EF or EEF nibs

[thw]

Dear all readers and experts,

 

As a new member to the forum, i have a few questions about EF or EEF nibs. I love EF nibs myself and is in the process of acquiring a EEF nib. I apologise before hand if my questions have been discussed previously or simply reflect my ignorance of the subject.

 

My questions are:

1) Do large pens (eg M1000 or Omas Paragon) with EF nibs (larger nibs) tend to write a wider line comparing to a smaller pen of the same brand with EF nib?

 

2) Does regrinding of the nib to EEF reduces the lifespan of the tip?

 

3) Does heavy writing pressure or a heavier pen accelerates the wearing of a EEF nib?

 

4) What size nib(medium or Fine) do people send off for regrinding into EF or EEF? Is there a difference in the final result of the nib or the working life of the tip?

 

5) Does regrinding increase the tooth of a extra fine nib?

 

6) Is there a particular brand of pens that suits regrinding into EF or EEF nib?

 

 

 

Thank you all for your expert opinions!

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2007 by thw

[Ged]

I'll answer what I think I have an answer to

 

1) Depend on the nib itself, the body size is no indication of the width of the writing point. Nib sizes vary from maker to maker, and even from nib model to nib model within a particular maker.

 

3) If you have a heavy hand when writing an XXF or XF may not be for you... The tipping material of FP's tends to be pretty hardy, you'll probably damage the tines first, unless you drop the pen nib first or jam it into a lid (in which case you're stuffed anyhow). There are F and XF nibs from 60-80 years ago on vintage pens that work well. Taken care of, your nib will last, and last, and last.

 

5) See 3), an XF or XXF nib requires a light touch and particular style of writing, otherwise you'll send your pen through the page, into your fingers, other people's fingers, and it may call your mother names too. Well, maybe not the last bit. A professionally ground nib with the correct writing style for that size nib won't give you any problems. Straight from the factory nibs may be somewhat scratchier than M's or B's. The most important thing is probably the touch you use when writing, if you have a heavy hand... an XF or finer is probably going to cause you grief. If you're not sure how heavy you write, visit an art store, buy a cheap plastic pen holder and a cheap pointed dip nib, like a Gillott 303 or Hunt 101 or 56, theyre quite fine, and will give you an idea of how lightly you have to touch the page.

[Phthalo]

1) They shouldn't, but often they do.

 

2) A person would have to be doing a vast amount of writing to wear out a nib in their lifetime. If the tipping material is scant to begin with, the nib may be toothy over time. This would occur more frequently with a vintage pen rather than a modern pen.

 

3) Doubt it, but you won't do the nib any favours, and may push the tines out of alignment eventually if you write with a heavy hand.

 

4) Any size nib can be ground down to XF / XXF. No.

 

5) If you mean will the tooth increase if you grind an XF to an XXF, then yes, you will certainly get more feedback.

 

6) No. In a month, I'll have 10 new nibs - Steel, 14K and 18K Needlepoints from Pelikan, Montegrappa, Lepine, Lamy and Omas, all customised by Richard Binder. Anything goes - if the nib has sufficient tipping material, it can be reground!

 

Needlepoint nibs aren't for everyone, though. I write with a very light hand, and have very small writing - often my lowercase letters are around 1mm high.

 

There's a lot of specific information about Extra Fine nibs in the FPN archives too.

Edited April 8, 2007 by Phthalo

[Mudge]

QUOTE (Phthalo @ Apr 8 2007, 02:22 PM)

Needlepoint nibs aren't for everyone, though. I write with a very light hand, and have very small writing - often my lowercase letters are around 1mm high.

One millimetre? Far out. Just as well I never have to read your writing, I'd probably pass out with the strain.

 

...but then my preferred weapon is a B italic, and I write large enough for a blind man to read.

[meanwhile]

Short of a nibmeister, I don't think anyone knows more about xf nibs than Pthalo. I'll just add that different manufacturers use different nib width classifications, and that Sailor, Pilot, and vintage Sheaffers - especially those with Triumph nibs - all have especially excellent reputations for XF and XXF nibs. Otoh I'd stay away from Pelikan XFs (some are very poor) and Lamy 2000's (the XF is more like a Medium) that haven't been meistered, although these are manufacturers with otherwise excellent reputations.

 

Btw, a Sailor XF is an XXF out of the box and considered very hard to improve on. I *think* the same might be true of the Pilot 823 F (even the B is said to be a Medium Fine...)

 

On reflection, if you want an especially robust XXF, then a Triumph nibbed Think Snorkel could be the best pen. They're cheap on ebay and that nib design is outstanding. Of the nibgrinders people usually recommend, I suspect that Deb Kinney's waiting list is still the shortest. My own Debbified Go is excellent.

Edited April 8, 2007 by meanwhile

[thw]

Hello Ged,

Thank you very much for your advice!

 

I tend to be a fast writer and document on average fifteen pages of A4 at work per day. My writing is fast but small. So, anything bigger than fine will slow me down as i have to delibrately write big to make it readable.

 

I also enjoy drawing with pen and i like to draw with F or EF pens as there is more control with drawing especially the finer details. The artist pen with 0.3mm point tend to have inkflow problems when drawing. I just realise my FPs do not have a flow problem. May be i should consider a music or zoom nib for that purpose. Are there lots of pens specially designed for drawing?

 

From memory there were not that many 'proper' pen stores in Brisbane 12 years ago. I spent nine years in Brisbane previously and still a big fan of 'Broncos', Reds and the Lions. I will never support the Blues.

 

Nice to meet you, Ged.

[Ged]

We have a pen shop named The Pen Shoppe now. Pens are horribly priced, inks are ok The Bronco's are doing ok I think, but the Lions are currently top of the table. I'm not a big sports buff though

 

For needlepoint advice, Phthalo knows all! I thought I liked fine nibs... in comparison to Phthalo's, my nibs are chunky beef burgers.

[MYU]

Yes, I'd have to agree -- Phthalo is our resident afficionado on extra-extra-fine nibs. Excellent advice.

 

If you're also considering pens without customization, you may want to go with a vintage Japanese pen (like Pilot, Platinum, or Namiki). Their nib sizes tend to run smaller than Western made pens. I have a Pilot Volex with a fine nib that really writes more like an XF (extra fine) -- yet it's smooth, consistent, and has enough tooth for control without feeling scratchy.

 

Parker also made some nice fine points. I have a 51 that writes almost as small as a Volex.

[thw]

QUOTE

Doubt it, but you won't do the nib any favours, and may push the tines out of alignment eventually if you write with a heavy hand.

 

Thanks Laura. You have cleared my misconception of heavy pen will wear the iridium tip quicker. Perhaps i have totally underestimated the strength of the iridium tip.

 

 

QUOTE

If you mean will the tooth increase if you grind an XF to an XXF, then yes, you will certainly get more feedback.

Is the feedback likely to be less with 18K vs a 14K nib when grind to an XXF?

 

 

QUOTE

In a month, I'll have 10 new nibs - Steel, 14K and 18K Needlepoints from Pelikan, Montegrappa, Lepine, Lamy and Omas, all customised by Richard Binder.

 

Wow,wow,wow.....

Can you notify us and post the writings with the new regrind nibs on the forum or on your blog for all to see...

 

I think i just barely scratch the surface of the resources about EF or EEF nibs available on this site. When is the next long weekend?

[thw]

Thanks Jonathan,

 

QUOTE

Btw, a Sailor XF is an XXF out of the box and considered very hard to improve on.

 

Hopefully my first Sailor Sapporo with EF nib will come to hand next week. Will test drive it side by side with my first Stipula Etrutria with EF nib (strangely no serial number) that i receive today from Italy.

Nakaya is still six weeks away.

[MYU]

Hi THW - you will find that how toothy a nib is depends more on how it is ground and sized than the material composition. I've seen a number of postings about steel nibs being quite smooth writers. I think that composition can contribute towards flex vs. firmness (as 22k is known to be softer than 14k), but you will find that flexible nibs are available in a variety of materials (like steel, gold, platinum, etc.).

 

What model Nakaya did you purchase?

[thw]

Thanks for your tips MYU.

 

QUOTE

steel nibs being quite smooth writers

 

A colleague of mine was given a free Sailor with EF steel nib. It is smooth as butter...

 

 

QUOTE

What model Nakaya did you purchase?

 

It was such a hard decision. I nearly rearranged my hairstyle and destroyed my Mac.

 

I love celluloid. However, there is no review here on a Nakaya celluloid.

 

Eventually i have decided to follow the crowd and buy a Cigar Piccolo with EEF.

 

[Sciopod]

Sailor have a new speciality nib out which sounds as though its so fine you won't be able to see what you've written. The following description is from Andys Pens website (Link)

 

25th March 2007: Sailor have announced a very special new nib option - the Saiba Togi nib. The Professional Gear Saibi Togi is a very special pen with a very special nib. The Professional Gear pen with either Rhodium or Gold trim is fitted with a unique Extra-Extra-Fine modified Naginata Togi nib. Because this is such a special nib section hand made by Mr. Nagahara himself the product is made to order only. It will take some time to produce and to arrive in the UK. High demand is expected, so please forward orders for this special product for delivery here in April/May 2007. This is the tip view of the nib. It is basically a specially modified Naginata Togi nib. To make this nib it is necessary for Mr. Nagahara to use a microscope to see the very fine detail. Each one takes approximately 1 hour to hand craft in the factory. This nib writes almost 50% finer than the current Extra-Fine nib!!

[HesNot]

I'm far from an expert but have tried a handful of different EF nibs and the one that really has stuck in my stable is a vintage Sheaffer Sentinel snorkel with an EF triumph nib. Great even flow and about as smooth as I can imagine ever getting with that fine a nib. Might even border on an EEF really. Excellent for marking up reports and documents although I don't find myself reaching for it when I have a lot of notes to write. It is definitely finer than my VP fine.

[meanwhile]

QUOTE (thw @ Apr 10 2007, 01:30 PM)

QUOTE Doubt it, but you won't do the nib any favours, and may push the tines out of alignment eventually if you write with a heavy hand.   Thanks Laura. You have cleared my misconception of heavy pen will wear the iridium tip quicker. Perhaps i have totally underestimated the strength of the iridium tip.   The strength of the iridium tip isn't an issue: the nib will bend when the steel or gold nib tines are over-stressed - damage will occur before the tipping strength is an issue.   If you really are a high pressure writer, look at:   - Sheaffer Triumph nibbed pens   - Sheaffer inlaid nibs (Targa, Legacy, PFM)   - Modern Rotrings   The first two are well-attested community wisdom, the last is my own inference. And you'd be must better with an M, B or stub nib.   In fact, if you can write successfully with an XF I can't believe that you really press that hard! It might be worth discussing this with someone who knows more than I do.

[thw]

Thank you Sciopod for sharing.

 

QUOTE

The Professional Gear Saibi Togi is a very special pen with a very special nib. The Professional Gear pen with either Rhodium or Gold trim is fitted with a unique Extra-Extra-Fine modified Naginata Togi nib.

 

This is essentially a Sailor with EEF nib.

 

I just have a reply from Andy today. The first batch of the Saiba Togi is on the way to UK. All the pens have been allocated to the customers. Any current order with payment from here on will be allocated pens from the next batch, which will be due in a few months.

 

I will update this post if i can locate a US dealer that can take orders for this pen.

[Lloyd]

Try Richie at Cyberpens. There's a good chance he can hunt one down.

[thw]

Thank you HesNot and Meanwhile,

 

Where can i buy a Sheaffer Snorkel with EF Triumph nib?

[Lloyd]

QUOTE (thw @ Apr 15 2007, 12:17 AM)

Thank you HesNot and Meanwhile, Where can i buy a Sheaffer Snorkel with EF Triumph nib?

If not too late, try Dennis's sale.

[RonB]

QUOTE (thw @ Apr 15 2007, 12:17 AM)

Thank you HesNot and Meanwhile, Where can i buy a Sheaffer Snorkel with EF Triumph nib?

I have a few extra Snorkels with EF nibs. You can pm or email me and I can give you the details.