Spots And Dots -- Origins Of Sheaffer's White Dot

[Vintagepens]

Now what about this?

Dec 1908 issue of the American Hay, Flour, and Feed Journal, p. 17

 

Edited January 21, 2015 by Vintagepens

[jonveley]

December, 1908... in a publication probably read widely around Iowa. Establishes a pattern of appropriating other marks for use on pens, don't it?

Edited January 21, 2015 by jonveley

[FarmBoy]

Jon,

Kansas is more a wheat state, than is Iowa.

 

But close enough for a game horseshoes.

 

Todd

[kirchh]

Not to mention it is the "ideal" flour...!

 

And this pen ad...

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Bulls_eye_ad_very_small_detail.jpg

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Now what about this?

Dec 1908 issue of the American Hay, Flour, and Feed Journal, p. 17

 

Bullseye_of_Perfection_flour.jpg

 

1908? Latecomers! Copycats!!

 

January 1906 issue of Motor:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Gray_and_Davis_Lamps_3-1906_Motor.jpg

 

Possible 1905 issue of Horseless Age (Google Books made a mess of it):

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Gray_and_Davis_Lamps_1905_Horseless_Age.jpg

 

--Daniel

Edited January 21, 2015 by kirchh

[Lazard 20]

 

Now what about this?

 

January 1906 issue of Motor:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Gray_and_Davis_Lamps_3-1906_Motor.jpg

 

Possible 1905 issue of Horseless Age (Google Books made a mess of it):

 

--Daniel

 

About this, and many another bullseyes my thoughts are, and with minor modifications always has been, so:

 

At that time many, many people understand the WD image, a small white circle inside, not into a shape square or rhomboid o similar, but precisely inside a darker a larger circle -see trademark-, as "bull´s eye of perfection" (not as a pipe) wherewith Sheaffer´S graphic designers or others could have done a real bullseye whith their work creating a "WD" whose meaning would be familiar to all, or almost all. The logo, with minimum restyling, has survived to ours days. Congratulations to them for their creativity... or good luck.

 

In addition thereto:

 

Or Walter Sheaffer took his leitmotiv of a existing one, ergo Sheaffer'S copied WD from a pipe (ironic mode)

 

or well,

 

Considering a bullseye, and arrows as Sheaffer´S represent a target or goal since, not from Gray&Davis nor Sheaffer´S bullseye, but many time ago

 

http://s24.postimg.org/5c5w16qyt/arrows_bull_s_eye_lazard.jpg

 

this sound as sound and if, and only if, Walter Sheaffer took the original bullseye idea of this Gray&Davis ad, another ad, ancient Greek image or any other site as fountain of inspiration, spot pipe theory of this topic would be smoke.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Lazard 20

[jonveley]

Jon,

Kansas is more a wheat state, than is Iowa.

 

But close enough for a game horseshoes.

 

Todd

 

Sorry if I painted with too broad a brush there, Todd.

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

Don't forget to post your apology in the other thread for accusing me of hiding the fact that the target image I've shown you over and over with a dark center is not a Sheaffer ad (it is one, of course).

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Lazard -

 

Don't forget to post your apology in the other thread for accusing me of hiding the fact that the target image I've shown you over and over with a dark center is not a Sheaffer ad (it is one, of course).

 

--Daniel

 

Unfortunate newly. Hidding no longer included. As your wishes are my command and I corrected it yesterday. Please look at my last post here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/236305-represent-the-white-dot-something/page-2

 

No obstantly I summarize here:

 

"My" bull's eye is Sheaffer's. And it has a dark center and a lighter outer ring. (1), said Daniel.

 

(1) Shows, as I do, complete photo, origin and date and when I joined to this topic we´ll talk. For the time being we have one more bullseye into Sheaffer'S iconography. I will be happy to incorporate this Sheaffer´S bullseye to my large collection. Lazard replied without calification.

 

Your wishes fulfilled whenever I can. You´re welcome. We see!

Edited January 21, 2015 by Lazard 20

[ANM]

deleted

Edited January 21, 2015 by ANM

[Ernst Bitterman]

The repetition of the phrase "Bull's-eye of perfection" suggested that there must have been some pop culture hook being clung to. The Google Ngrams-ajigger doesn't give anything for those words, however punctuated. "Eye of perfection", though, gives a lot of late 19th c. references to a middle eastern variant of the concept of evil eye (something to do with perfection in the mundane world being an invitation to divine displeasure), and actually catches up the lamp ads above.

 

So we may look to Gray & Davis, provisionally, of the concept of "Bull's-eye of perfection" with all its subsequent references to hitting it, and also quiver at the possibility of curses attendant upon the ongoing trademark of Sheaffer.

[Vintagepens]

A search for "bull's eye of perfection" in Google Books turns up a number of usages in the later 19th century, mostly in a devotional context. It seems it may derive from the writings of St. Francis de Sales, where it more often is translated as "target of perfection".

Edited January 21, 2015 by Vintagepens

[Ernst Bitterman]

Huh. Right you are. It wasn't doing that an hour ago. {shakes fist at internet in general} The Ngram viewer still doesn't believe in it, though.

 

Personal embarrassment aside, it's nice to see it wasn't an ad flack behind the phrase.

[kirchh]

November 6, 1901 Seattle Star:

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Remington_Typewriters_Seattle_Star_11-6-1901.jpg

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

kirchh, on 21 Jan 2015 - 18:58, said:

 

Lazard: You still owe me an apology. For more than two years, I have told you that the detail image I've posted is from a Sheaffer ad

--Daniel

 

Inadmissible... because you did not say it was a Sheaffer'S ad -you will know why- so it was understood that it was a Gray&Davis ad or Waterman ad or other advertiser. You occult name, sentence and most image Let see.

 

Here's a detail from an advertising piece from around 1915:

http://s22.postimg.org/m3g3bweu5/Black_Bullseye_Detail.jpg

 

What color is the bullseye? Daniel said.

 

Where FPN readers can read or to see that you're referring to a Sheaffer'S ads or Sheaffer'S bullseye? Lazard dispute.

 

I provided a picture of a bullseye from an advertising piece from before the White Dot was created. Do you agree that the center circle is not white? Daniel questioned.

From before 1924 but where FPN readers can read or to see that you're referring to a Sheaffer'S ads or Sheaffer'S bullseye? Lazard enquiry.

- I presented evidence of an advertising piece from the teens showing a bullseye. What color was the bullseye? Daniel wrote.

 

How FPN readers can understand, to read or to see you're referring to aSheaffer´S ad or Sheaffer´S bullseye? Lazard

 

- In the only color advertisement I know if, the center of the bullseye is dark, and the surrounding ring is red, with alternating light/red rings around that. Daniel said.

 

Where FPN readers can read that you're referring to a Sheaffer'S ads or Sheaffer'S bullseye? White is now light? Why you occult name, sentence and most image? Lazard rhetorically question now.

 

So it is considered not applicable apologize for my part due to your nonfeasance or defect in writing.

 

About this Sheaffer´S ad partially hidden until today, or yesterday, afther two years where we can see now, in this days, that is a Sheaffer´S bullseye red, white, red, white, red, white, red, white-black for now, I´m glad because is another link between 1913 and 1924, Daniel say, and this indication or clue isn´t connected with a pipe, so I incorporate this image to my "small" Sheaffer'S bullseye collection that I reproduce below once updated. and we´ll talk about it when you see show it as whole ad, date and place where it was published in order to appreciate its full meaning and origin.

 

http://s7.postimg.org/ospfhf1m3/sheaffer_pens_arrow_bulls_eye_Lazard.jpg

[Roger W.]

White dot is NOT a bullseye. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Roger W.

[Lazard 20]

White dot is NOT a bullseye. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Roger W.

 

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt... for Roger W. who has been observing the WD 40 years, without wondering where it came from, their friends, their friends and some people more or for entire global world?

 

Indeed when WD appears in a fpen is not a bull's-eye: is a circle of white radite inside a darker Sheaffer´S radite, or hard rubber -we do not know which was the first one, first item, to be manufactured with WD- flat top cap. but WD could, perhaps, be inspired by a bull's-eye.

 

Although I do not mind if WD was inspired by a pipe o by a tear in a black world, o by nothing, the fact is that nobody here has shown the impossibility that WD could, perhaps, be inspired by a bull´s eye. Otherwise, here has been shown indications or clues in this sense that some people value more, some less and others, as you, nothing. C´est la vie!

 

 

 

You're lying. It was clear to everyone reading this thread and the related threads for over two years -- including you -- that I was referring to a Sheaffer's ad.

 

Lazard say: Wrong. very wrong and uneducated. Unthinkable in a Sheaffer'S authority. If you go down that road I will not answer you. You have to prove you has filed this limited picture (where even I couldn´t see if arrow was a nib as finally has been), as complete picture before nowadays or Sheaffer'S bullseye mention or Sheaffer'S ad mention but it seems that it is easier for you insult and to try offend others. The fact that you resort to mere insults does not speak well of you, it clearly talk about your lack of arguments. It´s a pity!! Bye, bye, this gets ugly.

 

So finally, although for effects of to be a bullseye source of inspiration of WD or not don´´t affect that has one or more ads with color, where all or nearly all in which represents Sheaffer'S after it appearance is white, I tell you..

 

1. I thought your bull's-eye was not Sheaffer'S and the fact that I wrote:

 

"THERE ARE MANY BULL´S EYE ... BUT NOT ALL ARE SHEAFFER'S" will make believe to people bona fide ..

 

2. Obviously, if I had known your ad was a Sheaffer'S ad from frst days I´d have used in my favor this ad by to be another bull's-eye of perfection additional to foundational catalog before WD and I did not during two years.

 

3. As an intelligent FPN users alert me could be an explanation for wich you have shown for two years this target only partially. He thinks the sequence lacks rhythm.So the sense done by the illustrator would to have the following sense:

 

The target is completely red and white and the secuence is:

 

Red-target

White-target

Red-target

White-target

Red-target

White-target

Red-target

White-bullseye. There are white in the bulls eye.

Black-bullseye. Ink of fountain pen.

 

You will know why you don't shown the entire sequence in your photo during two years, nor next Sheaffer´s name nor sentence "Bull´s eye of perfectión" I dont need any explication, I dont want any explication, no longer care about your explanations... not your bad writing style -in its double meaning-

 

 

http://s22.postimg.org/m3g3bweu5/Black_Bullseye_Detail.jpg

Edited January 22, 2015 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt... for Roger W. who has been observing the WD 40 years, without wondering where it came from, their friends, their friends and some people more or for entire global world?

 

Have you noticed that despite over two years of effort on your part, you could not convince a single other reader of FPN to post his/her agreement with you?

 

Even you wrote, "I assert nothing in this topic".

 

Indeed when WD appears in a fpen is not a bull's-eye: is a circle of white radite inside a darker Sheaffer´S radite, or hard rubber

 

Exactly. It's not a bull's eye. For one thing, there's no outer ring in the trademark. This is proven in application, such as here:

 

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/4earlypens2.jpg

(Photo courtesy Roger Wooten)

 

And the traditional color of an archery target's bull's eye is gold, not white, as Lazard claimed. And Sheaffer showed their bull's eye as black when using color.

 

The color doesn't match, there's no outer ring, and the trademark specifically contains only the dot.

 

No bull's eye.

 

inside a darker Sheaffer´S radite, or hard rubber -we do not know which was the first one, first item, to be manufactured with WD- flat top cap.

 

All the evidence indicates it was first used in Jade pens, not black Radite or hard rubber pens. You had earlier claimed, "the first White Dot was in a flat top black," and "The first White Dot is on Sheaffer S BCHR."

 

Thank you for retracting these claims.

 

 

but WD could, perhaps, be inspired by a bull's-eye.

 

Although I do not mind if WD was inspired by a pipe o by a tear in a black world, o by nothing, the fact is that nobody here has shown the impossibility that WD could, perhaps, be inspired by a bull´s eye.

 

Logical fallacy -- argument from ignorance, false dilemma fallacy, negative proof fallacy, etc. If that's all you have left, we are in good shape.

 

--Daniel

Edited January 22, 2015 by kirchh

[FarmBoy]

For me it is and always has been a white dot. Please place me next to Roger in the line-up against your opinion.

 

I am also convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the white dot has nothing to do with a bull's eye or an archery target.

 

I am also aware that I can't state what I want without risking moderation so I'll say that a lot of what one reads on the internet is bunk.

Edited January 22, 2015 by FarmBoy

[kirchh]

 

Lazard say: Wrong. very wrong and uneducated. Unthinkable in a Sheaffer'S authority. If you go down that road I will not answer you. You have to prove you has filed this limited picture (where even I couldn´t see if arrow was a nib as finally has been), as complete picture before nowadays or Sheaffer'S bullseye mention or Sheaffer'S ad mention but it seems that it is easier for you insult and to try offend others. The fact that you resort to mere insults does not speak well of you, it clearly talk about your lack of arguments. It´s a pity!! Bye, bye, this gets ugly.

 

http://s22.postimg.org/m3g3bweu5/Black_Bullseye_Detail.jpg

 

Once again, you are incorrect on all counts.

 

It was clear to all -- including you -- that I was referring to a Sheaffer ad showing the target with a dark center. You will be unable to produce anyone else to support your claim.

 

Here's another example, from 2012:

 

Roger wrote,

 

 

It would be interesting to have the actual cover [of the early Sheaffer catalog showing a target and "Bull's Eye of Perfection"] as the one we have is a black and white photocopy.

 

To which I replied,

 

True. The detail I posted is from the only color image I know of that includes that imagery and slogan, and the center is dark while the next ring is red.

 

It is quite remarkable the degree of dishonesty you will engage in while attempting to support your position. I wonder if you have any idea how such bizarre claims are perceived.

 

Probably not.

 

...it clearly talk about your lack of arguments

 

Yet everyone here who has posted an opinion agrees with my arguments, and no one seems to agree with your arguments, despite over two years of effort on your part.

 

What does that say about the quality of my argument -- and the quality of yours?

 

--Daniel

Edited January 22, 2015 by kirchh