Midnight Blue Ink Being Reformulated Once More?

[mrchan]

I believe you may have the old IG formulation as I have read it changed recently in the last year or two. Of course if you are able to readily use it, you can test it by writing on a sheet of paper and after it dries, put water on it to see if it is waterproof.

waterproof test isn't a great idea because the older one is also fairly permanent. The older ink is darker, and will turn darker once it dries thats it..

[Vlad Soare]

Yes, that's the idea. The old one is waterproof, while the new (non-IG) isn't.

[Boniface]

This OP is from last Sept. ('14), but does anyone know whether this happened? Did the non-ig MB Midnight Blue get reformulated? If so, what is it like? Thanks.

[max dog]

I dont think the Midnight blue got reformulated. It is still the non IG formula as far as I know. Given the MB permanent blue and black are IG inks, dont see MB reverting the midnight blue back to IG. Last Sept when I was at the MB boutique the sales person there told me the Midnight blue was being reformulated, but I think he was a little behind and was referring to the change from the original IG to non IG change earlier in the year.

[Vlad Soare]

Given the MB permanent blue and black are IG inks, dont see MB reverting the midnight blue back to IG.

 

I don't think permanent blue and black are IG-based. I suspect they're both pigmented.

[max dog]

 

I don't think permanent blue and black are IG-based. I suspect they're both pigmented.

There was another thread in the forum about the new permanent MB inks, and someone heard it direct from the source, MB in Germany, that the Permanent Blue and Black are in fact IG based inks.

[meiers]

There was another thread in the forum about the new permanent MB inks, and someone heard it direct from the source, MB in Germany, that the Permanent Blue and Black are in fact IG based inks.

Right. This has been confirmed by Montblanc.

[Vlad Soare]

Some Motblanc inks still come with instructions which state that "due to its ferrogallic content, Burgundy Red requires regular flushing of the pen, otherwise it might clog it" (or something along those lines), when in fact Burgundy Red hasn't got any iron gall (at least not anymore).

So, I wouldn't take anything for granted just because someone from Montblanc said so. Sadly, my impression, based on having read many threads on these forums, is that any technical info coming from Montblanc's customer service must be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

The looks and behaviour of Permanent Blue and Permanent Black don't seem to match those of other iron gall inks. They don't change colors, they smear even when completely dry, they don't react to weak acid solutions, they tend to gradually clog the pen unless used very frequently (at least the blue is known to do that - I don't know about the black). They're also very saturated. The Permanent Black feels wet and kind of oily, far from the renowned dryness of iron gall inks.

Granted, this is not hard proof, but rather circumstantial, but personally I'd rather trust my own observations than a customer service that's been known to give incorrect information every now and then.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Vlad Soare

[cellmatrix]

Some Motblanc inks still come with instructions which state that "due to its ferrogallic content, Burgundy Red requires regular flushing of the pen, otherwise it might clog it" (or something along those lines), when in fact Burgundy Red hasn't got any iron gall (at least not anymore).

So, I wouldn't take anything for granted just because someone from Montblanc said so. Sadly, my impression, based on having read many threads on these forums, is that any technical info coming from Montblanc's customer service must be taken with a pinch of salt.

 

The looks and behaviour of Permanent Blue and Permanent Black don't seem to match those of other iron gall inks. They don't change colors, they smear even when completely dry, they don't react to weak acid solutions, they tend to gradually clog the pen unless used very frequently (at least the blue is known to do that - I don't know about the black). They're also very saturated. The Permanent Black feels wet and kind of oily, far from the renowned dryness of iron gall inks.

Granted, this is not hard proof, but rather circumstantial, but personally I'd rather trust my own observations than a customer service that's been known to give incorrect information every now and then.

I agree with you Vlad, these new montblanc permanent inks behave in every way more like pigment inks than iron gall. Just to add, I have a sensitive nose for iron gall and can smell it in every iron gall I've used. Its especially apparent if you dilute the ink in water - it smells like a freshly scrubbed cast iron skillet. I can smell that smell in ESSRI, all of the four pharmacist inks Ive used, old style MB midnight blue, old style lamy blue black, platinum blue black, and even pelikan 4001 blue black, however I cannot smell this at all in the montblanc permanent inks.

 

Getting back to the original topic, I like the new style montblanc midnight blue. Its not as good as the old stuff, but I like the slightly lighter color - I think it has an old school vintage look. The new formula also still shades, has nice lubrication, has fairly good resistance to feathering and it has at least some water resistance. Its my new favorite ink and I can feel safe keeping it in my parker 51 without worrying about gunking it up.

[Vlad Soare]

Indeed, I forgot about smell. I can smell the iron in ESSRI and Diamine Registrar's, but not in Montblanc Permanent Black.

Another thing is that the Permanent Black leaves a black film on the nib and on the inside of the pen, which does not go away with water. It can only be removed by wiping. This is also characteristic of pigmented inks.

 

I also find the new Midnight Blue quite beautiful and enjoy using it, but on the other hand I haven't had the chance to try out the old one, so my opinion may not be relevant. I may not know what I'm missing.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Vlad Soare

[max dog]

I agree about the Midnight Blue. It's a nice ink in it's own right, but unfortunately overshadowed by it's IG predecessor in the minds of many here. It's well behaved, shades, and has some water resistance. I like it a lot.

 

Regarding the IG in the permanent blue, when it first came out I too thought it was a non IG ink, until people heard from MB that it was an IG ink. I hope it can be confirmed to everyone's satisfaction. Irregardless I find the permanent blue a very nice ink and have not had problems yet with permanent staining or clogging my pen (MB 145 EF) yet. I do notice it leaves a slight bluish tint on my nib occasionally after flush which wipes off easy enough.

Edited May 25, 2015 by max dog

[FredRydr]

To the chemists: Isn't there a simple way to test if there is iron in the ink?

 

Fred

[Vlad Soare]

But does it matter? If it doesn't behave at all like an iron gall ink, then who cares if some particular iron salt is present or not?

People love iron gall inks because of what they do and how they look, not because of their chemical composition. And as far as looks and behaviour are concerned, Montblanc permanent blue and black are as far from iron gall inks as it gets. If we discovered that at chemical level they do indeed contain some ferrogallic salts, would that change anything in the way we feel about them?

Edited May 25, 2015 by Vlad Soare

[cellmatrix]

Regarding the IG in the permanent blue, when it first came out I too thought it was a non IG ink, until people heard from MB that it was an IG ink. I hope it can be confirmed to everyone's satisfaction.

Because they have made up stuff to me before, I tend to regard what Montblanc sales people say with a bit of cynicism. I trust my own experience with a number of iron gall inks more. I have the permanent blue, and there are many aspects of its behavior which are totally different from what a typical iron gall ink would exhibit, as outlined above.

 

On the other hand, there are a couple of properties which are consistent with iron gall, including the ability to hold tight lines and dryness. Most of the pigmented inks I use, such as those from platinum or sailor, are not as dry and do not retain line variation as well as montblanc permanent inks.

 

If it contains iron gall, its a totally new formulation unlike previous iron galls, and if that is the case, then this is really a novel ink. When these inks first came out, they were criticized as was the reformulation of the midnight blue, because everyone loved the old iron gall midnight blue and they were angry to see it go.

 

However as just about everyone on the thread agrees, the new midnight blue is not that bad. And these new permanent inks are somewhat unique too. Overall, I find them interesting.

 

Just one other thing, Max dog, I hope you do not mind if I ask you a question beacause I'm a bit confused: why do you hold hope that the permanent blue will be confirmed as an IG ink? Why does that make a difference to you? Do you have a "dog" in this fight? Please excuse the pun and thanks for clarifying.

Edited May 25, 2015 by cellmatrix

[cellmatrix]

If we discovered that at chemical level they do indeed contain some ferrogallic salts, would that change anything in the way we feel about them?

Vlad as you know, I have questions about the montlbanc permanent being an iron gall. But I would be curious to know whether in fact this is the case or not. If it has iron gall in it, I'd also like to know, how much is in it, why it does not have an iron smell, and what they put in it in addition to the iron gall to make it behave in so many ways not like an iron gall ink. But I think in reality, unless a chemist steps up to the plate and helps us out, that we are just going to go on speculating. Which is what we do best here at FPN, ha ha.

[max dog]

Just one other thing, Max dog, I hope you do not mind if I ask you a question beacause I'm a bit confused: why do you hold hope that the permanent blue will be confirmed as an IG ink? Why does that make a difference to you? Do you have a "dog" in this fight? Please excuse the pun and thanks for clarifying.

I'm just curious what the new permanent ink formulation is, that's all. Whether it is IG or not would be inconsequential to me, as I will continue to use it either way as I like the way this ink behaves.

[cellmatrix]

I'm just curious what the new permanent ink formulation is, that's all. Whether it is IG or not would be inconsequential to me, as I will continue to use it either way as I like the way this ink behaves.

I agree - whatever is in that stuff, it does its job pretty darn good.

[FredRydr]

...we are just going to go on speculating. Which is what we do best here at FPN....

 

Now there's a true statement!

 

Fred