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Did Black Swan In Australian Roses Ever Really Change?

black swan noodlers change colour variation

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12 replies to this topic

#1 BookCat

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 16:40

A few weeks ago I was watching Nathan Tardiff's video concerning BSiar. I posted a question in the comments (I'm muskndusk on youtube) asking about the colour changes. Recently I received his response.

He said:

 

 
There is no "new" variation.  Never was...  A retailer thought the ink was made in a single batch and was not variable (we then looked into it with many other retailers)...please read the above explanation below the video.  The whole thing about a "new" variation missed the fact that each bottle always had variation built into it....bottle by bottle, from the first bottle made - to the last.   Well before Noodler's existed I kept several blues at the pen show table - all identical inks, but in different bottles....then several different blues in identical bottles.  The public feedback almost made me afraid of even starting an ink company.    One fellow yelled at me when I insisted the ink was the same ink in the different shaped bottles.  In the 1990s there were long internet threads on a certain sapphire ink...with perceptions being that there were reddish/greenish/faded/dark sapphires.  It got very heated.   Variable inks have advantages in fighting the forger - which was one of the big reasons we came into existence.  Previously most fountain pen inks could be copied (variable shading is desirable to hinder a forger) - most could be faded with light and the tools of the forger (bleach, oven cleaners)...and ball pens could be washed with solvents (like acetone) right off a check or contract.  The weakest ink was the norm, now there are many more options/choices available.

 

 

To which I responded:

 

Surely having a variable colour ink makes it easier for a forger because the buyer would never know the difference between the conterfeit and real thing? Also, why did Goulet make a vid about the 'new' purple colour, saying that a pigment was slightly different?  https://www.youtube....h?v=VwBnvKMa1d0
If an ink colour isn't stable, how would the buyer ever know what they were going to receive? It's a bit of a lottery!

 

 

He has also changed the video description to include this information. If anyone wants to check this, the link is:

(Click on the 'watch on youtube' button to read the comments.)

 

I'm not criticising either Nathan or Noodler's, I'm just confused. There does seem to be an appreciable difference in the ink, many people on this forum have commented upon it, so what is really going on? If I order an ink, will I receive the colour I expect?

I'm confused.

:unsure:


Edited by BookCat, 04 December 2014 - 16:43.


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#2 LeonW

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 17:02

Interesting, I will follow this thread for it sure is going to become "heated".

#3 Morphling27

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 18:39

Nathan has at many points, pointed out most of his inks vary from batch to batch or in the case of this explanation and others, bottle to bottle (how that happens would be interesting because I'd think he'd make up a lot of ink for 1 color and fill the bottles - more time to change each bottle a bit or make it literally - bottle by bottle).

 

Variable would make it harder - if you get into anything serious on forensics, and you have the original bottle of ink, they can match it.  If you had someone forge your signature for some contract, and they found out which Noodler's color you used and did it, you could say I have this bottle and it surely doesn't match that ink which my signature was forged with.  Here is a link with a simple explanation:

http://www.forensics...g/docs/how.html



#4 mhosea

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Posted 04 December 2014 - 21:29

It is confusing because I thought Brian got his information from Nathan. I can't wait to hear how this sorts out!

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#5 BookCat

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 01:42

Variable would make it harder - if you get into anything serious on forensics, and you have the original bottle of ink, they can match it.  If you had someone forge your signature for some contract, and they found out which Noodler's color you used and did it, you could say I have this bottle and it surely doesn't match that ink which my signature was forged with.  Here is a link with a simple explanation:

 

 

 

When I said that a variable ink would make it easier for a forger, I meant a forger who wanted to produce cheap batches of Noodler's inks and sell them at full price (on fleabay, for example), rather than a forger of documents or signatures.

If the ink is variable in colour, the purchaser wouldn't know whether they were buying the 'real' thing or a counterfeit copy; this makes it so much easier for the ink forger who doesn't have to produce an exact match to the manufacturer's colour, as there is no 'manufacturer's colour' just a more-or-less brown-red, in the case of BSiaR, for example.

 

I found Nathan's comment so confusing as it contradicts everything else I've heard. Unfortunately, he didn't reply to my second comment. I understand that he's very busy and probably tired of the whole BSiaR issue, but he's left a trail of uncertainty.



#6 StyloBug33

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 02:10

I had one of the first bottles when it came out. When I ordered a second, it was very different. Here are some photos I took at the time. This is from 2012.

abf5712e-71b0-4bcf-9e30-42cbf0b818bc_zps

84d3b09e.jpg

At the time, after a bunch of emails and some posts here, etc. the consensus was that various batches of ink may come out a little differently. It is kind of like when you are buying yarn to make a scarf, and you want to make sure all the yarn you buy is from the same die lot. The same is true if you are going to paint a room; you want to buy all the paint you need at the same time so it will all match. After playing with it for a while, I discovered that if you just added some Noodler's black to the second bottle it would look just like the first. 

 

When you are mixing batches of colors, as Noodler's does, they can vary somewhat. Granted, this is quite a bit of variation, but it never bothered me. And again, this was 2 years ago. I haven't bought any of this color since then.


Edited by StyloBug33, 05 December 2014 - 02:11.

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#7 arcadeflow

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 02:52

This amount of variation is a deal breaker to me. Safety control should be limited to specific inks, those designed for checks/documents, in my opinion. Getting the color we paid for is far more important than safety, how many people would buy this so sign things with? I believe a lot less people that would be disappointed with such a lighter tone variation found in their bottle.



#8 BookCat

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 03:48

arcadeflow, I totally agree. Anyone purchasing an ink for the purpose of signing cheques would buy a bulletproof ink. I also agree that this amount of colour variance goes beyond normal batch difference.



#9 Exlaminis

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 06:46

arcadeflow, I totally agree. Anyone purchasing an ink for the purpose of signing cheques would buy a bulletproof ink. I also agree that this amount of colour variance goes beyond normal batch difference.

I also agree. I've only had one bottle of this ink, but the changes that the Goulets pointed out are rather drastic. You'd hardly imagine them to be the same ink when compared side to side if the original is a dull burgundy red and the second is purple. That's not including the third variation, which is different to its predecessors. It's not excusable to expect customers to buy a product expecting one version and getting something else without warning them. Perhaps all Noodlers inks should come with a disclaimer 'This ink is subject to variation per batch and the colour may not be as expected.' Maybe other ink manufacturers should have their inks tested for colour variation?

 

Whatever the case, I don't think this matter has been handled very well. Nathan's response seems to me typical of a large corporation's attitude to turn a blind eye to a product or say, 'It's all part of the nature of the product.'



#10 Tessy Moon

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 06:50

I have tried 4 different versions of BSiAR within this year.

 

I have bottles of the original #1, the pink/magenta #3, and #4 which is almost identical to the original.

I want a bottle of the purple #2 - I am willing to trade both bottle #1 and #4 for it!

 

 

Here is a quick comparisons of all the BSiAR inks I have tried...

 

 

79a41bcf4458f828b3e026a0df5b1b3f.jpg

 

 

68f033cce0b8c0a4414591e587baea82.jpg

 

291d1de70c2888df6b902a81bca9b193.jpg

 

 

 

This was the #2 Purple BSAR

c2694e89734014c49a8d0e9e0cdc9acd.jpg


Tessy Moon

 

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#11 Davros

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 07:07

Yeah. This doesn't seem like a feature to me. If that amount of variation is built-in, surely it is advisable to tell people more openly about it. For example, is there any outside limits to hue/brightness? Surely we aren't going to buy a bottle one day and get a bright sky blue. Right? I think there's more to this than deliberate tamper-proofing.

#12 mhosea

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Posted 05 December 2014 - 17:33

Regardless of the explanation, this magnitude of variation is unacceptable (to me). I didn't like the prevailing older color (my son has a bottle, and I had a sample years ago). I liked the newer, purple one, and I have a sample of it, but I won't buy a bottle. I won't even buy another sample, especially if this is explained as "normal variation".

I know my id is "mhosea", but you can call me Mike. It's an old Unix thing.


#13 BookCat

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Posted 06 December 2014 - 03:01

I had a sample of the original colour: it was beautiful, so I then bought a bottle and received the pink 'variation' which I wouldn't have bought had I known that it would be this colour. At the time of purchase, the Goulet's had made the vid about the new purple colour, I wouldn't have minded that as I like purple, so when I received the pink version I got in touch with the ebay seller and asked if this was a genuine bottle - I even had the cheek to ask if it was the original colour watered down - and he replied that he'd received it like that from the wholesaler.

 

Until they get their act together, I probably won't be buying another bottle of BSiaR. A decent explanation would suffice.







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