An Appeal To The Mabie Todd Intelligentsia

[Ana_]

Looking at the first 2 pens in your photo, are those both Blackbirds? My clip most closely resembles the first/top one, the one that appears black with shards of gold and sky blue, without the bird of course. If that pen is a blackbird, it also resembles the flat top of the cap. The cap on the FP beaneath that one appearsto have a bit of an edge and mine is flat like the top one.The two bands are like the tiny snake skinned FPs. In the second photo of the snake skin pens, and i'm not sure if this is an angle of the camera, the bands on the blue snake skin ones appear to be flat and only minimally raised, but the bands on the green snake skin pen appear to be raised even more, is that right? My thinking in asking that here is, could the green snake skin rings be a #9 for being significantly more raised than average? My rings are a bit raised, but seem more in line with your first FP blue snake skin in the second photo. So this pen has the double bands of a snake/lizard, the flat cap and clip of a blackbird and the body and mosaic pattern of a swan? Sure looking to be a prototype.

[Greenie]

The pens in the first pic - the top is a Blackbird with the flat top (and the clip logo represents a blackbird), and the lower one is peaked on top and the clip has a shield shape at the top with a swan in it (like Cob's Swan Shield in his posting right lower corner.). Also Swans have a white swan imprint on top of the cap. So your pen cap most represents a Blackbird and not a swan by shape alone. By finishings, the gold bands, gold clip, and gold lever AND MOSTLY the high end mosaic plastic seen on higher end Swans, are all Swan features. Then there is the lack of any bird name, bird imprint on barrel, bird on clip, etc.

 

I have heard of Swan, Blackbird, Swallow, and even a Mabie Todd Kiwi. My very very old Mabie Todd and Bard pens have no birds. Everything post 1906 has a bird. You have the only Mabie Todd Birdless I have seen. Perhaps it was a prototype, or perhaps it was some late model that is actually and truly Birdless.

 

All the rings pictured in my previous posts are flat and flush.

 

Here are the 9's you are asking about. The pens in this post are 192/XX ring top models. Sometimes the rings are very raised with enamel.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Greenie

[Beechwood]

This thread is what FPN does better than anyone. Provides information, help and encouragment to those wanting to learn more about our hobby.

 

Makes you Proud.

[Ana_]

Greenie,

Thank you for all the information you are providing and the fantastic visuals. Do you know what year the mosaic black/gauzy gold celuloid body began to be produced and whether or not that was something done only with UK pens or with UK and NY, US FPs also? After viewing your #9 examples, I see that my bands are far closer to the unlisted #2 that you have seen on Swans! Those #9's have some beautiful banding.

 

Beechwood,

I agree! This thread truly exemplifies what FPN does best, bringing aficionados together from around the globe to solve a beloved FP mystery. The information being provided, the help and encouragement are invaluable and very much fun.

 

(Edited to add this below section as opposed to the odd spelling correction):

 

I completely forgot that I was going to add the dimensions of my MT FP:

 

FP Dimensions:

Length of FP Capped = 4 6/8" (12.3 cm)

Uncapped (End of Pen to End of Section) = 3 7/8" (9.8 cm)

Circumference at Widest Point = 1 1/2" (3.7 cm)

Weight Capped = 1/2 oz. (15 g)

 

Maybe this can be checked against the Blackbird, Swan, Swallow etc. to see which of those the dimensions resembles.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ana_

[Cob]

OH this time difference!

 

A vast amount of stuff has appeared whilst I was in the arms of Morpheus and is not too easy to absorb whilst groping for my usual industrial-strength coffee. (Tea comes after the shower).

 

I think that the Blackbird idea is a red herring; we've established the there were Swans fitted with the "smooth" clip and the pattern is most un-Blackbird like. Also Blackbird nibs ( except the "Big" Blackbird and the Blackbird No3 which are the same size and shape as Swan Minor 2s and have No 2 size nibs with heart shaped breathers) are relatively small and as far as I can judge, this one appears to be No 2 size.

 

Greenie it doesn't qualify as a Swan Minor: a) not tall enough, b: no black filling lever c) wrong type (i.e. inserted) clip as opposed to step clip. And it's not an SM; I have just measured my SM205/63 which is a few mm longer and of course has a black filling lever!

 

The dimensions given by Ana match exactly a green marbled Swan I have in front of me - in fact it's up on eBay at the moment.

 

Typically it has no number stamped on it but it is 6xxx shape. As it has a No2 nib and is green marbled I would call it a 6241. 6260/1 (black) are common, so are 6241s, 6242s (blue marble) and 6245s (grey marble). If Ana's pen has a Swan stamped into the top of the cap (we might be lucky!) then I would christen it a 6247. - 6 is the shape, 2 the nib and 47 the pattern of course.

 

Also I have been told by someone very experienced that Swans unstamped with the bird both on barrel and clip are not unknown, but I am sure we can confirm that they are pretty uncommon

 

Ana: may we see the top of the cap please?

 

Incidentally I have been looking through my copy of Mabie in America, but there are no clues there - lots of nice pictures though of gorgeous black and gold pens like Greenie's!

C.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Cob

[Greenie]

It is impossible to convey tone in these posts. Please know that I am all smiles and having a lot of fun with this. I enjoy my hobby and definitely don't take it too seriously. I have no need to ever "win" and all my poking back is purely for fun and out of interest in the minutiae and often the quirks of what came out of the pen companies.

 

That being said... here is a 4 1/2 inch imprinted with the model SM 100/86 with a metal lever and two bands. But no clip and the ends are black caps, and a bit peaked, not flat. And the lever has no round part on the end and does not match any other swan lever that I have. My two tone snakeskin pens have no imprinted numbers, but have metal levers. My more traditional snakeskin pens have model numbers with SM, and have beautiful hard rubber levers.

 

In the end, anything is possible as these were hand made and odd variations always seem to come up. That's part of the fun!

 

 

[Cob]

Part of the fun indeed - especially with Mabie Todd. That is indeed an odd example

 

I sold a SM100/84 - bright green lizard; that one had black ends, but did have the black lever.

 

All most entertaining

 

C.

[Cob]

The pens in the first pic - the top is a Blackbird with the flat top (and the clip logo represents a blackbird), and the lower one is peaked on top and the clip has a shield shape at the top with a swan in it (like Cob's Swan Shield in his posting right lower corner.). Also Swans have a white swan imprint on top of the cap. So your pen cap most represents a Blackbird and not a swan by shape alone. By finishings, the gold bands, gold clip, and gold lever AND MOSTLY the high end mosaic plastic seen on higher end Swans, are all Swan features. Then there is the lack of any bird name, bird imprint on barrel, bird on clip, etc.

 

I have heard of Swan, Blackbird, Swallow, and even a Mabie Todd Kiwi. My very very old Mabie Todd and Bard pens have no birds. Everything post 1906 has a bird. You have the only Mabie Todd Birdless I have seen. Perhaps it was a prototype, or perhaps it was some late model that is actually and truly Birdless.

 

All the rings pictured in my previous posts are flat and flush.

 

Here are the 9's you are asking about. The pens in this post are 192/XX ring top models. Sometimes the rings are very raised with enamel.

But don't forget the Starling - Mabie Todd product; I would like to find one - I suspect it might even have been junior to the Jackdaw or perhaps a predecessor. I don't know!

 

C.

[Ana_]

Here is the cap, which has no imprint. I'm wondering, ok, on the notion that these were handmade so no standard, was no one overseeing the process? I know these questions may be rhetorical but I'm just wondering what was working there like? Boss: "Right Jimmy, you're going too slow, no break for you," James: "I'll show him, looks down at FP, No Swan for you," and yet another with no markings. Hmm. I would like to think that there's some way to more or less say what 9 times out of 10 a characteristic of a particular model is. That's a beautiful pen on eBay Cob! I may have to jump in on the fun.

 

Cob, Thank you for clarifying that the dimensions I gave match your Swan. I want to say this FP has more in common with the Swan than the Blackbird.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ana_

[Cob]

Well I'm totally stuck: I have no idea what it is - but whatever it is it is well worth restoring. An incredible curiosity to my mind. Others with more experience may have more information but - well - where are they??

 

I like your idea of the scenario - would make a funny black and white film "short" - one might imagine Buster Keaton at the bench...

 

Completely off the subject, years ago I met an old boy who worked as a lathe operator at Lagonda Cars before the war. He told me that his foreman was a holy terror. He said "He'd give me some machining job, come back in a couple of hours, look at what I'd made and say 'Where are you stacking them son?'"!

 

My green marble Swan is pretty good; the 4261 leverless I put up today is a nice pen, though I prefer the nib on the green one personally. It's the 3140 (with the wrong photo (doh)) that has this week's "noodler" nib though.

 

I have quite a few more Swans coming up in the next few weeks. I have too many pens!

 

Rgds

 

Cob

[FountainPages]

Whatever the pen, it sure is a pretty thing...I hope you enjoy it immensely! And if it IS a prototype, you have really found a winner and rare.

Edited April 2, 2015 by FountainPages

[Ana_]

Cob, I agree, whatever this beautiful creature is its worth restoring. Along the lines of the old boys story, he wasn't lying! In another life I used to work for a fruit packing company on the lines sorting and the floor ladies were an unholy terror! I once saw one of them bring 2 sisters to fight! Yes, I too feel a MT Movie short coming on! Cob, I have never heard anyone say they have too many pens in reference to FP's... *gulp* ...am imagining an underground lair with FP sized slotted wall panels that upon first glance look like sparkling gems... 😊

[Ana_]

FountainPages, I am enjoying it immensely, from the second I saw it I fell for it, and now along with all its beauty its brought right along with it this great mystery and fantastic conversation with good people

[Cob]

As I went to bed last night I had another idea: perhaps Mabie Todd had a training department and that this pen was an apprentice's piece; obviously such a piece would not be sold as a normal pen and thus the Swan might be omitted?

 

This is the way that what I call my brain functions late at night...

 

Cob

[leftyFPlover]

I see a Mabie Todd No. 2 nib currently on ebay, starting bid $25

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SWAN-MABIE-TODD-14-KT-GOLD-2-FOUNTAIN-PEN-NIB-/301582906183?

[Ana_]

An apprentice MT FP! Aaahh, I like the thought of that. So many possibilities. Do you think we'll add further confusion to it by adding the Swan 2 nib, feeder & Swan section? Or will that then make people say ah, yes, it's a swan without the cap, body, number logos & engravings ... Or maybe the Original pen had the swan nib/feeder/section before the original owner presumably dropped the pen and broke out the nib, feeder parts??

 

LeftyFPLover, thank you for the link, I have some original Swan parts en route tomorrow thanks to Cob!

 

Cob, what do you think the best brand of ink is to use with a vintage MT FP?

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ana_

[Ana_]

Cardboard_Tube, I'm in the U.S. and don't recognize those brands? I'll have a look around for them but anything you could recommend stateside is appreciated 😊

[Greenie]

I hope my suggestions are not so pedestrian as to get me shunned by the community..... I go nuts for pens, but not for inks. There. I said it.

 

That being said:

Parker Quink,

Sheaffer Scrip (but the colors seem a bit watery - the black gets no complaints)

Both of these have been around for a very very long time, so I figure they go well with vintage pens. Neither give me any problems

 

I also enjoy Pelikan: Royal Blue (but my daughter likes the Violet better)

 

Some pens like one ink, and some pens like another....

 

There is as much information and minutiae about ink as there is about pens, and think about how much we have picked apart a single pen in the thread!

 

Some good fountain pen people to check out. Always very nice and helpful at the pen shows. They don't get too exotic with their ink.

https://www.pendemonium.com/

[Cob]

An apprentice MT FP! Aaahh, I like the thought of that. So many possibilities. Do you think we'll add further confusion to it by adding the Swan 2 nib, feeder & Swan section? Or will that then make people say ah, yes, it's a swan without the cap, body, number logos & engravings ... Or maybe the Original pen had the swan nib/feeder/section before the original owner presumably dropped the pen and broke out the nib, feeder parts??

 

LeftyFPLover, thank you for the link, I have some original Swan parts en route tomorrow thanks to Cob!

 

Cob, what do you think the best brand of ink is to use with a vintage MT FP?

 

With all the presumption of speaking for someone else I bet Cob will recommend ESSRI.

 

For myself, having not tried that ink, but having two MTs (a Swan and a Blackbird) from the man himself, I suggest Rohrer & Klingner Salix. I really should get some ESSRI and some Scabiosa. However, I am reaching the end of the current fill in the Swan (eyedropper) and may have a change and put something a little more startling into it. Not sure what yet...

Hullo again. Well you and Cardboard Tube are on different times from me hence my delay in replying. And CT is dead right: ESSRI is great and to my eyes gives a lovely period look:

 

 

I like Salix and Scabiosa too and have both of these. Other favourites include Diamine Grape and Montblanc Lavender Purple. For bright inks - Sheaffer's purple and Waterman's Tender Purple are both nice.

 

Don't forget to flush out thoroughly with cold water each time you change your ink colours - or indeed ink brands.

 

Cob

Edited April 4, 2015 by Cob

[Goudy]

Ah, sorry. ESSRI is Ecclesiastical Stationery Supplies Registrar's Ink, from HERE. Can be ordered relatively cheaply from the UK.

 

Rohrer & Klingner Salix is available from Amazon US HERE and Scabiosa from the same company is also on Amazon HERE.

 

 

All three are, I believe, iron gall inks. Reviews can be seen here: ESSRI, Salix, and Scabiosa.

 

There are multiple reviews on FPN of these inks, so worth having a broader look than the above links!

 

The only caveat about iron gall is that it corrodes steel. Mabie Todd gold nibs are immune, but I'm wondering about the wire that's sometimes attached to the feed inside an MT eyedropper. Is that steel or something else that's safe with IG?