'sumgai'

[s_t_e_v_e]

I have been thinking about this for sometime and wonder if sumgai deals are ethical and honest from the point of view of the buyer. As buyers, if we've been unaware of what something costs and got an accidental sumgai, then it's not really the buyer's fault I guess. But what if we know that, probably, the seller doesn't know the real value of the item or is mistakenly quoting a low price? Is letting them know the real value, the right thing to do? Or is it ok to get the deal? Or just let go of the deal without letting the seller know?

 

I'd like to know how you all look at sumgai deals and your experiences with sumgai's

 

Thanks!

 

P.S. If this topic doesn't conform to any of the rules of the forum then, mods, please remove it. With this topic, it is not my intent to start and acrimonious discussion or hurt anyone.

Edited May 12, 2015 by s_t_e_v_e

[jar]

It really depends on whether or you are taking advantage of the sellers ignorance. When dealing with a seller who is obviously uniformed about the actual value of the item I usually make an offer closer to the realistic value. In most cases I have found the seller has said that they will stick with what they asked originally but in several cases the seller has been very grateful for the higher sale.

 

I described an instance of what I consider to be a "sumgai" here.

[zaddick]

For me a good transaction is when both sides walk away happy. I would also conduct business differently face to face vs eBay due to the speed of the transaction.

 

Face to face I would tell a person they are asking too little and bring the price up to a good deal for me. The buyer gets more than asking and I still get a deal I can feel good about. I think that is the right thing to do.

 

On ebay if it is an auction without but it now, I will contact the seller to let them know if what they have is more valuable than the description if there is a big discrepancy. If not I let it go and the item usually goes for a fair price because so many people use that site that the market is more or less efficient.

 

On ebay if it is but it now for a steal I buy it because I find that the time it takes to contact the seller is longer than the time for someone else to buy it (again due to high traffic). If I sell the pen, I pass the savings on the the next buyer. I don't feel guilty because this is the price they asked and I paid it. I don't try to harvest the savings at a later date, so I can live guilt free.

 

Your opinions may differ.

[JotterAddict62]

Interesting topic...

Most of the vintage pens that I buy first are from estate auctions. All used unrestored AS IS at choice. [ Choice: 10 pens are up for sale and the bidding starts, depending what is there and condition.] I can get most Parker Vacumatics Majors & P51's at about $30 each. However like I say depending what is in the lot.

Ebay I feel the same pens will sell in the same condition when a person puts the pen that they picked up at said estate auction will sell for the price they paid + half to double what they spent on the pen.

 

[ Bought pen at $30 sell pen at $45- $60 ]

 

I feel ebay sales will take care of it self at a fair market value.

 

Flea markets you can haggle on the price and both parties will be happy with the sale. This is where I get pens at a good price when I do find some. I see a bag of pens with no price that I'm interested in I ask how much. They want to sell to to pay for the money they shell out to be there. This is what they do for a living in resale, these are the same people you would see at the estate auctions. That also goes for the items you see in the resale antique shops. I figure in the mark up when I see a pen in the shops.

 

So in the end it all balances out.

 

This is my take on the subject.

 

Ken

 

P.S. I let most Parkers pass me buy when the price exceeds $50.

But when I do see something different I will come out to play.

Edited May 12, 2015 by JotterAddict62

[inkstainedruth]

Well, the one time I got to have "sumgai" status, I never dealt with the actual sellers. I was in an antiques mall, and neither pen had the correct cap. One was marked as a Parker Frontier (because that's what the seller marked it as -- and priced it at $15 US). The other had no price tag at all, and the case it was in had a couple of third tier junker pens. The guy who opened the case for me ballpark-priced the pen at a price in between the two junkers.

Did I feel guilty? Nope. Not one whit. The sellers could have looked at the same markings I did and done some due diligence. Particularly in the case of the unpriced pen. It clearly says "Parker 51" on the barrel (the imprint was in pretty good shape).

I figure that it all balances out in the universe -- making up for the place that wanted 300 bucks for a Waterman with a badly mangled nib, or the guy on Ebay listing an Arnold (without even an Arnold nib) as a BiN for $100....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[pen2paper]

typically with old non-pen objects, I balance sumgai stuff with a very fair exchange of information that gives the seller a leg up on future sales. Actually building a relationship figures in a respectful interchange.

 

my single humble sumgai find was memorable. outdoor fleamarket, and in the last minutes I asked a fellow if he had any fountain pens. "yeah I Had one. Didn't bring it today. I dunno, you might look in the 25 cent tool bin". I dug around the greasy bin to the bottom and saw a small grimey greasy grey, slight reddish strippey small torpedo shaped something. Is this really 25 cents? He was positive. My job required I leave That second,and it wasn't until lunchtime I gingerly worked on getting what appeared to be a fragile filthy cap off. Not Easy, and I feared with each coaxing move it would shatter. Suddenly, I totally marveled at find a pristine 14 K nib solidifying that under that layered (protective?) goo was actually a subtle Roseglow Sheaffer. The next realization was that pen was about 138. once restored most everywhere. The 25 cents bugged me. So I returned, pressed a few more dollars in his hand describing the professional restoration cost ahead of me to make it usable, IF it did not shatter, leaving only the nib and parts as value.

 

A small chunk of change passed hands at the next local pen show, and the restored roseglow pen looked absolutely New, writing beautifully. I did return once to that market to update the person, and encourage him to look for others in his travels. No joy.

 

Sharing, encouraging, developing friendly connections can be a pleasant part of this process.

[AAAndrew]

I am more concerned about taking advantage of people who don't buy and sell for a living, like the guy at work bringing in his dad's old pens because he knows you like them. Someone who buys and sells old stuff I feel is more responsible for their own due diligence. I generally won't be a jerk, but if a professional antiques dealer puts out a Parker Mandarin Yellow Jr. For $50, who am I to say no? Especially in these days of the Internet?

[sargetalon]

I am more concerned about taking advantage of people who don't buy and sell for a living, like the guy at work bringing in his dad's old pens because he knows you like them. Someone who buys and sells old stuff I feel is more responsible for their own due diligence. I generally won't be a jerk, but if a professional antiques dealer puts out a Parker Mandarin Yellow Jr. For $50, who am I to say no? Especially in these days of the Internet?

 

 

This is kind of how I feel about it. I won't take advantage of someone if they aren't in the business of selling. If some is, however, I feel that it is their responsibility to research the item and the market before setting a price. If they fail to do so, that is on them. I like to think that I've balanced out my sumgai karma by frequently informing eBay sellers if they are grossly misidentifying or dramatically under/overpricing certain Pelikan pens. Those responses have generally been positive.

[WirsPlm]

In this age of online search engines the only reason for a seriously low price is if the seller doesn't care at all, there's no reason to try and educate the seller unless you're feeling like doing a good deed for the day, it's really not hard to search eBay and see listings for comparable pens, and I know people come to FPN for help identifying and pricing pens too. It's not a buyer's responsibility to tell sellers how to do well in business, and if a seller doesn't care enough to price their products carefully than that's their choice.

[AAAndrew]

These days I find that ignorance tends to lead toward too high of a price rather than too low, except in the case of those who aren't professional sellers, like the example I gave. Those are the ones I want to be more fair with. But on eBay? It's whatever is the latin for "seller beware."

[KBeezie]

These days I find that ignorance tends to lead toward too high of a price rather than too low, except in the case of those who aren't professional sellers, like the example I gave. Those are the ones I want to be more fair with. But on eBay? It's whatever is the latin for "seller beware."

caveat emptor

 

And I find on eBay it seems to go both ways, you either get someone who can't quite identify the pen so it ends up being very low (and if it's a buy it now price that's low, I'll usually snag it), or you get someone who seems to have correctly identified the pen, but over valued it, such as throwing up an unrestored tarnished eversharp skyline that probably has a disintegrated sac and other unknown problems, and they want $120 for it, if they have an 'or best offer', I'll usually offer something that seems more appropriate for an unrestored in unknown internal condition price, sometimes they bite, sometimes they don't.

[AAAndrew]

I think caveat emptor is "buyer beware" and that's why I was looking for the reverse.

 

BTW, KBeezie, nice photos on your site.

[claudewick]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "sumgai"?

[KBeezie]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "sumgai"?

 

You: Hey do you guys got any fountain pens here?

Garage Sale Seller : Naw, "SomeGuy" came by and bought them all.

 

Usually labeled on someone who makes a major score or find on some good pens for extremely cheap price.

Edited May 15, 2015 by KBeezie

[Water Ouzel]

I think caveat emptor is "buyer beware" and that's why I was looking for the reverse.

Caveat vendor.

 

Didn't know you used latin in every day business, did you?

[KBeezie]

Caveat vendor.

 

Didn't know you used latin in every day business, did you?

 

http://i.imgur.com/IW8simF.gif

[AAAndrew]

Caveat vendor.

 

Didn't know you used latin in every day business, did you?

 

Well, the quid pro quo would be to point out the many other languages used in every day English. But that might be declasse. Instead, I'll be out on the patio drinking an espresso and doing algebra.

[Dickkooty2]

Cave Canem!

[Larry Barrieau]

The seller sets a price that he is happy if he gets it, win win

[Uncial]

The seller sets a price that he is happy if he gets it, win win

That's more or less how I look at it. I've found my fair share of great deals on ebay (with great patience and persistence) and at auctions. In these instances it is what the market value was, because it was open to anyone to buy who was online or present in the room (although I have had pangs when I'm the only bidder). When it comes to stores or private sellers, if they put a price on something they are making a profit they are happy with. It takes very, very little effort these days to figure out what you have and what it's worth.

 

I did once have a qualm about a Chinese vase I bought. I thought it looked nice, knew nothing about it and paid very little for it. Within a year the market for that kind of thing exploded and I ruthlessly flogged it for a substantial sum. Somewhere out there in auction land, someone probably flogged it again for many times for what I got for it. I guess that's just how it works, but I did feel something of a pang of guilt about the initial transaction, but only in hindsight after the passage of time and events I could not have seen.