Stipula Etruria Nibs

[Roger]

All I know about specialty nibs is what Richard Binder has published in his mini essays on nibs at his website. At the moment, I own none, BUT that will change!

 

Sometime soon (he says, as he struggles to draw a proper breath because of the excitement), Giardino Italiano will send along my Etruria 991. Just another pedestrian F nib will be attached to it, BUT there will come a time when I will want to order a nib for it that will compliment italic writing skills as yet unattained.

 

Binder makes the reader aware that various pen and nib people often operate with different vocabularies as to what means what. Now to the question.

 

Nib choices for the Etruria are listed as: Two-tone 18 kt gold nib, available as EF, F, M, B. To request, also the special OB, OBB, and the Stub (0,9 - 1,1 - 1,3), and 52°.

 

The first bunch, EF through B are self explanatory, as are the last series of stubs in various widths. What does Stipula mean when they say, "OB and OBB" Are those right or left footed (in Binder's terms) obliques? An oblique has to be either left or right footed, not? Does Stipula assume a right handed writer therefore their OB is a left footed oblique which is the most common choice of the right handed writer?

 

I haven't even mentioned that puzzle called the 52° at the end of the offerings. Though Wim has one, he confesses to not knowing exactly what he has.

 

Man, it's tough being new!

[Bryan]

I purchased my Etruria with a 52 degree nib. Interesting nib. It wrote with a broad stroke, though instead of the usual rounded tipping of a "B" nib, it has a rounded tip with a flat spot at a slight angel, (I'm guessing a 52 degree angel). I didn't much care for the broad, wet line it produced, no variation horizontally or vertically. I sent it back and had it replaced with a 1.3 italic. Now this is a sweet nib, more of a cursive italic.

 

Bryan

Edited June 13, 2005 by Bryan

[Roger]

I purchased my Etruria with a 52 degree nib.  Interesting nib.  It wrote with a broad stroke, though instead of the usual rounded tipping of a "B" nib, it has a rounded tip with a flat spot at a slight angel, (I'm guessing a 52 degree angel).  I didn't much care for the broad, wet line it produced, no variation horizontally or vertically.  I sent it back and had it replaced with a 1.3 italic.  Now this is a sweet nib, more of a cursive italic.

 

Bryan

Hi Bryan,

 

Do you mean that you must rotate the nib with respect to the paper to be on the sweet spot? If so, you'd have to rotate CW or CCW depending on which direction the 52° angle is cut.

 

You mean what they call the 1.3 stub? Or was this a nib choice for another Etruria than the Etruria 991?

 

Any idea on what their definition of the OB and OBB nibs are?

 

I guess I could email Susanna at Giardino Italiano. Better yet, go over and see her!

[Leslie J.]

Roger, I think a cursive italic or stub nib would definitely help you to learn italic writing. Much easier to do with an italic nib to start with.

 

I don't know about the OB and OBB. I have a OBB Pelikan nib, and it's called an oblique double broad. It definitely produces a double broad line. I imagine the oblique nibs are all left footed, which is more commonly used than a right footed oblique. (I can't use LFO's myself, just RFO's) Just guessing, although it would seem logical that the systems would be similar. Factory Pelikan Oblique nibs do not offer much differentiation in writing experience from regular production nibs. Don't know about Stipulas. (Where's Wim?)

 

When/if you're thinking of having a nib converted to some sort of italic, you should start with a nib of the desired broadness that you prefer. A B nib may be turned into a 1.1mm italic, a F nib into a .6mm (these are just rough examples, and I'm talking Pelikan again). Richard did a .6mm stub out of a F nib for me, and the result is called an EF stub in Richard's terminology.

Edited June 14, 2005 by Leslie J.

[Bryan]

Hi Roger,

 

Yes, there was definitely a sweet spot on the 52 degree nib, otherwise it felt very scratchy. In all honesty, I don't think I ever figured out the thing. That's why I sent it back. I've never found out what the big draw to this type of nib would be. Yes, a very broad line, but no variation. Why not just go with a broad nib where you have a smoother rounded surface to work with? The 52 just didn't work for me.

 

Fountain Pen Hospital advertises the Etruria with options of .9, 1.1, and 1.3 Italics. 1.3 being the broadest with the most line variation. My experience with the Etruria nibs is they are ground more to a cursive italic rather then italic. Which for me, is just perfect. Quite smooth yet they have great line variation. I use the Palmer cursive method and keep my nibs at a 45 degree angle on the paper. This produces some very nice line variation which I really like.

 

I have never tried an Oblique nib. I've heard they work great for a left handed person or for someone looking to add a little flair to their writing. Leslie is right that these nibs are shaped like a "left foot".

 

So do you plan to keep your fine nib and order a new nib or send the pen in for a nib exchange? I'd drop Luxury Brands an email to see if they are still working with Stipula to do this type of service. Otherwise you'd be sending your pen off to Italy and probably would see your pen for a month or two.

 

Take Care,

 

Bryan

Edited June 14, 2005 by Bryan

[Roger]

Thanks, Leslie J and Bryan for the input.

 

What I was referring to is the fact that the Etruria 991 doesn't advertise their 0.9, 1.1 and 1.3 as Italic nibs. They call them "stubs" Now, obviously, a stub will produce a lesser italic effect, imo, than a cursive italic and that, a lesser effect than a crisp or sharp italic nib. In other Stipula ads, they *do* refer to the same widths as "Italic" nibs. Is this just inconsistency in their ad copy, meaning that they are referring to the same nibs in each case or do their equal width stubs differ from their italic nibs?

 

I intend to just order another italic or stub to compliment the F that is coming with the pen. Wim tells me that the change out is easy, the nib and feed being a "screw out" affair.

 

Oh and I received FedEx info just a while ago that the 991 should be in the air as we write! :bunny1:

[wimg]

Hi all,

 

Sorry for my absence, but work was calling.

 

The OB and OBB are broad and double broad left footed oblique stubs, IOW, they have some line variation, but not a lot.

 

The Pelikan M200 OBB has no line variation whatsoever, btw, at least, not as far as I could discover. It just has a slightly towards the left inclined flat spot. Other than that, it is just an extremely big ball nib. Ideal as a starting point for any other nib format .

 

Anyway, back to Stips. I received my 2 991s from Giardino already last Thursday . One came with a 0.9 nib, and I must say, compared to my other 0.9, this looks more like a stub. It isn´t a cursive, just a narrow stub, a fat italic if you like. I haven´t had time to study the nib in detail yet, and compare it to my other 0.9 Stip nib. The latter is definitely narrower, though. I need to study it in more detail, however, because I am using it with the wettest flowing ink I have ever come across so far, namely Swisher (fast dry) Cocoa. Wow, what a flow. Beautiful colour though, just like a nice Milka milk chocolate bar. It does go well with the pen . Hmmm, where do I have my chocolate bars now?

 

The other italic nibs I have from Stip, IOW, the mentioned 0.9, the 1.1 and the 1.3 are all cursive or maybe semi-cursive italics. Great nibs to write with, IMO, and I have all pens that use them inked all the time . Line variation is very good, but obviously less so in the 0.9, simply because the narrow lines are all about the same, while the wide lines are getting wider. I prefer M nibs for my handwriting, and therefore use the 1.1 more than the others. It just comes more natural to me, character sizewise. Because of its wide base, the 1.3 is slightly harder to write with than the 0.9 or 1.1, because it is more difficult to keep the whole width of the nib on the paper at all times.

 

The 52 degree nib, I reckon, is indeed most comfortable at a 52 degree writing angle, although generally, it feels like an extremely smooth 2B or even 3B nib to me. I don´t think I have anything smoother than this nib, with any ink I have tried with it. I used it in several of the ink reviews.

 

I am not entirely enamored of the OB nib I have (no OBB yet), because the sweet spot is rather narrow, and I find it very hard to position it correctly. I always thought I wouldn´t have any problems with oblique nibs, because of my experiences with Pelikan oblique nibs, but the angles on the Stip ones are a little (ok, a lot ) steeper, therefore making it more of an art to write with them if you don´t have the natural inclination to turn your nibs towards the left.

 

The EF is surprisingly smooth and pleasant to write with, just that I don´t care too much for very tiny writing . The F is very smooth indeed, as is the M, and I reckon the B too, but I haven´t inked that one up yet beyond a little dip. That did feel very smooth though, but I need to experience a little more writing before I can come to a proper conclusion.

 

Ok, HTH, warm regards, Wim the Tuscan

[wimg]

Hi Roger,

Thanks, Leslie J and Bryan for the input.

 

What I was referring to is the fact that the Etruria 991 doesn't advertise their 0.9, 1.1 and 1.3 as Italic nibs. They call them "stubs" Now, obviously, a stub will produce a lesser italic effect, imo, than a cursive italic and that, a lesser effect than a crisp or sharp italic nib. In other Stipula ads, they *do* refer to the same widths as "Italic" nibs. Is this just inconsistency in their ad copy, meaning that they are referring to the same nibs in each case or do their equal width stubs differ from their italic nibs? 

As mentioned above, I think I have discovered this inconsistency too, but then for real. Ok, call me a nerd, or mad for that matter , but as I always have my 22X PEAK loupe with me anyway, I looked at them side-by-side. And yes, the 991 0.9 is a lot more stubbish than the Etruria Amber one, the thickness of the nib is almost twice that of the other. Well, no problem for me . Adjustment is easy .

 

I intend to just order another italic or stub to compliment the F that is coming with the pen. Wim tells me that the change out is easy, the nib and feed being a "screw out" affair.

Yes, similar to the Pelikan nib/feed assemblies. And if you want a "real" italic, better order an "Etruria" 0.9 italic, rather than a "991" 0.9, I think now.

 

Oh and I received FedEx info just a while ago that the 991 should be in the air as we write!  :bunny1: 

Ah, great, congrats! Let us hear what happens next!

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Roger]

Great guys! Thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

 

I now have a good compilation of the facts as we know them, the speculation of what in the blazes Stip means in their ad copy, and Wim's actual 'hands on' conclusions based on actually putting the various nibs to paper.

 

Suffice to say, Stip needs to commission someone to sit down and come up with a good set of definitions of what their nibs really are, and maintain the wording throughout their entire product line.

 

My inclination, now, is to later buy either a 0.9 or a 1.1 mm Italic nib from their Amber line. That would likely translate to a 0.9 or a 1.1 cursive italic in Richard's nomenclature, if I'm understanding correctly. Does that sound about right, Wim? Or, I could just enjoy the 991 with the F nib and get Richard or John to do one for my Pel M250. Het maakt niets uit!

 

Whew! I think this forum can now return to its normal programing. Thanks for putting up with the pitiful bleating of a newbie 'in over his head'.

[wimg]

Hi Roger,

 

Whaddoyoumean? Back to normal programming? I thought we were just doing that!

 

Anyway, just a correction regarding Stip italics: I am at home now, rather than at work (yes, another much too long day at the office), and I think the light must have misled me. They seem to be very much equal in size with proper lighting. Sorry for the earlier misleading statement. Next time I will take my time to look properly before uttering such potentially misleading statements.

 

So, I got out the calipers, and measured both nibs, on the tipping, i.e., the width and lenght the way it touches the paper, which does mean the width at the top, and the maximum thickness of the tipping. They are both 0.90 mm by 0.35 mm, with an accuracy of the calipers of 0.025 mm.

 

I did the same for the 1.1 italic, which gave as result 1.10 by 0.35 mm, and the 1.3, resulting in 1.275 by 0.375 mm

 

This actually means that you get probably a 2.7:1 ratio out of the 0.9, which is just italic, not stubby, be it not very sharp. For the 1.1 that is about 3.1 to 1, definitely italic, and the 1.3 about 3.3 to 1.

 

So the next test: the writing, on José's width chart. Here is the result (measurements, H = horizontal, V = vertical):

Etruria 991 0.9: ............. V 0.85 mm - H 0.425 mm (ratio 2.0 : 1)

Etruria Amber 0.9: ......... V 0.85 mm - H 0.375 mm (ratio 2.3 : 1)

Etruria d'Inverno 1.1: .... V 1.05 mm - H 0.35 mm (ratio 3.0 : 1)

Etruria Ocean Blue 1.3: . V 1.25 mm - H 0.375 mm (ratio 3.3 : 1)

 

So, sorry for misleading you a bit , but this is the final result. And I reckon the difference in horizontal line thickness between 991 and Amber is purely caused by the very wet ink the 991 is loaded with, Swisher Cocoa, vs Ottoman Rose in the Amber. In the d'Inverno I have Ottoman Azure, which is not very wet as an ink, and the Ocean Blue still carries Stipula Calamo, since the review . The latter two are not very wet inks, compared to the Cocoa. Too early to draw any conclusions yet, but it seems like a wet ink especially has influence on the horizontals.

 

N.B.: All of this was done on cheap quality laser printer paper. On better paper the differences between the two 0.9s seem more pronounced.

Also note the difference between actual nib width and line is 0.05 mm, in all cases. This is interesting, because it shows, with the caliper measurements, exactly how Stipula measures their nibs. Richard Binder actually measures the line width, which mens his nibs may be slightly wider than expected, plus he very likely measures with Waterman Blue Black, which, I reckon, may give similar results to inks like Stipula Calamo and Ottoman Azure, but not like Swisher Cocoa.

 

Finally, the big piston converters certainly seem to be unique to the 991s: they are made of copper and plastic, and slightly narrower than the later big piston converters, which seem to be made of aluminium (?) and plastic.

 

So, the 991 converters are nicer. Maybe I should check whether they fit the newer models too.

 

Anyway, on with the normal programming!

 

Warm regards, Wim

 

edit: added the red, bold highlight

Edited June 14, 2005 by wimg

[Roger]

Wow! As the saying goes, "If you want to get a job done, ask a busy person". I surely didn't mean to galvanize you into such a frenzied pursuit, but believe me, it is appreciated!

 

I selected your text and printed it so that I could 'work it over' in my antiquated way. See, I'm so old that when I went to school, there were no computers (except Enivac at the U. of PA) and I can't bring myself to work on a situation unless I have pencil (nowadays pen) and paper in front of me. And to you wise guys out there (with apologies to Viseguy) no, I'm not using a slide rule. I've long been using a modern calculator for such tasks.

 

Other than your generous rounding off, I dig your numbers and understand your methods. Gees, a line chart and everything. I hope you didn't scratch any of those tipping materials with those calipers. Maybe a swipe or three on the smoothing film is in order. Me, I use a glass turned upside down. Can't remember where I read that, but it was from one of the girls here. Thanks, whomever it was.

 

With the variations you have uncovered, it makes me wonder whether Stipula really has much going in the way of QC between the lines. Even within the same product, it would be interesting to crunch the numbers on, say, 5 examples of the same product and nib. Wonder how they grind those nibs before setting them into the pen for shipment. I almost believe that John and Richard can be as consistent by sitting to their table and doing their 'hand job'. Stop that laughing!

 

Still, as long as I can get a good smooth 1.1mm cursive italic nib/feed from Stip, no matter what they may call it, that may be the way to go. Knowing me, I'm likely to get the same thing from either of the nibmeisters for my Pel M250. Heck, I might want another ink on a page, but with similar characteristics. The possibilities boggle the mind.

 

You are a piece of work, Wim. I truly appreciate your work ethic and dilligence. I owe you one!

 

The devil with the regular programing. This is more fun!

[wimg]

Hi Roger,

Wow! As the saying goes, "If you want to get a job done, ask a busy person".

It's just unfortunate they have discovered the same thing at work

I surely didn't mean to galvanize you into such a frenzied pursuit, but believe me, it is appreciated! 

Well, I didn't think it was particularly frenzied; I just wanted, needed to know now .

 

I selected your text and printed it so that I could 'work it over' in my antiquated way. See, I'm so old that when I went to school, there were no computers (except Enivac at the U. of PA) and I can't bring myself to work on a situation unless I have pencil  (nowadays pen) and paper in front of me. And to you wise guys out there (with apologies to Viseguy) no, I'm not using a slide rule. I've long been using a modern calculator for such tasks. 

Hey! I used a slide rule at secondary school! No calculators for us . And computers, well, towards the end of my 10-year study at uni I got into computers only .

 

Other than your generous rounding off,

I dig your numbers and understand your methods. Gees, a line chart and everything.

I've got the line chart on my server somewhere, will look it up later today. José on PenTrace was so crazy to make it .

I hope you didn't scratch any of those tipping materials with those calipers.

Hey! I am very careful with my fountain pens in general, and my Stips in particular! And reasonably thorough, too. I checked afterwards, obviously. And I did measure at least 10 X each, of course, always being the scientific one .

Maybe a swipe or three on the smoothing film is in order. Me, I use a glass turned upside down.

Ouch! Please don't. Rough that is!

Can't remember where I read that, but it was from one of the girls here. Thanks, whomever it was. 

 

With the variations you have uncovered, it makes me wonder whether Stipula really has much going in the way of QC between the lines.

I don't understand this. I think the variation is virtually non-existent. The only variation I got I am sure is caused by the ink. I think 1/40 of a mm difference on the quoted physical width, is very good. :blink:

Even within the same product, it would be interesting to crunch the numbers on, say, 5 examples of the same product and nib. Wonder how they grind those nibs before setting them into the pen for shipment. I almost believe that John and Richard can be as consistent by sitting to their table and doing their 'hand job'.  Stop that laughing! 

 

Still, as long as I can get a good smooth 1.1mm cursive italic nib/feed from Stip, no matter what they may call it, that may be the way to go. Knowing me, I'm likely to get the same thing from either of the nibmeisters for my Pel M250. Heck, I might want another ink on a page, but with similar characteristics.

I'll measure my 2 RB italic nibs tonight, if I get a chance.

The possibilities boggle the mind.

 

You are a piece of work, Wim.

That's what other people tell me too. They may just mean it in a slightly different way .

I truly appreciate your work ethic and dilligence.

Thank you for the compliment!

I owe you one!

Nope.

 

The devil with the regular programing. This is more fun! 

This is the regular programming, no?

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Roger]

Yeah, frenzied was too specific a word. One person's frenzy may be another's normal pace.

 

Yes, let me at that line chart. The only such item I have is that which Richard has at his site. Perhaps it's all that is necessary.

 

No glass bottom? Sure, it is silica, but nicely rearranged so as to be very smooth to my touch, at least. And, I'm not exactly leaning hard on it. Seems to work fine. Eventually, though, I'll get equipped here with the right stuff.

 

Another bad syntactical construction. Didn't mean variation in your measured results. Rather, the variation in Stip's wording with respect to calling them stubs at 0.9. 1.1 and 1.3 when laying out the options for the 991, versus calling them Italics in the same widths for certain other fps in the Stip lineup.

 

Yes, my use of "piece of work", in this case, had no negative connotations, whatsoever, only complimentary! I need to go back to school and relearn English!

[Johnny Appleseed]

Wow! As the saying goes, "If you want to get a job done, ask a busy person".

 

Better yet, ask a Mad one.

 

I think we need a new diagnosis for the DSM V (the official diagnostic manual for mental illnesses) - Obsessive Pen Disorder.

 

For another viewpoint in regards to the Stub vs. Italic question, see the article "Stub and Italic" by George Kovalenko on Richard B's website. He argues, using historical patent data, that a stub nib was originally another word for an italic and that the modern distinction between stub and italic is historically meaningless. Don't know that I agree with him - I think it is a useful distinction from the standpoint of how the two write - but it is an interesting point (so to speak) he makes.

 

Johnny Appleseed

[Roger]

Thanks for that reference, Johnny. I thought I had Richard Binder's website memorized, but, by George, I managed to miss that one by Kovalenco.

[wimg]

Hi Roger, and all

 

As promised, the nib width charts by José (he did 2; I prefer the on eover the other for different nib widths):

Old nibwidths chart

New nibwidths chart

Just note that you have to set the printer to print at full size, no cropping, scaling, whatsoever....

 

Furthermore, also as promised, a few more measurements I did, in a little table.

 

........................................... nib .............................. line

nib ..................................... width .... thickness ..... width (V) .... thickness (H) ... ratio ... ink

RB cursive italic 0.9 mm ...... 0.95 ....... 0.225 ......... 0.85 ........... 0.30 ................. 2.8 ..... MB Burgundy

RB Italifine italic .................. 1.10 ....... 0.30 ........... 0.70 ........... 0.25 ................. 2.8 ..... PR Spearmint

RB Italifine fine ................... 1.10 ....... 0.30 ........... 0.30 ........... 0.25 ................. 1.2 ..... PR Spearmint

RB 30 deg crisp italic B ....... 1.10 ....... 0.20 ........... 0.90 ........... 0.20 ................. 4.5 ..... WM Blue Black

Pel ItaliStub Italic B ............ 1.20 ....... 0.40 ........... 1.15 ........... 0.45 ................. 2.6 ..... MB Burgundy

Pel ItaliStub Stub M ............ 1.20 ....... 0.40 ........... 0.65 ........... 0.325 ............... 2.0 ..... MB Burgundy

 

Note that the double nibs, i.e, the RB Italifine and the Pel ItaliStub (my own grind ) are thicker than the horizontal line they draw. The Italifine Italic and Italifine fine is therefore the same nib, but turned 180 degrees, around its length axis,and so is the Pel ItaliStub Italic B and Pel ItaliStub Stub M. Obviously, that is because they are double nibs. If you want to measure the parts that form the individual nibs, as it were, you need a microscope.

 

The 30 degree crisp italic is very difficult to write with, btw. It is really sharp, and the nib needs to be rotated and turned qute a lot. I measured the whole width of the slanted part of the nib for this one, btw.

 

HTH, warm regards, Wim

[Roger]

Another tour de force by the Wimer! Thanks from both me and, I'm sure, a bunch of lurkers.

 

If I'm not careful, and knowing myself as I do, I could easily get caught up in the technical aspects of nibs. In reality, I want to learn a new and more readable and attractive hand. What I must do when the next, but new book arrives (the used copy of John Eager's book being marked up to the point of not being usable) is to sit and start writing! I can learn the letters with any nib available to me. When I get to a show or two and have a chance to try the special nibs, I'll be part way there, and the addition of a special nib or two will be more worthwhile.

 

I hope you have duly entered you measurments in your lab journal so that the next newbie that pops in can benefit without requiring you do do it all over again. :bonk:

 

BTW, the Etruria 991 arrived just before lunch, today. It is flat out gorgeous! No chance to flush and put the 'primer' to work, yet. Got unexpectedly busy with the news that our 46 year old daughter had emergency surgery today for severe abdominal pain. They explored laproscopically (sp?), found a telescoped portion of the colon, opened her up, cut it out and stapled the two ends back together. Imagine she and I are now both without a piece of that plumbing. I had acute diverticulitis 3 years ago and lost 12 inches; she likely didn't have to part with as much. Good thing we have over 3 feet of that pipe in us! Only thing is that mine was elective and I was cleaned out and in pristine condition, whereas she was on the table without warning, so the E. coli bugs have to be reckoned with.

 

Sorry about that. I get off on tangents too easily.

[wimg]

Hi Roger,

 

I really hope your daughter is feeling a lot better today. Please send her my best wishes!

 

Warm regards, Wim

[Guest Denis Richard]

Best wishes of speedy recovery to your daughter, Roger. It always amazes me how many parts we can have cut off and still function almost as well. I think the design engineer was a bit overzealous

 

Denis.

[Roger]

Thanks, guys. She's doing well. Told us on the phone yesterday, that I won! She only had 8 inches removed!

 

Darn, I forgot to ask whether she was stitched or stapled back together. I was stapled, but assured by the surgeon that it would not be a problem at airport security.