Enough Interest In Mabie Todd, Swan Or Otherwise?

[Cob]

It is said, that the Swan name was introduced 1895. So it should be later than that, perhaps "around 1900". To me it looks like a 3012 Pocket Pen. My Bard 3012 is capped 132 mm long and has a diameter of 8.7mm. It is a great writer! Unfortunately I do not trust the pen to be leak-proof. So I won't carry this Pocket Pen in my pocket. I have also a non-Bard 3012 with box and WWI medals from the pen owner.

 

Some photos of the Bard 3012 here:

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85706#p85706

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=85875#p85875

http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=101200#p101200

 

I used it to sign at the notary once.

 

Cepasaccus, who didn't get the blue-bronze Blackbird today

 

 

Well according to David Moak in Mabie in America, Swan started either in 1888 or more likely 1889 - Moak says "no later than 1889". Later pens carried a reference to the 1895 patent. Apparently George Mabie signed the trademark filings for Swan in 1890.

 

Cob

[Cob]

Cepasaccus,

 

You MUST try harder and buy a BB 2/46

It is a Swan in almost every way. The quality and beauty is that of a Swan. Only the words on the section, feed, nib, clip make it a Blackbird. And mine has a wonderfully flexible nib as well.

 

Yes very handsome: as I wrote above I believe that Mabie Todd really did have some of the loveliest patterns of all.

 

Funny thing about Blackbirds: I have a couple of Blackbird No 3 pens: these are in every way - except the name and the design of the barrel chasing - a Swan Minor No 2; the nibs, stamped Blackbird have heart-shaped breathers and are the same size as a Swan 2!

 

I suppose they were sold at lower prices than the equivalent Swans, which only makes sense I suppose in turnover terms.

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

I think this blue-bronze is the most beautiful color. So I will try harder the next time! Is it only available on Blackbirds?

 

Cob, I believe these patent dates are often misleading and pens are often rather later than sooner. My The Calligraphic has a feed for which the patent date is AFAIR 1889, but on the pen itself is only an unidentified patent date of 1877. Then I have Waterman's Ideal 24 with globe logo and old feed. Globe logo was introduced 1901, new spoon feed latest 1902. So in theory the pen should be from 1901. I believe that pens were longer build and sold than we know. This might be because old stuff was not all sold, production was to lazy to change imprints and other stuff or people wanted traditional stuff.

 

"Mister, we have here our brand new spoon feed! It is much better then the old one."

"Keep your modern stuff! I want the old feed! I know it works reliably and doesn't break!"

 

"I bought 15 years ago this pen." - showing a broken pen - "I want the same pen again. Is that possible?"

 

"This feed has holes in it. I want that of my old pen!"

 

So my Waterman's Ideal 24 might easily be from the later 00s or even the 10s. There is also this filler which Waterman produced for a short time before the lever filler. AFAIK there was still demand for it over 10 years after it vanished from the catalogs. If I remember correctly from schools.

 

My Bard 3012 has btw. exactly the same patent dates as yours. My Co. 3012 has no patent dates and also no 3012 imprint at the end (so I also just assume it is a 3012). The date on the box was "14/12/15". That's either December 15th 1914 or probably December 14th 1915 which would then be probably in the time of the Co. Ltd..

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

I think this blue-bronze is the most beautiful color. So I will try harder the next time! Is it only available on Blackbirds?

 

Cob, I believe these patent dates are often misleading and pens are often rather later than sooner. My The Calligraphic has a feed for which the patent date is AFAIR 1889, but on the pen itself is only an unidentified patent date of 1877. Then I have Waterman's Ideal 24 with globe logo and old feed. Globe logo was introduced 1901, new spoon feed latest 1902. So in theory the pen should be from 1901. I believe that pens were longer build and sold than we know. This might be because old stuff was not all sold, production was to lazy to change imprints and other stuff or people wanted traditional stuff.

 

"Mister, we have here our brand new spoon feed! It is much better then the old one."

"Keep your modern stuff! I want the old feed! I know it works reliably and doesn't break!"

 

"I bought 15 years ago this pen." - showing a broken pen - "I want the same pen again. Is that possible?"

 

"This feed has holes in it. I want that of my old pen!"

 

So my Waterman's Ideal 24 might easily be from the later 00s or even the 10s. There is also this filler which Waterman produced for a short time before the lever filler. AFAIK there was still demand for it over 10 years after it vanished from the catalogs. If I remember correctly from schools.

 

My Bard 3012 has btw. exactly the same patent dates as yours. My Co. 3012 has no patent dates and also no 3012 imprint at the end (so I also just assume it is a 3012). The date on the box was "14/12/15". That's either December 15th 1914 or probably December 14th 1915 which would then be probably in the time of the Co. Ltd..

 

Cepasaccus

That's interesting indeed, but the fact remains that Mabie Todd & Bard ceased to exist in 1907; now Moak does say that some pens marked Mabie, Todd & Bard were produced after that date, but one must remember that there was an 1895 patent.

 

Regarding the blue-bronze of the Blackbird, I have not seen a Swan in that colour; Swan's blue bronze was the 57 colour which is a lot quieter.

 

Cob

Edited April 14, 2015 by Cob

[Cepasaccus]

Which patent from 1895 is that you are referring to?

 

The patent from MAR.6.88 is the patent 378987 for the feeds, but this has IMHO nothing to do with the standard Mabie-Todd split feeds with twisted silver wire. These feeds in 1888 are strange horse hair under feeds. The only suitable patent for the split feed with silver wire is 426692 from APR.29.90, but that is not mentioned on our pens. Unless our pens are both from 1888-90 and got their feed changed later to the split feed, which is quite unlikely, they show that patent dates on pens are quite unreliable. So I see no reason, why a patent from 1895 should be named reliably on a pen. So the range to date our pens is IMHO 1889 (a bit after the date on the pen to be able to change the imprint machine and in the year of the submission of the split feed patent) - 1908 (Company name change and some grace period to change imprint machine).

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

You have made several good points there.

 

I have just looked again at some patent drawings; these i find utterly indecipherable - patent drawings always are with their little letters everywhere and no explanation. Anyway most significantly is that the 1895 patent seems to show the arrangement fo the over/under feed and twisted wire, which my pen certainly has. On the other hand the patent drawing also shows the pen being filled at the nib from an eye-dropper; my pen would definitely not fill like that!

 

Puzzled.

 

C.

[Cepasaccus]

Can you make a photo of your feed?

[Cepasaccus]

I have here photos of two feeds and a drawing of the 1889 patent: http://www.penexchange.de/forum_neu/viewtopic.php?p=84169#p84169

 

The Swan is that which is like yours. This section is the split feed I see (nearly) always in Swans. The section on the image with the patent drawing is a Perry's Alexandra. That feeds looks even more like the patent drawing due to the longer slit.

 

Cepasaccus

[Goudy]

I have Swan eyedroppers with two types of internal wiring:

 

http://i.imgur.com/VOBlfdf.jpg

 

The bottom one is the more familiar type where the wire is just pushed into the barrel end of the feed. I believe it's described as an "agitant".

 

The top one has to do with the nib filling system. The wire goes all the way through the underfeed and attaches to a plug which you can see sticking out of the front of the section. You fill the pen by pulling out the plug and dripping ink from an eyedropper down the nib. You can also (supposedly) adjust the flow by moving the plug up and down slightly, the wire holding it in place.

[Cepasaccus]

The top section has a golden top "feed", hasn't it?

[Goudy]

That's right, a thin metal "overfeed" (not really a feed), almost certainly gold.

 

Here are the filling instructions for that model:

 

http://i.imgur.com/D0AjWVX.jpg

[Cob]

Can you make a photo of your feed?

Yes, here it is - very inky...

 

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

That looks like the normal split feed. On the right side it has that long slit. That feed is in my Bard 3012, Co. 3012, Calligraphic and some others.

 

Cepasaccus

[Cob]

My Swan Minor 2/58 arrived today and it is a very beautiful pen, even with the modified clip. The nib is, in my opinion, a semi-flex. It was listed as broad but, again in my opinion after dipping, it is actually a broad stub! Wonderful writing experience.

 

Now, the decision is - what ink to use? My initial thought, given the nib characteristics, is to use Diamine Asa Blue. Note I have only Diamine inks, R&K Salix, PR electric blue, J. Herbin eclat de saphir and Lamy black.

 

What do you good folks think?

A Swan broad stub is a delight to have; you are doubly fortunate I should say.

 

Cob

[Cepasaccus]

Nibs can be swaped. Got a lovely golden Swan from 1931/2 with a nail nib. Bought another cheapo Swan with a nib like that but much nicer writing behaviour and swaped the nibs. Nice pen with nice nib and uggly pen with uggly nib - a perfect match.

[MarcShiman]

Allow me to be the voice for the American Swans.

 

Its true that their quality started to fall in the 30's. But the late-20's early 30's pens are much larger (albeit less colorful) than their English brethren. The 6 size nib can be found in more than just black plastic and hard rubber pens - all of the Eternalite pens came in a 46 size, and I am aware of the odd 48 in plastic. There are American pens with facets, there is a piston filler (!), a twist filler, and all sorts of other experiments. Most of the British pens are relatively slender sporting number 1 or 2 nibs.

 

This is not to compare to say which is better - in the 30's the two companies went their separate ways from a design perspective, and they each offer something quite different to the collector.

 

There are Mabie Todd NY stamped nibs right up to the closure of the factories in the late 30's. They had multiple manufacturing sites in and around the NYC area, including the Arlington, NJ factory which was originally responsible for turning barrels for the NYC assembling. Eventually it turned out the last of the Swan pens in the US. (last pen on the right)

 

[Cob]

Allow me to be the voice for the American Swans.

 

Its true that their quality started to fall in the 30's. But the late-20's early 30's pens are much larger (albeit less colorful) than their English brethren. The 6 size nib can be found in more than just black plastic and hard rubber pens - all of the Eternalite pens came in a 46 size, and I am aware of the odd 48 in plastic. There are American pens with facets, there is a piston filler (!), a twist filler, and all sorts of other experiments. Most of the British pens are relatively slender sporting number 1 or 2 nibs.

 

This is not to compare to say which is better - in the 30's the two companies went their separate ways from a design perspective, and they each offer something quite different to the collector.

 

There are Mabie Todd NY stamped nibs right up to the closure of the factories in the late 30's. They had multiple manufacturing sites in and around the NYC area, including the Arlington, NJ factory which was originally responsible for turning barrels for the NYC assembling. Eventually it turned out the last of the Swan pens in the US. (last pen on the right)

 

Wonderful stuff, thank you.

 

Are you able to tell me when the "stacked coin band" pens on the left were made? I understood the the stacked coin band ceased about 1927, but surely those pens are from the 1930s judging by their tapered shape.

 

I have one stacked-coin Eternal, English. It is clipless and has a curious domed finial:

 

 

 

It carries no model number, but is clearly a 44ETN - basically at least.

 

I looked at the project link: the collections there are breathtaking.

 

Thanks,

 

Cob

[MarcShiman]

Cob,

 

That's part of the project - to figure it all out. The stacked coin bands disappeared (maybe a little later than 27), but reappeared. The original stacked coin bands were found on pens with the 1915 clips, but the ones that re-emerged were on pens with Swan clips.

 

I have no documentation, only pens. I'm hoping to find some pen wholesaler catalogs from the era, because I can't find any American ads for Swan.

 

Is your pen a 4400?

 

Marc

[Cob]

• Report

   

  Cob,

   

  That's part of the project - to figure it all out. The stacked coin bands disappeared (maybe a little later than 27), but reappeared. The original stacked coin bands were found on pens with the 1915 clips, but the ones that re-emerged were on pens with Swan clips.

   

  I have no documentation, only pens. I'm hoping to find some pen wholesaler catalogs from the era, because I can't find any American ads for Swan.

   

  Is your pen a 4400?

   

  Marc

  Thanks for your reply.

As I said the pen carries no model number, though the section is stamped Swan E4C. I have not seen a picture of another with the domed finial, and of course there's no clip either!

 

I am not really a fan of Eternal nibs, though it must be said this pen writes very smoothly and is utterly reliable; no matter how long one leaves it (inked) it writes immediately. A real credit to Mabie Todd - as if they needed another!

 

There are some American advertisements for Swan reproduced in Moak's book of course, including the rather bizarre one that states "The Pen of the British Empire"

 

Vinegar Joe Stilwell or Admiral Ernest King wouldn't have liked that very much I fear!

 

Incidentally I have been told that Mabie Todd USA made all the nibs up to 1931 as apparently the English company only started manufacturing nibs in that year. Do you have any information on this?

 

Rgds

 

Cob

Edited April 25, 2015 by Cob

[sidthecat]

Those gold-banded ringtops fill me with acquisitive greed...Luckily, I gratified this with an eBay purchase: a black/green ringtop with a "Swan" nib. It seems like a late pen - does anyone know when they rebranded the nibs?