Do Nibs Smooth Out Over Time?

[bayindirh]

Butter smooth.....not baby bottom smooth. Baby bottom is the nib skips, often on the first letter...or if one pauses.

No one wants baby bottom....which can come from too smooth, when not done properly. Sometimes certain pen companies have baby bottom nibs, in so many folks want butter smooth at all costs.

 

Standardization of paper bags is not really the question...nor even something that sounds like an answer. One is not professionally working nibs. One is cheaping out to get rid of drag. Works fine!

It unlike a buff stick or micro-mesh don't eat the nib tipping enough to make stubs or CI or butter smooth.

 

The brown paper bag is for those with an obstinate wallet, to remove drag from old 'cheap'** sat a couple generations in the dark of a drawer pens. For those in The Pen of the Week in the Mail Club and or the Pen of the Month Club, whose money is all locked up waiting for a postman.

 

**Works on expensive cheap vintage pens....in vintage pens are on the whole cheaper than new, which should not have any drag...in it's new and has not had time to develop 'Iridium-rust'.

 

I will admit not to have used the brown paper bag for a couple of years. I'm in the pen of the quarter club, and some my resent pens were used often enough they they don't have drag.

 

It is though a limited option readily available and cheap. Not everyone knows he's going to continue to buy old cheap draggy pens.

 

Any one who wants 'butter smooth' has go to spend the money for it.

 

 

Oh, I used the baby bottom smooth to describe butter smooth then, a wrong word selection due to inexperience, sorry.

 

I think that I won't ever want to touch micromesh or buff stick for a very very long time. As I said before, I'm after pens that write good enough, at least for now

 

I have some old pens, which have slept for more than 20 years. Maybe I will use brown paper on them, I'm not even sure about that anymore.

 

Thanks for the valuable information, I will keep that in mind.

 

Thanks again.

[pacyhdermprincess]

My Pilot Metropolitan became buttery smooth after a month. I have a Lamy EF nib that is buttery smooth but I have a Lamy F that is toothy--that's just odd to me that a finer nib is smoother than the same nib in F.

[jmnav]

Do nibs smooth out over time, you ask? ABSOLUTELY YES!!!

 

Does my answer sound definitive enough? I hope so.

 

It happens I'm not a pen colector but a user so I've only used extensively like three pens in more than thirty years (I started with a Daniel Hetcher when I was a teenager that lasted me about three years, then a Parker Vector at Uni, and then a Pelikan 200 for almost twenty years). The Etcher had a soft nib's tip than went from M to BB in my time at high school (well, the Spanish equivalent); then, the Parker (which I still own) also showed its fatigue along Uni (while not so much) and the Pelikan is now basically butter smooth to an incredible point (on my hand, maybe not on others').

 

With enough time, kilometer after kilometer written, nibs will not only smooth but will even wear out -heck even rock solid mountains will flat out given enough time.

[Mongoosey]

I found my Pilot Metro Medium nib smoothed out significantly after a month or two of writing, and several months on it's buttery smooth.

 

I was surprised, and now it's a beauty of a nib. I didn't like using European Fine/Japanese Medium sized nibs before, but now this one is perfect.

 

I have a Pilot Custom 74-M on the way now because I was so impressed.

 

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I personally am not a fan of the Brown Paper Bag technique. I tried a cheap paper bag and it did smooth out the nib, but made it draggy.

 

And the paper has inconsistencies you feel in the polish.

 

But I will say that I only used one type of paper bag. I guess if you find a more consistent surface (Envelope, better bag) that has a rough-like surface and it works for you than that's alright...

 

But it's not my first suggestion. I think it's worth breaking in a nib, but as long as it's descent from the start. I don't think it's worth taking the time to break in a nib if it's not descent from the start.

[TheDutchGuy]

I've noticed that some nibs feel smoother after a few months. However... people sometimes say that fountain pens adjust themselves to the hand of their master, but I think it's the other way around. I think that over time the writer gradually and subconsciously adjusts to the pen. This might also be a factor in the perceived increase in smoothness.

[Honeybadgers]

Yes, they will smooth out. No, it doesn't happen fast. it will take months of regular use. paper is abrasive, yes, but VERY, VERY mildly so.

[Bo Bo Olson]

First one must check to see if the tines are aligned. That can happen to even the best pens due to rough shipping. The brown paper bag trick is only good for removing drag....it will not make a nib butter smooth. It will bring it up to the stage under that; good and smooth.

 

One does Not Use Cheap brown Paper Bags!!!!!!

One uses the better ones ...............which unfortunately.....most young folks don't know enough about. (Soon though....a properly packed, square, balanced paper bag (doubled more than likely, the best come already doubled two thin ones essentially glued even if they are not)....just in case you find some at a flea market .) Look in old attics.....

The white or full color advertising ones are no good, they are too smooth.

 

There is an art to packing a paper bag.....there is no art to shoving stuff in a plastic round bag. There is no form to the plastic bag....nothing can be braced, like using a cereal box so cans can be stacked....eggs under the bread....on the top of the bag.

Not tomatoes at the bottom of a plastic bag.

 

I did correct some nice young guy....who kept getting fuzz in his nibs from using a hairy brown paper bag. As soon as he got a better paper bag, everything was hunky dory.

He didn't know the difference. And in the age of plastic bowling ball bags how could he know the difference. Half a glance, a quick feel, and I of course know the difference between too poor and great for fountain pen surgery. Know how to get up and change channels too....to bad there's no exercise TV's made any more.

 

One can also use the back of a legal pad. It is good for drag.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[Mongoosey]

Yes, the Cheap Brown Paper Bags are a bad idea IMO.

__________________________________

 

I do think it's a 2-way street as well: The nib naturally buffs out over time simply from writing on paper, and the writer adjusts to the nib.

 

I think the nib does smooth according to the hand posture and style. Heck, if you write on micromesh long enough you start to notice that rather quickly, so it's good that it's a gradual process.

 

I do agree that one acquaints to the idiosyncrasies of a nib and it's sweet spot, but I think the sweet spot opens up, and the idiosyncrasies become more forgiving along this natural buffing.

 

I did receive two Fine Steel Goulet Nibs in the mail, both pretty congruent in feedback, and it did not take long for the one used often to smooth out to a degree that created a noticeable/significant difference.

 

I wasn't a fan of Finer nibs when I started out in fountain pens and stuck to European Mediums or broads, but after finally giving one a chance for a longer duration, I find that 2-way street accommodates them quite nicely to my preference once they naturally buff out over time.

 

And I think if you have a descent nib to start out with, it's worth the time.

 

I prefer this naturally buffing much more than using micromesh.

______________________________

 

I do wonder if certain papers smooth out the nib more or less. For example: Does 52 gsm Tomoe River Paper buff a nib smoother than ClaireFontaine smoother than Mnemosyne smoother than 20lb copy paper?

[Bo Bo Olson]

I don't think regular slick paper, will 'smooth' a nib much..........once in One Man, One Pen days, a nib tip was expected to last 7-10 years of constant use (in the Golden Age of Paper).........1xxx Esterbrooks a year, 2xxx 1 1/2-2 years, and those were just rolled steel.

 

We no longer live in One Pen days........nor use a pen as much, so I think regular writing for smoothing, will take quite a while...many months or even a year.

 

Being lazy, I'm not into polishing a nib until it's butter smooth............can't use the slick paper then.

Good and smooth ....no drag, works fine for me....and is a lot less work.

 

I grew up with a old fashioned ball point. In Germany we're often 10 years behind the power curve. So it took 10 years of free ball points before free gel pens started happening..........so I was pleasantly surprised by how good they; gel/hybred were.

Good and smooth nibs ...depending on ink and paper, is only a tad smoother than a gel pen..if that.

 

If one was coming from a old style ball point, good and smooth would be more than good enough.

 

If one was coming from a Gel pen.....that really ...goes into the 'wet line' that was searched for by younger posters just into fountain pens. (As far as I know we never worried about that back in the day.....we were living primitive ink awareness days.) Butter smooth is that 'step up' from Gel pen, when matched with a wet glistening ink.

Most don't get into paying a premium for any top paper until later, much less Rhodia or Clairefontaine Triomphe, so butter smooth works fine on cheap copy paper.

 

How smooth is smooth? What is wanted?

Some would think toothy....like writing with a pencil to be scratchy. Some want a touch of feel of the paper (not talking linen effect or laid paper)....good and smooth. Others don't want to feel paper at all....which butter smooth will give them.

Then butter smooth meets slick paper.

Wet inks can help screw up how a pen feels........one will have drag with one dry ink, none with say Sailor or Waterman......wet and dry also = high and low viscosity.

It's much easier to go to the micro-mesh than fiddle around with matching ink and paper to a nib.

 

Luckily it only takes a second or two to go from butter smooth, to good and smooth, using a lower grit of same micro-mesh buff stick one spent so much time making the nib butter smooth.

 

What is smooth enough, that is the question. I like the good and smooth of a Pelikan 200's nib. Others wish it butter smooth like the modern 400/600/800&1000's nib..............I find them a bit too slick for me................besides other things like flex rating.

But those can have baby bottom from over polishing.

So can DIY.

 

The good brown paper bag trick is three-four 15 second sets....good for learning how to rotate the nib constantly..............When dealing with micro-mesh one is dealing with 2-3 second sets, and it helps the rotation is automatic, the strokes don't have to be thought of....just tiny in stead of big.

 

The question comes down to what ink and paper do you use..........how slick do you want your nib?

In most modern nibs of a good quality pen, don't have drag, there is no reason to use the brown paper bag....except to learn. I don't think Parker, Cross, JoWo or Bock nibs need much 'smoothing', unless one is after butter smooth.....if so buy MB or Pelikan (Outside the 200) and save the work.

 

Are Chinese tipped nibs so poor that they have to be smoothed up....to be OK? If so, then practice is cheap enough.

[Mongoosey]

I don't think regular slick paper, will 'smooth' a nib much..........once in One Man, One Pen days, a nib tip was expected to last 7-10 years of constant use (in the Golden Age of Paper).........1xxx Esterbrooks a year, 2xxx 1 1/2-2 years, and those were just rolled steel.

 

We no longer live in One Pen days........nor use a pen as much, so I think regular writing for smoothing, will take quite a while...many months or even a year.

 

Being lazy, I'm not into polishing a nib until it's butter smooth............can't use the slick paper then.

Good and smooth ....no drag, works fine for me....and is a lot less work.

 

I grew up with a old fashioned ball point. In Germany we're often 10 years behind the power curve. So it took 10 years of free ball points before free gel pens started happening..........so I was pleasantly surprised by how good they; gel/hybred were.

Good and smooth nibs ...depending on ink and paper, is only a tad smoother than a gel pen..if that.

 

If one was coming from a old style ball point, good and smooth would be more than good enough.

 

If one was coming from a Gel pen.....that really ...goes into the 'wet line' that was searched for by younger posters just into fountain pens. (As far as I know we never worried about that back in the day.....we were living primitive ink awareness days.) Butter smooth is that 'step up' from Gel pen, when matched with a wet glistening ink.

Most don't get into paying a premium for any top paper until later, much less Rhodia or Clairefontaine Triomphe, so butter smooth works fine on cheap copy paper.

 

How smooth is smooth? What is wanted?

Some would think toothy....like writing with a pencil to be scratchy. Some want a touch of feel of the paper (not talking linen effect or laid paper)....good and smooth. Others don't want to feel paper at all....which butter smooth will give them.

Then butter smooth meets slick paper.

Wet inks can help screw up how a pen feels........one will have drag with one dry ink, none with say Sailor or Waterman......wet and dry also = high and low viscosity.

It's much easier to go to the micro-mesh than fiddle around with matching ink and paper to a nib.

 

Luckily it only takes a second or two to go from butter smooth, to good and smooth, using a lower grit of same micro-mesh buff stick one spent so much time making the nib butter smooth.

 

What is smooth enough, that is the question. I like the good and smooth of a Pelikan 200's nib. Others wish it butter smooth like the modern 400/600/800&1000's nib..............I find them a bit too slick for me................besides other things like flex rating.

But those can have baby bottom from over polishing.

So can DIY.

 

The good brown paper bag trick is three-four 15 second sets....good for learning how to rotate the nib constantly..............When dealing with micro-mesh one is dealing with 2-3 second sets, and it helps the rotation is automatic, the strokes don't have to be thought of....just tiny in stead of big.

 

The question comes down to what ink and paper do you use..........how slick do you want your nib?

In most modern nibs of a good quality pen, don't have drag, there is no reason to use the brown paper bag....except to learn. I don't think Parker, Cross, JoWo or Bock nibs need much 'smoothing', unless one is after butter smooth.....if so buy MB or Pelikan (Outside the 200) and save the work.

 

Are Chinese tipped nibs so poor that they have to be smoothed up....to be OK? If so, then practice is cheap enough.

 

With regards to your contemplation, the standard of smoothness is a good question.

 

For me it's

1. if a nib allows me to write fast when needed, not slowing me down, yet maintaining some connection to the paper that prevents it from running away on me.
2. I like a nib to write itself. As I write the letters properly, a good nib can progress along the page naturally for me without running away or dragging.

 

There are more mutable factors such as ink and the weight of a pen, but also less immutable factors such has muscle strength and capacity. I'm not in the business of weightlifting when it comes to writing and I can guarantee that a pen heavier than 22g is reliably likely to fatigue my hand. I prefer Acrylic and Ebonite fountain pens over most metal pens for that reason.

 

I will admit, that I like to use wetter inks to "ink-tune" a pen using those that are more lubricated and wetter(HOD, Kobe's/Sailor, Pilot inks). But if a nib is smooth enough I can use my less smooth inks (Noodler's Walnut, OMB, ACBB, Black EEl).

 

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I personally have found that regular paper does naturally buff a nib. It doesn't necessarily remodel it, which is why I think you need to have a descent nib from the start, but IME, it puts the final touches needed to make a nib a good fit for someone, and overtime does indeed smooth out substantially, IMO.

[Bo Bo Olson]

'Normal' copy paper may sit around the nib more. I've not noticed any betterment from pens that didn't need to have drag removed, or my few new pens.

I know cotton does, 100% or 50% are a comfortable paper, but swallows shading. So I seldom use any.

 

In I like two toned shading....I like 90g or + copy paper, laser only if possible....do have heavier papers for fun. Combo laser and ink jet have had a compromise made.

 

Good and smooth, the level under butter smooth may be what you want. Not a slick nib, no drag....I won't say I'm noticing paper all that much with my nibs that are maintained at good and smooth...but I'm not really looking for it. Of course there will be a different between the slicker Clairefontaine Triomphe 90g and Clarefontaine Veloute` 90g...........It's not as major as I expected. Veloute like it's match Oxford optic 90g is a well behaved economical paper.

I don't know Stateside papers outside of Strathmore, and I have a nice selection of Southworth paper.

(If you run into any Eaton's Corrasable 16 pound, 25% rag, Typewriter paper in an antique shop or on Stateside Ebay...buy it all. Typewriter paper is coated only one one side....it will bleed through big time....but the front of the sheet..... .

It was the erasable typewriter paper, back before IBM correctable typewriters . Fantastic paper for fountain pens....the front side only, but lots of fun. Came in a 80 sheet box....$1.05 back when the dollar was a Dollar. )

 

But then comes the nib flex....nails are nails.

Semi-nails have a tad of tine spread..2X...not much bounce at all. Like a P-75 or a 400/600 Pelikan (which are butter smooth.)

 

You delve into wetter inks than what I use. I'm into dryer higher viscosity shading inks. Pelikan, Herbin, MB, R&K ...some DA inks shade.

Some DA inks seem wet to me....or at least highly saturated....like many Noodler inks are.

Some Noodler inks shade....do you use any of them. Apache Sunset and the one of the top 5 slow drying inks Golden Brown shade well. Golden Brown you have to write the second sheet before you can write on the back.

 

A long time ago, Lamy Turquoise was the base turquoise that all were compared too. It was ok, but a bit blaaaa. Then I looked it up in Ink Reviews and it shaded... but on 90g paper. So I got 90g or better papers, and started chasing shading inks.

I do know some call them wishy-washy or pastel....but I find supersaturated or wet inks mono-tone boring.

 

Then the flex of the nib plays a role to how it plays with the ink on the paper.

Semi-flex can be too wet, needing a better match of ink and paper for shading....with line variation.

It is worth to me to luck out with that.

German semi-flex is because they are stubbed and have easier tine spread, give a great pattern with out having to do anything. I can write as fast with semi-flex as with any nail...or semi-nail.

 

The main problem I see is it's semi-flex not semi-flex...which many seem only to see....the word Flex....and want to make it do something....do Olympic splits because of that word semi-flex....when all it does is add flair....unless one goes to the book and works at it.

There are other nibs that can do that easier....super flex for example.

 

I tend to stay away from nails and semi-nails........have a basic set but that's all. They are a hard ride...to me.

A nice springy regular flex gives a good ride, and is a bit dryer than semi-flex....wetter than semi-nail, and is good for shading inks. I find the M and F to be good. EF is too narrow for shading unless you luck out with an ink and paper. M is a much better nib than many are willing to give it credit.

 

There are Esterbrook regular flex nibs, Wearever, some Sheaffer...depending on era. I don't chase Sheaffer....but know once regular flex was regular issue. Some of the second tier Sheaffers and school pens had that.

Just like nails and semi-nails are regular issue today.

I don't know Japanese pens....so don't know if there is any regular flex, like the Pelikan 200.

 

A Pelikan 200 or a semi-vintage 400 in 14 K are equal in both are good springy regular flex nibs that are equal. Both would be good and smooth. So they may be something for you....even if you use wet inks.

 

Waterman pens would be good for wet inks, in Waterman was once before Noodlers considered a wet ink....some Noodler users consider it a dry ink now.

I don't know which Waterman pens would have regular flex nibs.... Someone in the Waterman sub section would know. F or M would be OK.....thin; thinner than the then Parker, Sheaffer and Pelikan, but not quite Japanese thin....or Aurora thin.

Pelikan is now outside the 200, 1/2 a width wider than semi-vintage or vintage.

[Mongoosey]

 

 

Good and smooth, the level under butter smooth may be what you want. Not a slick nib, no drag....

 

But then comes the nib flex....nails are nails.

Semi-nails have a tad of tine spread..2X...not much bounce at all. Like a P-75 or a 400/600 Pelikan (which are butter smooth.)

 

You delve into wetter inks than what I use. I'm into dryer higher viscosity shading inks. Pelikan, Herbin, MB, R&K ...some DA inks shade.

Some DA inks seem wet to me....or at least highly saturated....like many Noodler inks are.

Some Noodler inks shade....do you use any of them. Apache Sunset and the one of the top 5 slow drying inks Golden Brown shade well. Golden Brown you have to write the second sheet before you can write on the back.

 

 

 

 

I don't know Japanese pens....so don't know if there is any regular flex, like the Pelikan 200.

 

A Pelikan 200 or a semi-vintage 400 in 14 K are equal in both are good springy regular flex nibs that are equal. Both would be good and smooth. So they may be something for you....even if you use wet inks.

 

 

 

I like buttery smooth nibs, but I don't like Glassy smooth. And wetter inks get me there more easily.

 

I do like Black Swan in English Roses (BSER). It's formal with character and it does shade beautifully with the added bonus of some descent water resistance.

 

I don't do flex, at least not right now. I'm boring when it comes to that: Basic Round nibs, though my Pilot Custom 74 on the way does have a nice spring to the gold nib I like.

 

The most flexible nib I plan on trying anytime soon is the Bock Titanium nib on a future Ranga pen and that's not for the purpose of flex writing.

[Bo Bo Olson]

IMO semi-flex is not 'flex'...unless you really work at it....it is flair.

 

I have 27 German vintage Semi-flex pens, and 16 maxi-semi-flex ones.....

If one mashes a regular flex to 3X, semi-flex takes half that pressure, maxi-semi-flex half of that or 1/4th the pressure needed to mash a regular flex to 3 X.

All three are in the 3X tine spread set.

 

Superflex has wider tine spread with less pressure...***

Easy Full Flex, half the pressure needed by a maxi, or 1/8th a regular flex.

Wet Noodle half of that or 1/16th.

Then there is Weak Kneed Wet Noodle that I don't have nor want, with even less pressure. John Sowbada(sp) the English nib grinder invented that term. (With such a pen..I'd have to learn to write!!!!)

 

Then there is dip pens. Some make a wet noodle look uncooked.

 

 

*** The more superflex one has the more variation there is in flex, so the half/half system blurs.

...........

The only company to label their maxi-semi-flex nibs was Osmia, with it's Supra nib (The other with just a number in a smaller diamond is semi-flex.) The rest made them with out marking.......nor telling anyone. my WAG is one in 5 German vintage semi-flex pens are maxi-semi-flex.

I had a 'slew' of semi-flex pens, when a Rupp nib was not quite superflex in ease of tine bend and not more than 3 X tine spread came into my hands. For three days I walked around wow, that certainly is a maxi-semi-flex nib.....before :eureka: . I examined the other 15-20 semi-flex pens and found a total of five maxi-semi-flex nibs. There is more variation in maxi than in semi. After going a bit OCD on that, backed off to @ and it works good enough.

 

One really, really needs a good regular flex nib, to use my system.

Most important is the almost of semi.....in semi-flex is a flair pen, not a (super) flex pen.

[pajaro]

I have used a Parker 51 for 48 years since buying it new in 1970. It has fine to medium nib. Over the years this pen's nib has gone from smooth to sublimely smooth. I haven't, as far as I can recall, done anything to smooth it other than write with it. It has gotten very smooth.

[Bo Bo Olson]

48 years will add a bit of smoothing.

4 months I don't think so.

[LeftyJim]

Fascinating topic folks.

 

I brought my first Parker years ago and found it to be incredibly smooth after many years use but I cannot honestly recall if that is how it was straight away or if it ground smooth over the course of years. I brought a second one to compare and it feels like dragging a spiked ball across the page by comparison. I don't know if I can ever say for sure as quality control on nib production won't ever produce two nibs the same.

 

Anyone ever brought two cheap pens at the same time. Purposefully tested both for smoothness then sidelined one to write with the other for a few years, then retested them both years later; against one's original notes. Seems like a lot to ask doesn't it?

[sandy101]

Yes - however, it isn't just the nib.

 

I've found after two weeks to a month's usage, the ink flow on a new pen will also improve as air and manufacturing gunk is eliminated.

 

The steel Tombow nib I've had for years has gone from being a bit scratchy to a smooth writing experience over years of usage.

 

To get a measurable smoothing effect, the pen has to be used over a period of time.