Dip Pens And Modern Paper - Aghast Much.

[Roig]

I fight like cats and dogs, with stupid people who think the world revolves around them - or they have opinions and contributions to issues that they no experience with and or have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

Kind of like the subject is riding a bicycle in central Australia / Africa etc., on DIRT roads in the desert areas, with giant tyre piercing thorns - and preventing punctures.

 

And the emotionally and psychologically under developed will say, "I live in a big city, the roads are all paved with bitumen, the roads are swept clean daily the parks are filled with green grass that gets a daily watering, and there are no monster thorns around here - I don't see why you need to raise this issue, because I don't have this problem."

 

I have recently had a HUGE fight with a guy from Iampeth about his failure to grasp the clearly illustrated big picture issue, instead of his own ingraciated self centeredness.

 

My topic is this:

 

I love dip pens... writing with them, drawing with them, etc.. and I like nibs that can write on any paper, with speed and gusto.

 

I don't generally have much interest in the "finess" of fine art pen work, on expensive papers, with pricey inks.

 

I make my own inks, I love getting them everywhere and I generally use the cheapest school exercise books I can get, because I can.

 

I have found that the modern school exercise books, that sell for say $3.00 for 196 pages of A4 sized paper - well it's a modern, cheap, disposable paper, with a very high recycled content. It's very thin in the first place, and because of the "clotted" nature of paper fiber, there are considerable amounts of thin spots and soft spots in the pages, that while the ball point pens roll over them, the fine pointed dip pen nibs either dig into the soft spots or slice through the thin spots - so these papers are a real (bleep) to use with dip pen nibs.

 

But as I said in an email to a friend:

 

"In terms of dip pen nibs, I needed to separate the "fine art form" with good ink, good pens and good paper, from the needs of the every day student, using (bleep) cheap every day school exercise books, with (bleep) paper, designed for ball point pens.

 

I for one am not going to write 1000 pages of academic tripe, on fine writing paper that costs $1.20 a sheet, in the most elegant of script, when I can buy a 320 page school exercise book, with "good enough" paper for ball point pens, for $2.50."

 

 

 

Another friend has put me onto the Hunt 513 bowl nib, and the Esterbrook 048 Falcon nib.

 

They were / are the common peoples every day writing nibs, that had turned up nib tips etc., so they would not snag on the paper.

 

A point of general irritation - from the overall perspective for me is that the nib industry, generally has been technically superseded by their failure to manufacture MODERN nibs for modern (bleep) papers, and are still focusing largely on elegantly writing nibs, with fine pointy tips, for fine detail script and drawings - when 99% of all paper produced doesn't work well with fine pointy nibs, and so almost all people, as these arty farty nibs continuously dig into the modern (bleep) papers, very rightfully and very quickly dismiss these archaic artifices as best forgotten technology from a long bygone age - because they are a pain in the arse to use and they don't work.

 

There needs to be an intelligent resurgence to manufacture MODERN nibs that write well on every day papers.

 

While people carry on with all the arty farty penmanship issues, the fact is that almost all nibs cannot be used on modern (bleep) papers, and modern (bleep) papers, that work well with ball point pens, is about all there is, that is available to almost all people.

 

So the dip pens and finely pointed fountain pens, and the popularity of them, increasingly face extinction.

 

I want to see manufacturers bring out modern nibs, for modern papers, that every day people can use, for every day writing.

 

I want to see the entire industry promote this.

 

It's from the LARGE userbase, that the arty farty fine penmanship grows, not the other way around.

 

We need to focus on this fact alone.

 

We need every day nibs, that write on everyday papers, with every day inks.

 

The poxly papered dirt cheap school exercise book, ought to be the guiding standard for paper quality.

 

Because it's a really good, apalling grade of paper to use.

[00Photo]

Go for it.

 

I'll buy a couple.

[Cryptos]

So, what was the question?

[Wolverine1]

The market for nibs isnt big enough to justify the manufacture of high quality nibs, same goes for the manufacture of high quality paper. Though, you might try out the notebooks they sell at Walmart under the "NORCOM" brand name. The notebooks made in India are pretty fountain pen friendly. Be careful, get the one made in India only, Norcom notebooks made in Vietnam and elsewhere arent at all FP and ink friendly.

[Paddler]

There are many dip pen nibs already available that will write well on crummy paper (for a given value of crummy). However, most of them are not manufactured any more. You may have to hang around the flea markets to find what you are looking for and be ready to pay around a dollar per gross for them.

 

If you can't find what you are looking for there, you can make what you are looking for. With a plain Hunt "School" nib and some fine abrasives and a loupe, you can grind a point that will do what you want. It will take a while to learn the technique, but once learned, you can modify a nib to your liking in less time than it took you to type your rant.

[Wolverine1]

BTW, your entire rant is kinda stupid. You are not making a good impression by calling people who you disagree with stupid, when your entire rant is just that.

[LeonW]

Eish,

 

"The poxly papered dirt cheap school exercise book, ought to be the guiding standard for paper quality.

 

Because it's a really good, apalling grade of paper to use."

 

Not a problem for any ballpoint / Bic Pen / Fibre point to negotiate. Problem solved.

[Sandy1]

 

Hi,

 

Many thanks for expressing your thoughts.

 

I have great admiration for the skill of calligraphers and those who write with a fair hand; and those who take the time to find and use the materials to showcase what paper pen and ink can achieve. I am not counted amongst their number, even though I have spent time in the calligrapher's dojo.

 

My personal solution to using dip pens on all sorts of naughty_word paper includes a Brause Ornament nib (dual over-under reservoirs and a ball tip), with an iron-gall ink.

 

I-G ink can be home-brewed, and we have Members who would be glad to help you do so, if asked nicely.

 

Enjoy!

 

Bye,

S1

Edited May 27, 2015 by Sandy1

[J85909266]

While the tone is a bit harsh, I agree with the overall sentiment. More so regarding inks than nibs, as I don't use dip pens, and modern, steel fountain pen nibs get along with cheap paper just fine.

 

It's the inks that are the problem.

 

I cannot stand feathering and bleed through. I also can't stand the expectation that I buy expensive paper where the inks won't feather or bleed as much, but they sure take an outrageous amount of time to dry.

 

Feathering and bleed through need to be top priority in modern inks. Iron Gall is nice, but it has it's drawbacks, as well.

[AAAndrew]

Have you ever seen what old paper was like? Old school paper could often be quite poor in quality, but then the writing looked quite poor as well as a result. Most businesses and correspondents used a better quality of paper because they wanted it to look better. Pretty simple concept.

 

If you're looking for a magic nib and magic ink (you seem to focus more on the nib than the ink though they're inextricably linked in making a readable line) that works on all paper, then you're looking for a purple unicorn. If you're looking for a nib and ink that work on common composition book paper, that's quite doable. I have an Esterbrook Radio Nib, far from uncommon or expensive, or a modern Speedball nib that will work quite well on cheap paper if you use the right kind of ink.

 

It's not just nibs, it's not just paper, it's not just ink. You've got to find the acceptable blending of all three.

 

If you make your own ink and use only cheap paper, then you'll have to ensure your nib is up to the job. You've already limited, by choice, the quality of two of the three elements. As others have pointed out, grinding your own nibs to suite your chosen limitations is fairly straightforward. And finding nibs, old or modern, to fit your chosen limitations, is also possible, but will take more effort. But because your chosen limitations don't lend themselves to every nib you've tried doesn't mean it's worth a rant on the quality of nibs and the call for the manufacture of modern nibs to fit your personal choices.

 

Before ranting about the lack of these nibs because of some perceived cabal of "arty farty" writers that hog all of the modern nib production. Just get yourself a modern Speedball B-5 or B-6 and they will work on a school notebook if used with good ink without scratching up the page. Or get an old nib with a more rounded, firm nib and get back to just writing your 1000 pages of school work with a dip pen in a cheap notebook.

 

And you needn't spend lots to get very good paper. A ream of HP Premium Choice Laser paper will be as good as you can find and only cost you 4-cents a sheet ($20 for a ream). And there's even cheaper than that. My company uses as its copier paper a 20lb weight Premium Selection from Discovery Papers. It's cheap and amazingly friendly for even fountain pen inks.

[ac12]

I seem to hear this in your rant "with stupid people who think the world revolves around them"

You want the dip pen makers to make a nib "for you."

 

I totally disagree with your paper concept.

The major paper makers are targeting the ball pen users, not fountain pen users.

If you want FP friendly paper, you need to hunt for it.

If your FP does not write well on that paper, switch to a gel pen, ball pen or pencil.

 

As was mentioned, it is not only the pen, but the ink as well. If you use an ink that is too wet, you are just asking for feathering and blotting.

 

Go buy a Nikko G or Zebra G nib. The G nibs are a currently manufactured nib.

Then go to Staples and buy single subject wire bound notebook made in BRAZIL. 17 CENTS each in the back to school sale.

Then get a bottle of Higgins Eternal.

Now write.

[phardy]

The circumstances that made it possible for a firm like Esterbrook to crank out gazillions of #788 nibs for everyday scribbling -- so many that they're still easy to find though they've not been made in decades -- are gone and will not return.

However, you've got options. You could horde vintage nibs that do the job. (It worked for Shelby Foote!) You could research current production Japanese nibs. You could use Jinhao X450 nibs sans feeds from China in your dip pen holder. Finally, you could talk to a local machinist and launch a Kickstarter to produce a limited run of dream nibs.

It's all on you, though. The free market is like a cat, it doesn't care if you cuss at it, and the laws of thermodynamics don't read FPN.