but given that its summer, I should be able to follow up on that within a few weeks or so. I might necropost on this thread.

 

Double-dip method? I have never heard of that. Very unusual. I should try that out. I can't say much more but to experiment with that technique. But I can confirm that a light touch is very important. I am currently working on that as well. I think I have about 60%+ mastery on arm movement, so I use less pressure on the pen point. I am guessing I will need to lighten up my hand by a few more grams in order to lessen nib wear and achieve even finer lines. Arm movement also is an extremely large factor in consistency I suspect. I will follow up on this once I get new IG inks.

 

Also, nib tips are also highly significant. I personally use Esterbrook 356s, and they seem to remain finer longer than Leonardt Principal EFs. However, they are less capable of large swells, but that isn't my concentration.

 

Ziller Inks - yes I have seen those around quite some bit. I haven't gotten any for myself yet, but I think it'll be an interesting prospect in the future as I expand my inks. Powdered form is probably the way to go, since I like to mix and use my inks numerically nowadays. I also have a scale.

 

White inks are rather a fussy lass. Black paper too. The current combo is Bleedproof White and Michael's store coloured cardstock paper. Interestingly, that combo has stood against various other tests and combinations. But then again, I don't play around with white ink too often. I prepare my current white ink as follows,

 

Begin with a dappen dish (i.e. some sort of small jar, from JNB) filled modestly ~60% with pure distilled water.

Add a very small amount of gum arabic. (roughly 30-50mg)

Use a microspatula and scoop small amounts of stock White Ink into the dappen dish. Go very slowly.

Test the ink by using coloured scratch paper often, and mix extremely frequently.

Continue until desired opacity.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't played with albumin or any other interesting additives, and I have only refined some of my white ink prep. More work will be needed to refine white ink prep. I'll maybe try some work with albumin though.

 

Side note however, I am fascinated by the fact that you are in connection with all of those wonderful penmen! I have a feeling that I am kind of that one penman who is rather far away alone in a hut with only pens, ink and paper ordered periodically from the internet. Which is actually mostly true. I might consider going to a IAMPETH Convention later in the years to come, but I wish to refine my hand to a higher degree first. I think I'll plateau my artistic penmanship skill in about two years.

 

//

 

Hello to you, dhnz,

 

Glad to hear we are in similar pages. I have a need for fine lines, but the word need is quite an understatement.

 

As for nib choice, I currently toy with the Esterbrook 356. But I try not to because they're vintage nibs, and not too easy to come by these days. I haven't yet tried the modern 303. Well, I actually have a long time ago, 24+ months, but was severely disappointed when I found 2 of the 5 nibs I purchased had tine/point problems. I am quite surprised that you found them to be finer than a Principality. I actually have one, but do not intend on using it any time soon. I'll probably look at the nibs when I can using a high-power microscope to compare.

 

I see that you read papers too. Particulate size is probably a crucial factor, and I haven't read much on how microscale properties affect hairlines. I am not so much a fluid physics person inasmuch as I am interested in chemical properties of things. Some things to consider if you continue to read papers are particle size suspensions and how they affect viscosity, viscosity's effects upon fluid capillary flow, and maybe perhaps various concentrations of particulates affecting capillary flow. If I have the time, I'll probably read up on this some time later... these days have just been getting busier for me.

 

About Higgin's ink... I only use it because its fairly inexpensive. It has a rather annoying cool tone to it, at least to me. I currently use a mixture of ink, with the primary component of black stemming from Higgin's ink. A lot of other things were adjusted for the word Masterfully you saw in my picture. To get the black balance correct, I had to use a warmer shade, and hence some walnut ink was mixed with it, in addition to some unknown amount of gum arabic, diluted down to 3 parts ink, 7 parts water currently (estimated, much has been used, and evaporation often took place, with only water being added, and no ink component has been re-added).

 

I don't think much beats iron gall. I have a feeling its something to do with the free ions floating around in the ink, but I haven't studied too much about ionic solutions and their effect on fluid properties. I should probably make some of my own IG. That way, I can probably more precisely modulate the inputs. China Blue dye however, is rather hard to come by for me at least. Probably have to do some real searching in the future.

 

As for papers, old papers generally are better than modern types. One thing I can say with some degree of certainty is that paper with more grain to it, and not being smooth actually retards the ink flow onto the paper, and ergo improves hairline thinness. But then again, since it detracts from the flow of ink onto the paper, its probably a thin fence between excellent hairlines and flow problems. For that reason, I use a paper with a texture to it - Strathmore's 400 Series Calligraphy. But considering that one side is significantly rougher than the other, it may be unusual switching between roughnesses. SN2 paper, as reviewed by Gourmet Pens and Stephen Brown have become excellent candidates for practice as the feel of the paper is pleasing. However, my hairlines do suffer a bit under the loupe on this paper.

 

(but old papers frequently beat modern paper for ink resilience, I think good paper has to have a delicate balance between resistance and ink absorption)

 

But yes, the usual guidelines for penning do follow. My writing pressure is fairly light, but could be lighter. I plan on lightening my hand down to maybe a 2-4 grams or so, which is about the weight of a nib alone or a few. Old paper generally rules. Have you tried onionskin paper? The source on thepapermillstore or whatever seems to have a texture to it, and also a very vintage feel to it. I am considering that paper soon.

 

//

 

Okay, that was a very long wall of text. More to come in future experimentation/fussing around.

[ac12]

As I recall, the 356 is a stiff school nib, so getting it to spread will require more force than you should, as it will start to scratch the paper.

[Iso*]

Hi,

 

Quick reply here...

 

A while ago, I devised a method of comparing relative flexibilities, but didn't have the time to publish the whole thing because its a whole mess of photos and a lot of text.

 

Basically, I face two nibs together at an angle and press. Since both nibs are receiving equal pressure, their tines can spread, and qualitatively compared, i.e. given a constant amount of pressure, how much with a nib spread in comparison to another nib under the same pressure?

 

It was a challenge to take some of the photos, but here's one of the comparisons I did between the Esterbrook 356 and Leonardt Principal EF.

 

http://i.imgur.com/yullCYP.jpg

 

As you can see, both nibs flex quite a lot, but the Leonardt Principal spreads a bit more. I would say that, with regards to flexibility, they are both very soft, that is, both take very little pressure to produce a shade on paper. The Leonardt Principal probably takes less pressure to spread the tines, however. I just like the 356 because of the way it flexes and because of how fine it is, and its behaviour over time.

 

I use the Esterbrook 356 from the Art and Drafting Series that Esterbrook released sometime in the 1940s. Perhaps you could be referring to the 556 School Medium Firm nib?

[mvarela]

Hi,

 

Quick reply here...

 

A while ago, I devised a method of comparing relative flexibilities, but didn't have the time to publish the whole thing because its a whole mess of photos and a lot of text.

 

Basically, I face two nibs together at an angle and press. Since both nibs are receiving equal pressure, their tines can spread, and qualitatively compared, i.e. given a constant amount of pressure, how much with a nib spread in comparison to another nib under the same pressure?

 

It was a challenge to take some of the photos, but here's one of the comparisons I did between the Esterbrook 356 and Leonardt Principal EF.

 

http://i.imgur.com/yullCYP.jpg

 

As you can see, both nibs flex quite a lot, but the Leonardt Principal spreads a bit more. I would say that, with regards to flexibility, they are both very soft, that is, both take very little pressure to produce a shade on paper. The Leonardt Principal probably takes less pressure to spread the tines, however. I just like the 356 because of the way it flexes and because of how fine it is, and its behaviour over time.

 

I use the Esterbrook 356 from the Art and Drafting Series that Esterbrook released sometime in the 1940s. Perhaps you could be referring to the 556 School Medium Firm nib?

This is simply brilliant!