An Appeal To The Mabie Todd Intelligentsia

[Ana_]

Hello FP Intelligentsia,

 

I know that identifying Mabie Todd FPs is a reoccuring thread and so I bring you... Episode 1,576. I recently purchased the below Mabie Todd. The body has imprinted, "MABIE TODD & CO. LTD." and below that "MADE IN ENGLAND", however that's where the identification ends. There are no identifying numbers whatsoever on this FP anywhere. The threads I read here searching for identification clues all had numbers and letters and some post replies included fantastic details of what the numbers and letters meant. But... no numbers and letters anywhere here. Also, most of the Mabie Todd's that I have seen have Swan nibs that are from the UK. This nib is labeled, "Warranted 14K U.S.A." and has a heart shaped breather hole, (something I have seen on other Swan Mabie Todd nibs) and does not indicate its nib size. So, I have an unidentified type of UK Mabie Todd FP with an American nib. I haven't seen this combination yet in my Mabie Todd browsing so maybe somewhere along the way someone had the nib switched out? Any help is always greatly appreciated. Thanks

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ana_

[Beechwood]

Others will comment and provide more helpful advice but as a starting point I would suggest that this is a later MT Blackbird and the nib could be correct, other US made pens have been seen with a Warranted.

 

I would have expected numbers showing colour codes at the end of the barrel, the crisp impression of the makers name would suggest that the model numbers might not been worn away. And nothing on the section too.

 

Unusual and attractive pattern, worth restoring properly and the Warranted or, better still the MT #2, nibs are common enough to replace your nib which may have seen better days.

 

Have a look at Grandmia's excellent presentation on Youtube for the restoration of the Blackbird:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba2-9-LCKXA

Edited March 31, 2015 by Beechwood

[Ana_]

Hi Beechwood,

Thank you for your reply. I just got done watching the video you provided the link to. My FP does have the body of the Blackbird, however, it does not have a blackbird logo on the pen clip, does not say blackbird directly behind the clip, above the Mabie Todd & CO imprint, or on the feeder and no # on the bottom. I find this sooo strange. Do you know if the odd UK Mabie Todd had US Warranted nibs? I suspect that this one has been changed out. I do love the black sheen body with the druzy gold marbled patterns. I just got this in the mail today. Do you know a good place to buy the MT#2 nibs and a good FP person who could affix that along with giving my pen a restoration? I definitely want to return this FP to its full glory.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Ana_

[Beechwood]

Hi

 

Here is a link for a MT Swallow, with a Warranted nib. But no Made in England on the barrel.

 

http://www.cathedralpens.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=95

 

 

There are plenty of good pen people in the US to make your pen look as new and as good as the pen in Grandmia's presentation, I havent used them personally but I would expect others will give you a good name and comment on US availability of a Mabie Todd nib which should have more flexibility and grace than a Warranted.

[Cob]

Interesting pen in Mabie Todd's sought-after Mosaic material (no 47).

 

Surely the clip carries the Swan logo? If the pen is about 12.5cm long I would call it a 6247, but as in many, many cases Mabie Todd omitted to stamp the numbers on their pens!

 

If it doesn't say "Swan" anywhere on it, then perhaps it is a prototype in which case it is very rare indeed. I should say that the warranted nib is not correct and as remarked above a No 2 nib would be a good idea.

 

I should like to see a full photo of the clip anyway: it looks like the unusual clip I have on an un-numbered leverless I own in 64 material (brown amber) on the left in this photo:

 

 

P.S. If it is a Blackbird I should give it the number 5247!

 

Cob

Edited March 31, 2015 by Cob

[Ana_]

Beechwood, I took a look at that video also, thank you for sending them. I subscribed to Grandmia's video's, I like the way he presents and talks about the FP's.

 

Cob, thank you for that picture, those are beautiful and thank you for letting me know that the name of the material is Mosaic No. 47. Does this FP have a plastic body? Shockingly, the clip does not carry the Swan logo. There is some strong brassing right where the Swan would go, however, and i'm certainly no expert, i'm inclined to think that there was not one there to begin with or I would be able to feel the remnants of the imprint. Is it possible for the imprint to be rubbed out and especially there at the top of the clip? I have looked all over this FP through a jewlers loup and do not see signs of imprints. I took a photo at 2 angles of the clip so that you could have a look. I can't believe Mabie Todd omitted the number on their pens on several occassions? I have to wonder why? That's helpful to know. How would I know if it is a prototype? The clip definitely resembles the one your pen has there on the left, as you said. The FP does not have the top and botttom black circular 'caps' at the ends. Ok, here is the photo of the clip at two angles.

 

Thank you both for your input, it's helping me to learn more about this pen than before.

[Cob]

Hullo.

 

This is fascinating! The clip is clearly the same shape the left hand pen in my picture and is the only other one I have ever seen. Judging by the pictures, this clip never had an imprint and as you can see from mine, it would take a great deal of polishing to remove it!

 

However as you have pointed out it is not fixed as mine are with a screw cap; yours is the inserted type fitted to so many Swans in the late 1930s and beyond into the early 1950s in the SM series, the 6xxx series some 1930's leverless pens and the 3xxx and 4xxx pens of the 40s and 50s. In your position if possible I would have the clip re-gilded; the pen must surely be unique! I can only assume it must be a prototype that escaped the works unless someone has seen something similar.

 

The material is some type of Celluloid - cellulose acetate; I think Mabie Todd called it Xylonite.

 

As for the Swallows, they were produced in the 1930s in the USA; there are no English Swallows - we had the Blackbird and of course the Jackdaw. There is also the Starling mystery.

 

Just for fun here's a snap showing my 47 pattern pencil with another Fyne Poynt to keep it company:

 

 

Rgds

 

Cob

Edited April 1, 2015 by Cob

[Ana_]

Cob, I completely agree that it would be pretty tough to rub the engraving right off of the clip! It is a fascinating mystery. Oh wow, I didn't know I could have the clip re-gillded? I will have to do that. What about the two gold rings around the cap toward the bottom? They are nearly pristine but around the back there is a small part that is nearly rubbed off, can this also be re-gilded? What do you mean by a prototype that escaped the works? Oh wow you have the pencil equivelant of my fountain pen! I love it, that's beautiful Mabie & Todd really knew what they were doing with this Mosaic Material No. 47.

 

Where would I go to find MT #2 nibs? I have looked for the last 2 days everywhere I can think of online and done searches but do not see anything. Is the #2 the best nib out there or the most desired of the # sizes?

Edited April 1, 2015 by Ana_

[Cob]

Hullo again.

 

Many pen repairers can do re-gilding - though I cannot at present as I haven't yet acquired the equipment, though I am considering it. With the large American membership of this forum I am sure that you can get recommendations.

 

I am pretty sure that a No 2 nib is correct for your pen. If you are unable to find one, please PM me as I have quite a few with various characteristics.

 

"Escaped the works" is my euphemism for "someone took it home with them"! As for the material, well t is my view that Mabie Todd had some of the loveliest patterns in the 1920s and 30s. Here's a snap of a couple of mine - the 63 in russet jade and the 57 material in blue bronze:

 

 

Best wishes

 

Cob

[Beechwood]

Ana/Cob

 

Its a pleasure taking you through this discovery, and all thanks to Cob for his knowledge and involvement.

 

I think the place we are coming to is that this may be a special pen that is worth restoring properly with a good nib and brightwork brought back to as new.

 

There are many good pen restorers in the US, not having used any of them I shouldnt comment but good reports are heard of Danny at the Write Pen:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/user/944-the-write-pen/

Edited April 1, 2015 by Beechwood

[Cob]

Ana/Cob

 

Its a pleasure taking you through this discovery, and all thanks to Cob for his knowledge and involvement.

 

I think the place we are coming to is that this may be a special pen that is worth restoring properly with a good nib and brightwork brought back to as new.

 

There are many good pen restorers in the US, not having used any of them I shouldnt comment but good reports are heard of Danny at the Write Pen:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/user/944-the-write-pen/

One never stops learning: a very helpful and knowledgeable person has given me some more information: first ,Swans unstamped on barrel or clip with the Swan are not unknown; second, all English pens originally had New York nibs until about 1931!

 

Nevertheless - this is a special pen in that it is made from the desirable 47 Mosaic material and deserves to be restored (as do ALL Swans!).

 

Cob

[Greenie]

I have Swans with unmarked clips, and even more that fail to have numbers imprinted.

This is a BEAUTIFUL pattern that is highly sought after. Cob posted elsewhere that this pattern is one of most wanted but often too expensive.....

 

The clip mounting is typical for later 1930s or 1940s. The shape is that of a Blackbird clip. My Swan clips have more detail, and the Blackbird is smoother like this.

 

Scroll down to see my collection photos.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/288047-enough-interest-in-mabie-todd-swan-or-otherwise/

 

But all of my pens have a Swan or Blackbird mentioned on the imprint. None that just list Mabie Todd and England (or US).

 

It is clearly a real Mabie Todd in a fantastic pattern. Swan? Balckbird? Or a later version that didn't care what bird it is?

 

No way to know the "right" nib for this unusual find. The feed might offer clues. A MT&Co or Swan #2 is always a great nib to write with.

 

**Can you post a picture of the feed? Can you see any markings on the feed?

[Ana_]

Hi Beechwood, This has definitely been and is a pleasurable journey, I am really enjoying learning all about the world of Mabie & Todd and I have to say it took little to no time whatsoever for me to fall in love with MT and be just courted by their beautiful craftsmanship. I love the FP that I purchased and Cob, your collection is stunning. I've also enjoyed going through other MT threads and viewing others collections here. Beautiful pens. I couldn't access the Danny at the Write Pen link? When I clicked on it it responded that, "Sorry, you don't have permission for that". I will startpage that name, see if I can find it, thank you.

 

Cob, Yes! I am thankful for your knowledge, you have taken years of mystery surrounding this pen right out of it and that so appreciated. I am in total agreement with you that I want to do this pen justice and restore it to its UK glory! I am so excited about the process and look forward to watching it return back to its original beauty. You know, when I bought this pen, it came with a tiny white (Alice in wonderland 'drink me' looking) tag with string around the clip, the tag read L481, and uhm, sheepish as I feel exactly right now.. it just dawned on me (I didn't sleep last night...) is this the 4 digit pen number that identifies it? I thought that it was just the seller's inventory stock numbers? I did email him and ask him what history he knew of the pen, how he came by it etcetera but have yet to hear back. I wish I knew what sort of nib this FP originally had for identifying the exact year, whether it was that NY 1931 nib or a proper UK one from the start.

 

Greenie, that's visually Stimulating! What a beautiful collection, how long have you been collecting and what first drew you to these FP's? I see that you are in Orange County so have you done the restorations yourself or has someone here done them for you? I noticed that you have a couple of the Mosaics that i posted above. I also love the blue and druzy gold FP that you and Cob have. Most definitely come here to us if you ever decide to liquidate or sell them off one... by one... (just putting it out there... ) Are most of your pens UK FP's or do you have US MT's also? I was considering purchasing Mabie in America by David L. Moak but have spoken via email to the author and have just learned it is all sold out and not to be reprinted which has unfortunately driven the cost up considerably.

[Ana_]

Greenie, just saw the last sentence of your post (sleep deprivation) and I am posting below a photo of the feed which i've just taken. There are absolutely zero markings where they should be to indicate the type of pen (Swan, Blackbird, Jackdaw, Swallow) or above the engraved words, "Mabie & Todd CO, LTD".

[Cob]

Greenie, just saw the last sentence of your post (sleep deprivation) and I am posting below a photo of the feed which i've just taken. There are absolutely zero markings where they should be to indicate the type of pen (Swan, Blackbird, Jackdaw, Swallow) or above the engraved words, "Mabie & Todd CO, LTD".

That feed is not Mabie Todd - definitely not - the finned circular part closest to the section is the giveaway; I have never seen such a feed on any pen - let alone a Swan! The section looks definitely to be MT though. I suspect that the nib was replaced at some time and the feed fitted then also. Perhaps the pen was dropped and took out the feed as well as the nib; feeds are quite brittle when cold.

 

Gold plated levers are very rare on Blackbirds and anyway the nib and feed look to be too big for the normal Blackbird and I doubt MT made Blackbird No3s in 47 material!

 

C.

[Cob]

Hi Beechwood, This has definitely been and is a pleasurable journey, I am really enjoying learning all about the world of Mabie & Todd and I have to say it took little to no time whatsoever for me to fall in love with MT and be just courted by their beautiful craftsmanship. I love the FP that I purchased and Cob, your collection is stunning. I've also enjoyed going through other MT threads and viewing others collections here. Beautiful pens. I couldn't access the Danny at the Write Pen link? When I clicked on it it responded that, "Sorry, you don't have permission for that". I will startpage that name, see if I can find it, thank you.

 

Cob, Yes! I am thankful for your knowledge, you have taken years of mystery surrounding this pen right out of it and that so appreciated. I am in total agreement with you that I want to do this pen justice and restore it to its UK glory! I am so excited about the process and look forward to watching it return back to its original beauty. You know, when I bought this pen, it came with a tiny white (Alice in wonderland 'drink me' looking) tag with string around the clip, the tag read L481, and uhm, sheepish as I feel exactly right now.. it just dawned on me (I didn't sleep last night...) is this the 4 digit pen number that identifies it? I thought that it was just the seller's inventory stock numbers? I did email him and ask him what history he knew of the pen, how he came by it etcetera but have yet to hear back. I wish I knew what sort of nib this FP originally had for identifying the exact year, whether it was that NY 1931 nib or a proper UK one from the start.

 

Greenie, that's visually Stimulating! What a beautiful collection, how long have you been collecting and what first drew you to these FP's? I see that you are in Orange County so have you done the restorations yourself or has someone here done them for you? I noticed that you have a couple of the Mosaics that i posted above. I also love the blue and druzy gold FP that you and Cob have. Most definitely come here to us if you ever decide to liquidate or sell them off one... by one... (just putting it out there... ) Are most of your pens UK FP's or do you have US MT's also? I was considering purchasing Mabie in America by David L. Moak but have spoken via email to the author and have just learned it is all sold out and not to be reprinted which has unfortunately driven the cost up considerably.

Greenie's collection is enough to make one want to give up! Just joking but what a fabulous assemblage of beautiful pens.

 

L481 would not be the number: L on Swans means Leverless which your pen is not; I do not know if there was a L481, but with the enormous number of models and variants MT produced it's quite possible.

 

C.

[Greenie]

1. Never seen a feed like that.

2. I bow my head to Cob. I have the pens, but he has the knowledge.

 

It just happens to be a very interesting and unusual model in a fantastic pattern. The lever looks like a typical swan gold lever. The clip is smooth, but otherwise common. Some of my later model snakeskin pens look like this, but with one wide or one narrow band. My only two band is the small size clipless.

 

I unofficially might propose it to be a SM 222/47

Swan Minor 2, Needs a MT or Swan #2 nib and feed.

middle digit is for the banding,

Last digit is not clearly for anything.

Here is a chart I think I downloaded from FPN in the past. I have found it to work very well.

[Ana_]

Cob,

After your description of the MT feeder, I went back through other MT FP's online to take a look at the MT feeder style, and now note the rounded feature that makes it characteristically MT, great lesson! I love learning about how to visually identify the authenticity of a piece. So the Blackbird was smaller than this FP? I'm going to take the FP measurements: size capped and uncapped, weight capped and uncapped etcetera and post them here. You make a great point in that a Blackbird in Mosaic does seem implausible. Perhaps this is a prototype as it's so thoroughly unmarked. LOL Greenie's collection does indeed leave one breathless! I also appreciate the collection of them, seeing so many preserved that way for posterity makes me feel happy that such a great pen will not be forgotten.

 

Greenie,

Thank you for sharing the Pre-War Model Number chart, that's great! And thank you for the "unofficial" Letter/Number identification proposal. I like the idea of trying to find a way to number this so at least in conversation I can sing something to the tune of, well it has the body of a Swan but the clip of a snakeskin... etc.. It's definitely a lever filler. What distinguishes an SF from an SM? Is SM characterized by being a lever filler? What are the characteristics of an SM? The FP does not seem to be a Blackbird. Cob gave 2 really great clues there: That Blackbirds, except the odd 1 or 2 didn't tend to have lever fillers and that the FP is done in Mosaic 47 which would not make sense to place in a lower model.

Hmm. I appreciate your, undoubtedly educated guess (given the stock you have and the endless pleasurable hours of observation!) at the #2 nib size, that is the exact size (Thanks to Cob!) that I am going with for this pen to replace the current non-MT "Warranty 14k U.S.A." nib and feeder, it just feels right. However, the second digit as a 2, first of all, I find it yet again bizarre that this chart goes from 0 to 1 to 3 as though it were the most normal counting sequence in the world? What about double bands located at the cap's mouth? Could this be a #5 with a pair of solid 9 carat bands? Or a #9 uncommonly splended paired bands on the cap? They are not enameled, so maybe this omits 9, but they certainly are splended to me as is the entire pen. So could this be named an SM 252/47 or can we presume Mabie Todd implied a 2 between 1 and 3 up there in the second number category, meaning it to signify 2 bands near the cap's mouth? It is indeed an intriguing and unusual model cloaked in mystery.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Ana_

[Greenie]

So here are all the features, but on separate pens.

The mystery pen clip is mounted like many of the late 30s and early 40s pens.

The cap shape and clip shape are more Blackbird-like, but no bird imprint

Two bands like the tiny snake (SM 100) or my full sized lizards (L312 and L212).

Gold bands are more Swan like. Nib and Feed are probably replacements.

So, all the mystery pen features are all typical Mabie Todd features.

I think you found a Mabie Todd "Birdless" ! ! ! In pattern 47 Brown/Black Mosaic.

[Greenie]

Our posts crossed in the internet.

 

The second digit is a bit variable.

The 142 and 242's are all different banding with black and gold bands of different numbers.

The 130 and 230 have two bold bands on the body, and the top of the cap has a black or ripple band with a gold band.

My ring tops with lots of bands in varying patterns are all 192/xx

But the one with 12 bands and large overlays is a 272/xx

I have a 0 in the middle with two bands, one band, but usually no bands with a 0

My lizards have a 1 in the middle, but two bands. So the middle, in my observation, means almost nothing, and the second and third digit together seems to make a better combination. The first digit is definitely a size and nib size. Only one of my pens breaks this rule, so is probably not the original nib.