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Sending An Extraordinary Vintage Wet Noodle To Bock Nibs In Germany

flex wet noodle

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#21 Nanor

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 11:58

There might not be sufficient demand and it might not happen, but it certainly won't happen if no one tries, so thanks for persuing this. 

Edited by Nanor, 16 March 2015 - 14:25.


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#22 Intellidepth

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 13:19

I've emailed Bock


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#23 FarmBoy

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 16:17

Our offer to manufacture flexible gold nibs still stands. I think we (altecgreen and I) decided an order of 5000 nibs would suffice at an estimated cost of 250 each, exact cost to be determined after size and type of nib is chosen. I recall green wanted a 25% payment at time of order and progress payments through the manufacturing process.

At any rate, how many people would plunk down a few hundred for a bare nib in advance? And I'd say 200 each would be a pretty good price for a modern 14k gold custom nib. Look at the cost to go from steel to gold nibs on new pen offerings as a guide.

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#24 flyshot

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Posted 15 March 2015 - 19:01

How can you tell if a vintage flex nib has been overly flexed & thinned out to the point of acquiring small hairline fractures in the gold?
Would a true vintage nib reproduction be a safer bet???
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#25 Sach

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 10:48

Good news everyone..!

 

Got this email from Bock this morning..

 

Hi Sach,

 

Thank you for your fast reply.

 

Of course, we can produce nibs based on a vintage design, but we have to know more about the nib from 1920.

If the nib will be created and new designed based on a vintage Waterman nib, we need a permission of Waterman, first.

 

Furthermore, we have to know if you use your own ink feeder and housing, which writing point (e.g. F, M, B), Bock logo, neutral or

your own logo/design, material (e.g. steel, titanium, gold 14K/18K), surface of nib (e.g. 2-tone, gilded, shiny), Quantity, etc.

 

Please send us the permission, some pictures, technical drawings and some sample nibs (if possible by post) to prepare you an offer.

 

 

Looking forward to receiving your soon reply.



#26 FarmBoy

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 13:49

That is good news.  You will want to inquire with Bock if they can match the specific alloy used in the vintage nib.


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#27 watch_art

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 14:10

Permission from Waterman to copy a nib almost 100 years old?  Really??


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#28 Nanor

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 14:37

Patent should only be valid for 20 years max?

#29 Sach

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 15:48

A little odd with the permission side of things, but I'll make enquiries. In the mean time, does anyone have an exceptional vintage wet noodle that is unbranded. this would save a lot of hassle!

 

Also, Bock's minimum order value is only 1500 Euros, but additional cost will likely happen from the the additional parts that they will need to make.

 

I've exchanged further emails with them since this morning, and this all seems very promising indeed. I'll be getting in touch with major vendors myself in the forthcoming days to see what they think, and the larger the initial order, the better for everyone.

 

Personally, I think we can really make a go of this-I ask anyone reading this post to please please spread the word and get as many people interested as possible, as I think that will make a really big difference, and I'll promise to give 110% to this project...!



#30 jar

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 15:55

 

Also, Bock's minimum order value is only 1500 Euros, but additional cost will likely happen from the the additional parts that they will need to make.

 

 

 

I think you will find that is a minimum order for basic nibs; what you are talking about will likely be at least an order of magnitude greater. Wet Noodle flex requires metallurgy that is simply not common these days.


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#31 hari317

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:11

I think this is good news and Bock have a proven track record of producing nibs, at least we know that they can make some very good regular nibs.

 

copying an existing nib cosmetically is different from copying the writing characteristics. I hope the contact person from Bock have understood this correctly.

 

Germany has produced some wonderful flex nibs and I am sure Bock have produced some in the past, why not just tell them that we want a superflex nib?


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#32 Sach

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:15

Hey Hari

 

I exchanged email with Bock to this effect: writing characteristic are paramount..!

 

I wrote the following
 
The permission aspect from Waterman might get a bit to complicated. Essentially, it's needs to be like a vintage wet noodle with flex characteristics that one does not find in modern nibs. The feed, housing can be looked at and adjusted later, but it's need a fast feed to keep up with the highly flexible nib.
 
Monotone 14k gold would be ideal, but the design and function is most important. Some vintage flex nibs were in fact less than 14k, but a 14k alloy that allows the best flex would be ideal and I'm sure you know about far better than I do!

I can send you some nibs in a few weeks, but let me know what you think so far!
 
Regards 

I think this is good news and Bock have a proven track record of producing nibs, at least we know that they can make some very good regular nibs.

 

copying an existing nib cosmetically is different from copying the writing characteristics. I hope the contact person from Bock have understood this correctly.

 

Germany has produced some wonderful flex nibs and I am sure Bock have produced some in the past, why not just tell them that we want a superflex nib?



#33 SteveE

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:20

I hate to be negative, but I work in a metal-stamping company.  A couple of years ago, we were approached to quote the cost to make unfinished nibs for one of the European retailers to use in making house-brand pens.  They wanted us to fabricate the nibs "in flat" on a reel, basically a long, thin strip of connected flat nibs, prior to slitting, that could easily be separated by a machine in a later step in manufacture.  In a plant such as ours, we would have wanted a minimum order of 25,000 pieces or more, and an annual usage quantity of several times that to make it a profitable endeavor for us.  In addition to that, the cost of the tools and dies to make the nib blanks would have run over $50,000 USD.

 

Now, keep in mind that we are a supplier to the international auto industry, so the plant is set up for high precision, high volume production.  There are probably shops that would be happy to produce smaller lots, but I would still expect order quantities to be in the thousands, with the cost of tooling being the biggest stumbling block.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is the actual fabrication cost - operator/packer labor and machine time.  For a job like this, it would probably take longer to set the die and press than it would to run the press and make the parts.

 

What might make more sense (to me) would be to contact product design at Bock and see if they can devise a way to modify the design of a current production nib to create the flex you want.  Perhaps using a different alloy, or making a slight change to an existing tool would get you there.  I don't know the answers to these questions.


Edited by SteveE, 16 March 2015 - 16:21.


#34 Sach

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:22

 

 

I think you will find that is a minimum order for basic nibs; what you are talking about will likely be at least an order of magnitude greater. Wet Noodle flex requires metallurgy that is simply not common these days.

 

I think we are all somewhat stuck on the idea of ancient writing that is undecipherable. The metallurgical catalogue has been refined immensely over the last hundred years. everyone should look at the amount of information available online for the various steel alloys , the data and information is astonishing.

Add to that the various new uses of gold and the Platinum, group metals in industry, means that formulating alloys and sourcing the correct alloy should not be a problem, especially in a country with the industrial base that Germany has..



#35 hari317

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:25

Sach, I am very interested and will be watching this thread.

 

I think let's get to the nib first, the feeder will eventually come. Bock have ebonite feeders on their no 8 nibs and I am sure they know how to go about this for a smaller nib.

 

First thing is to freeze the basic specs:

 

  • Nib physical size: 27mm(#5), 35mm(#6)
  • Nibs to be supplied with housing: the bottle neck may be the very small orifice that these housings have to accommodate the international converter, we may have to see if just a sleeve can be provided without the nozzle at the rear like the pelikan nib units for example.
  • Imprint on the nib: No imprint except the gold carat value in my view

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#36 Sach

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 16:50

I hate to be negative, but I work in a metal-stamping company.  A couple of years ago, we were approached to quote the cost to make unfinished nibs for one of the European retailers to use in making house-brand pens.  They wanted us to fabricate the nibs "in flat" on a reel, basically a long, thin strip of connected flat nibs, prior to slitting, that could easily be separated by a machine in a later step in manufacture.  In a plant such as ours, we would have wanted a minimum order of 25,000 pieces or more, and an annual usage quantity of several times that to make it a profitable endeavor for us.  In addition to that, the cost of the tools and dies to make the nib blanks would have run over $50,000 USD.

 

Now, keep in mind that we are a supplier to the international auto industry, so the plant is set up for high precision, high volume production.  There are probably shops that would be happy to produce smaller lots, but I would still expect order quantities to be in the thousands, with the cost of tooling being the biggest stumbling block.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is the actual fabrication cost - operator/packer labor and machine time.  For a job like this, it would probably take longer to set the die and press than it would to run the press and make the parts.

 

What might make more sense (to me) would be to contact product design at Bock and see if they can devise a way to modify the design of a current production nib to create the flex you want.  Perhaps using a different alloy, or making a slight change to an existing tool would get you there.  I don't know the answers to these questions.

 

I think these are all good points, but will require consultation with them in due course. If needed, i can even go and see them in Germany in person to make this happen. I think Hari has some very good points about the exact specs that we need to think about first, then prioritise the functionality of the nib first and foremost in its ability to flex, then make that all happen with all the tools that we have. As I said earlier, we need to think bottom up and not top down..


Edited by Sach, 16 March 2015 - 16:50.


#37 pepsiplease69

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 19:54

 

Sach, I am very interested and will be watching this thread.

 

I think let's get to the nib first, the feeder will eventually come. Bock have ebonite feeders on their no 8 nibs and I am sure they know how to go about this for a smaller nib.

 

First thing is to freeze the basic specs:

 

  • Nib physical size: 27mm(#5), 35mm(#6)
  • Nibs to be supplied with housing: the bottle neck may be the very small orifice that these housings have to accommodate the international converter, we may have to see if just a sleeve can be provided without the nozzle at the rear like the pelikan nib units for example.
  • Imprint on the nib: No imprint except the gold carat value in my view

 

 

 

I think for me personally the #6 size is more pervasive.

 

I would also prefer the nib to be supplied with feed and housing so it can be screwed right into the section of an edison or a Franklin Christoph or similar.

 

Imprint on the nib, not neccessary, except the constituency of the gold, 14k etc.

 

I'd also like to know if this can be accomplished with steel insead of gold.

 

Another thing is trying to drum up support for this as a grassroots initiative.

 

Sach: I think you mentioned some of the online retailers we could talk to about signing on with this.

 

If this can be an add-on nib option for something that is already established in the market like Edison or FC, then I think we might have an easier go of it.

 

Earlier in this thread, the option was mentioned to have it as a screw-in nib for Pelikan 600 or the like. I don't own an Pelikan 600, primarily because its a bit more pricey, and size-wise I'm quite okay with M200 lineup.

 

I don't know what the majority of the market demand looks like, do folks step up to 600 or 800 and pay the extra cash for the larger size pen, or like me, they're okay with the small-ish 200 size and save the dollars to use for nicer nibs.

 

I did order some full-flex Pelikan gold nibs from Richard Binder and they're awesome, but then I'm tied with only the M200's with which I can use those nibs.

 

This thread does seem quite encouraging the way it's unfolding.



#38 watch_art

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 19:58

If you want your nibs to screw into an Edison or FC, or anybody who uses Jowo, you would need to go with Jowo instead of Bock.


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#39 pepsiplease69

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Posted 16 March 2015 - 21:33

If you want your nibs to screw into an Edison or FC, or anybody who uses Jowo, you would need to go with Jowo instead of Bock.

 

Fair enough.. What brand pens would be compatible with a Bock nib housing? I thought they were pretty universal.

 

I have a danitrio with a #6 bock nib which has a screw-in nib housing. But Danitrio is quite an exclusive brand. I don't know how widespread it has been adopted. I don't know of any other names like that.

 

Maybe Kaweco?



#40 The Blue Knight

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 00:30

 

Fair enough.. What brand pens would be compatible with a Bock nib housing? I thought they were pretty universal.

 

I have a danitrio with a #6 bock nib which has a screw-in nib housing. But Danitrio is quite an exclusive brand. I don't know how widespread it has been adopted. I don't know of any other names like that.

 

Maybe Kaweco?

 

I think bock nibs look a lot nicer then Jowo. Jowo ones are too angular and lack curvature in the wings.  I think a lot pen would look nicer with a number 6 with a Bock nib over Jowo. 





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