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Opalescent Fountain Pen Ink?


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#41 sotto2

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 15:12

I tried messing with the contrast and brightness in some imaging editing software, but what I ended up with looks a bit gritty. Is that the case in your written example? It might just be an artifact of my image editor.


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#42 disillusion

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 16:13

Did I mention my 40+ year (unsuccessful) quest for this product? I've gone through three steeds and two knaves along the way - slackers!

Anyway, it's all about the size of the shiny particles AND how to get them to permanently bond to the paper. Both of those issues preclude all the products I have found from being fountain pen friendly. :( That's not a problem for dip (i.e. calligraphy) pens, because the ink doesn't go from a reservoir and through a section, so it can't get stuck or dry out in a bunch of impossible to clean out spots and ruin your pen. Dip pen nibs are inexpensive and easily replaced.

If and when somebody somewhere in the world finally figures this problem out, believe me, there will be an ad for the product on the Sony jumbotron in Times Square!

Thank goodness most ink makers warn users if their product should not be used in fountain pens. No acrylic products (non water based) ink can be used in a fountain pen, unless you want to ruin it. It's why a lot of cool ink sets are sold with a dip or quill pen, and the instructions tell you not to use the ink in a fountain pen. Here's what the text was on the web page:

本物の香水のような可愛らしいガラス瓶に入っています。封を切っていないインクは冷蔵保存で何年も品質が保てます。万年筆には使用出来ません。ガラスペンなどの付けペン用としてご使用下さい。

※この商品の沖縄・離島へのお届けは、航空輸送の液体類持ち込み制限により船便での発送となる為、5~10日掛かります。
また、お届け日のご指定はお受けできません。
何卒ご了承下さいませ

Finally, the writing sample shows promise that the ink is very lowly saturated and not packed with particles - hopefully water based, too.

My fingers are crossed!

"万年筆には使用出来ません。" means "You can't use it in a fountain pen." My Japanese isn't very good, but I consulted my sister who is fluent and has lived in Tokyo for 2 years, and this is what she says.

 

Perhaps metallic ink is a very niche product and the market isn't big enough for manufacturers to put a lot of R&D in. About 11 years ago when I was in grade 8/9, these Sakura metallic gel rollerballs were all the craze - everyone had a few and we would exchange notes written in them. They have a very metallic look, but were fussier than normal gel pens like the Pilot G2. Anyway, the craze died out and they became just a normal product. I can still buy them in shops now but never see them in special promotional displays. Perhaps a company like Sakura has the ability to make FP-friendly metallic inks, but if they can make more money with disposable rollerballs (I assume these have a higher profit margin), why would they want to?  :unsure:


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#43 torstar

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 16:17

Noodler's Plains of Abraham sounds like the closest thing I can think of.

 

My bottle of it bombed horribly, I don't think I was alone.

 

(The Canadian BayState Blue...)



#44 Sinistral1

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Posted 04 July 2014 - 17:54

Disillusion: Well, that's that then! The Quest continues!

I still love the bottle, so I'll have to pick a different color to order.

Breathe.  Take one step at a time.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  You're not getting older, you are only moving through time.  Be calm and positive.


#45 Chemyst

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 00:05

Perhaps a company like Sakura has the ability to make FP-friendly metallic inks, but if they can make more money with disposable rollerballs (I assume these have a higher profit margin), why would they want to?  :unsure:

 

Well, if they could position themselves above regular fountain pen inks, but below the price point of 79 Inks, it might be worthwhile.  Really depends on the market demand.


Edited by Chemyst, 05 July 2014 - 04:50.

Chemyst is not and never was a representative of Noodler's Ink. As misrepresentations like this are not allowed on FPN, Chemyst's right to participate on our board was therefore withdrawn, as from March 2016.
 
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#46 amberleadavis

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 00:47

I too have been on this mission and made the mistake as a newbie of asking if sheen was the same thing.  I'm sure I will recover soon, from the beating.  :)  I keep some Sakura pens around just to satisfy this need. Also, Sakura pens have ended up in my fade tests.  The gold and silver shadows don't do so hot, but the metallics are fade proof.


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#47 pen2paper

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 02:00

the avocado on metallic paper looked promising for the effect.

 

pearlizing would be tough. early glass paint included fish scale to achieve this effect. thinking that would not flow well in a pen feed/nib. Also fish scale paint flaked as it aged, and was affected by damp/dry.

 

but, was thinking that a clever person might be able to have ink flow onto a paper that would then auto mix from the paper surface, safely after the nib had finished it's job.

 

there was once a paint pen that had silver, or gold metallic, that had Perfect outlines in red or color of your choice. Flowed from exterior of pen tube. Guessing this was expensive, since plain metallic is all I see now.



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#48 Sinistral1

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 05:22

Gel pens, metallic, glitter, et. al. are great, but I could use most of one up in a single day of writing, and lots of them were nasty smearers because they were slow to dry.

Atsu (cooljapan) just emailed me to say he talked to the people at Kingdom Note about the gold and silver Rubinato inks - not for fountain pens. They told him the metal particles do not stay suspended, and fall to the low points in the pen, which is when all heck breaks loose.

My plan is to try some experimenting with my FP inks and gold gouache mixed together. Gouache is water based, and when you use it for calligraphy, you have to add gum arabic to make the ink bond to the paper. If I dilute the gouache enough, don't add any gum arabic, and mix it with the FP ink, it just might work. Will it be a Frankenink? Time will tell!

Edited by Sinistral1, 05 July 2014 - 05:23.

Breathe.  Take one step at a time.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  You're not getting older, you are only moving through time.  Be calm and positive.


#49 bardiir

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:20

Maybe the inkflow in the feed isn't really the problem if you write with it regularly but the ink being mixed is the main issue in the storage. That could be helped by including a metal agitator into the converter like in a spray can. I've got a little metal bearing ball inside my Lamy converter to prevent airlock of the ink, but it probably would be great for mixing particles back into the ink too as it is always moving in the ink when you move the pen.

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I'm still looking for help/data/supporters/sponsors for my Ink Database - It already contains over 900 Inks but is still low on data about the inks except on the Inks I got myself or where I found nice data sheets. So Im looking for these: InkSamples mailed to me, Permissions to use InkReviews - preferable by people who have a lot of InkReviews online, InkReviews mailed to me so I can scan them, Sponsors that will help me to finance InkSamples, People willing to trade InkSamples (list of available Inks from me is available via PM request - please include available Inks)


#50 amberleadavis

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:35

the avocado on metallic paper looked promising for the effect.

 

pearlizing would be tough. early glass paint included fish scale to achieve this effect. thinking that would not flow well in a pen feed/nib. Also fish scale paint flaked as it aged, and was affected by damp/dry.

 

but, was thinking that a clever person might be able to have ink flow onto a paper that would then auto mix from the paper surface, safely after the nib had finished it's job.

 

there was once a paint pen that had silver, or gold metallic, that had Perfect outlines in red or color of your choice. Flowed from exterior of pen tube. Guessing this was expensive, since plain metallic is all I see now.

 

 

It is still available.  It's called "outliner" paint or something like that.


Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

 

Want to get a special letter / gift from me, then create a Ghostly Avatar  

 

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Ink comparisons:  The Great PPS Comparison  366 Inks in 2016

 

Check out inks sorted by color:  Blue Purple Brown  Red Green Orange Black  Pinks  Yellows  Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal


#51 amberleadavis

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 09:37

OOO, here is the science behind Sakura's outline effect.

 

http://www.sakuraofa...tlineEffect.pdf


Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

 

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#52 sotto2

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 13:12

I wonder if the Kinokuniya Bookstores have that Silver and Gold Shadow stuff? There's one not too far from here.


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#53 Sinistral1

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:34

That diagram of the outline gel shows exactly why these inks can't be used in fountain pens. I think if you make the aluminum particles small enough to safely flow through the fountain pen from the ink reservoir without clogging, they are too small to catch the light and look metallic or pearle.

Makes me wonder even more about the sheen in some fountain pen inks. To me, that shiny aura and/or top layer has to be a separation of components, or dye and a reflective material. Has someone broken the code and is just not talking about it? It seems like none of the ink makers are touting their ink's sheening abilities. What gives?

Breathe.  Take one step at a time.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  You're not getting older, you are only moving through time.  Be calm and positive.


#54 disillusion

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 17:48

Gel pens, metallic, glitter, et. al. are great, but I could use most of one up in a single day of writing, and lots of them were nasty smearers because they were slow to dry.

Atsu (cooljapan) just emailed me to say he talked to the people at Kingdom Note about the gold and silver Rubinato inks - not for fountain pens. They told him the metal particles do not stay suspended, and fall to the low points in the pen, which is when all heck breaks loose.

My plan is to try some experimenting with my FP inks and gold gouache mixed together. Gouache is water based, and when you use it for calligraphy, you have to add gum arabic to make the ink bond to the paper. If I dilute the gouache enough, don't add any gum arabic, and mix it with the FP ink, it just might work. Will it be a Frankenink? Time will tell!

Do you think adding very fine gold/silver dust to ink would work? I am talking about the kind that artists add to glue to make metallic paint. Now if the dust doesn't stick to paper, maybe there is a way of adding glue after the ink is put on paper.


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#55 Sinistral1

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:13

That's why I want to try the gouache. It's a water based artist's pigment that comes in gold, silver, bronze, etc. If I can dilute it enough to flow through the pen AND still shine, mixed with FP ink for color and adhesion, it might work.

Breathe.  Take one step at a time.  Don't sweat the small stuff.  You're not getting older, you are only moving through time.  Be calm and positive.


#56 sotto2

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:33

Eating popcorn and waiting.  :)


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#57 bardiir

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:40

That's why I want to try the gouache. It's a water based artist's pigment that comes in gold, silver, bronze, etc. If I can dilute it enough to flow through the pen AND still shine, mixed with FP ink for color and adhesion, it might work.

You could use whiteness of the whale for a pure golden/silver ink if it works.


My Pens/Nibs (inked/active): Lamy Studio/Vista/Joy (XXF slight-flex custom | 14k EF | EF | F | 14k M | M | B | 14k 1.1 custom | 1.1 | 1.5 | 1.9), TWSBI Diamond 580 (F | Pendleton BadBoy | Zebra G | F.P.R. semi-flex), Pilot Falcon EF, Penkala Vintage 14k semi-flex, Pilot Parallel (2.4 | 3.8 | 6.0)

I'm still looking for help/data/supporters/sponsors for my Ink Database - It already contains over 900 Inks but is still low on data about the inks except on the Inks I got myself or where I found nice data sheets. So Im looking for these: InkSamples mailed to me, Permissions to use InkReviews - preferable by people who have a lot of InkReviews online, InkReviews mailed to me so I can scan them, Sponsors that will help me to finance InkSamples, People willing to trade InkSamples (list of available Inks from me is available via PM request - please include available Inks)


#58 pen2paper

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 18:52

 

 

It is still available.  It's called "outliner" paint or something like that.

yes Outliner.. at jet pens they detail that when filling a large area the color gravitates to the edge. So the separation effect is built into the chemistry, which is what I was trying to suggest in a pen ink. Clogging factor remains, but if two inks with repellent quality could be made to flow through a feed designed for this use, it could come with hygiene details dedicated to that pen. The outliner pens rely on a push in round tip. so could this be adapted to our autofeed italic nibbed pens?



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#59 Chemyst

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:35

yes Outliner.. at jet pens they detail that when filling a large area the color gravitates to the edge. So the separation effect is built into the chemistry, which is what I was trying to suggest in a pen ink. Clogging factor remains, but if two inks with repellent quality could be made to flow through a feed designed for this use, it could come with hygiene details dedicated to that pen. The outliner pens rely on a push in round tip. so could this be adapted to our autofeed italic nibbed pens?

 

Getting a consistent effect is tricky.  Even removing for a minute the metallic fleck portion of the discussion, having an ink using two dyes with different densities which stays well mixed in your pen but separates on paper is tricky.  Witness the difficulty with the Skunk, Panda, Bumblebee and Cherry Blossom inks.

 

It is easier in "gel" matrix, but very challenging in a single liquid ink.


Edited by Chemyst, 05 July 2014 - 19:36.

Chemyst is not and never was a representative of Noodler's Ink. As misrepresentations like this are not allowed on FPN, Chemyst's right to participate on our board was therefore withdrawn, as from March 2016.
 
Warm regards,
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#60 pen2paper

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Posted 05 July 2014 - 19:49

Oh! In my wildest dreams Chemyst would appear in this thread.

I'd forgotten about those inks, since they were not available locally.

 

This whole idea is intriguing. liquids/metallics resorting location, and a way to deliver them... 



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