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Ok, So My "new" P-51 Is Really Clean, But It Still Writes Thin, What Now?


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#21 TimGirdler

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:15

 

Tim, is that your option because ebonite has a better heat memory than Lucite?

 

I wouldn't think it's a cost difference in event of failure as a feed and breather tube is about the same as a common hood.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

That's one reason.  Also, the hard rubber feed is MUCH more forgiving.  And, on top of it all, as you mention, it's not irreversible.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#22 adyf

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:51

 

I find, most often, heating the hard rubber feed and adjusting that can fix many of the flow problems without having to touch the shell.

 

 

Is that usually to get a closer and more comfortable fit with the nib?



#23 TimGirdler

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:53

 

Is that usually to get a closer and more comfortable fit with the nib?

 

Generally, yes.  Over time, hard rubber feeds will tend to sag and the tines will tend to follow.  This is why, according to Richard Binder, modern pen companies' nibs are way too close on their out-of-the-box pens--they've studied vintage pens, but haven't allowed for the wear and tear of time.

 

Anyway, the hard rubber will snap back to its original shape and the marriage of the nib and feed will be much better.  And, as we all know, there isn't much sag possible in a "51" nib.  So, this helps to make a pen a more reliable writer.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#24 adyf

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 16:55

 

Generally, yes.  Over time, hard rubber feeds will tend to sag and the tines will tend to follow.  This is why, according to Richard Binder, modern pen companies' nibs are way too close on their out-of-the-box pens--they've studied vintage pens, but haven't allowed for the wear and tear of time.

 

Anyway, the hard rubber will snap back to its original shape and the marriage of the nib and feed will be much better.  And, as we all know, there isn't much sag possible in a "51" nib.  So, this helps to make a pen a more reliable writer.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim

 

Thanks for the explanation Tim.



#25 OcalaFlGuy

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 18:05

 

Generally, yes.  Over time, hard rubber feeds will tend to sag and the tines will tend to follow.  This is why, according to Richard Binder, modern pen companies' nibs are way too close on their out-of-the-box pens--they've studied vintage pens, but haven't allowed for the wear and tear of time.

 

Anyway, the hard rubber will snap back to its original shape and the marriage of the nib and feed will be much better.  And, as we all know, there isn't much sag possible in a "51" nib.  So, this helps to make a pen a more reliable writer.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim

 

And now, for the $64 question.

 

Do you heat the feed Out of the collector or can it be done with the pen assembled?

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl



#26 white_lotus

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 19:54

I've been reading this thread with interest, learning what I can. But I admit I don't understand this idea of the feed "sagging" and how that would cause the 51's nib to press more tightly against the hood (above it) leading to the reduced flow. This is what I'm understanding the experts are discussing here. I presume I'm completely misunderstanding something.

 

Now maybe if the feed "sags" and presses against the hood (below) that somehow restricts the flow in the feed which restricts the flow to the nib.

 

Hopefully someone can explain this so I understand better. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.



#27 TimGirdler

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 20:04

 

And now, for the $64 question.

 

Do you heat the feed Out of the collector or can it be done with the pen assembled?

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

 

Always out of the pen.  Always disassembled.

 

There are too many other components that will be affected if it's done with the feed in the pen.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#28 TimGirdler

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 20:12

I've been reading this thread with interest, learning what I can. But I admit I don't understand this idea of the feed "sagging" and how that would cause the 51's nib to press more tightly against the hood (above it) leading to the reduced flow. This is what I'm understanding the experts are discussing here. I presume I'm completely misunderstanding something.

 

Now maybe if the feed "sags" and presses against the hood (below) that somehow restricts the flow in the feed which restricts the flow to the nib.

 

Hopefully someone can explain this so I understand better. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

Sorry about misunderstanding and I fear I have participated in it...

 

In vintages pens with hard rubber feeds (NOT "51"s) the feed tends to sag and the nib tends to follow.  This happens over a fairly long period of time, however.  Modern pen makers look at the vintage pens, trying to copy them.  Not realizing the "sag factor" of the feed, they make nibs with the tines too close together.  Why?  When a feed sags and the nib follows, the tines get closer together at the tip.  So, modern pen makers think the tines have to be jammed together...

 

Now, fast forward to the "51".  Feeds can sag (the large majority of them are hard rubber).  The nib on a "51", though, usually won't.  On the "51" the nib isn't held in place by the feed, per se.  The nib is held in the collector (and so, for that matter, is the feed).  The tubular design of the "51" nib means that it will usually not sag with the feed, because the tubular design is typically stronger and more support is given to the tines by the very design of the nib.

 

But, in "51" feeds, there are some variations.  The early feeds do not have slits in them.  So, it is more important for the non-slitted feeds to be firmly against the nib.  The slitted nibs are, I think, a bit more forgiving.  So, in this case the feeds sag and withdraw from the nibs.  It's important to have the feeds re-engage with the nibs to have the flow work properly.

 

I doubt that a sagging feed will push the nib into the shell and I'm sorry that my comments (and others) gave that impression.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim


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#29 ac12

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 23:41

On one of my 51s, I changed from dry Cross/Pelikan ink to wet Waterman ink.

The increased ink flow of the Waterman ink got the ink line to look better.


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#30 Mike 59

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 00:43

The feed on my 1958 (ish) '51' has 'sagged' away from the underside of the nib, needs a tweak there I'm sure, but the left tine of the nib was pressing against the shell so had no movement, the right hand tine could move slightly. 

 So two separate problems.   Without having any other detailed information about this nib and feed design, I would have thought that it is important to have a gap of (say) 10 thou all around the nib and feed where it leaves the hood/shell.   The nib design is tubular, and rigiid by nature, but a few thou of spring in the tines must be part of the design, and that no part of the nib touches the hood, which could affect the tine gap when the pen is in use.  (Which is mainly the problem I have been trying to sort out.)



#31 Vintagepens

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 03:45

I'm afraid there's an awful lot that I disagree with in this thread.

 

Although I do not slavishly follow original repair manuals, in this instance Parker's original procedures regarding fitting the shell to the nib using heat are still the standard, and much preferable to removal of material from inside the shell. This fitting can involve either tightening the fit between the shell and the nib, or adding additional clearance so that the shell does not pinch the nib's slit closed. This is as much a part of setting up a Parker 51 as is heat-setting a hard rubber feed on a conventional pen.

 

When one comes across a 51 with a feed that stands proud from the nib, it is not because of the effects of gravity over a period of decades (which is nonsensical to begin with, given that pens are rotated every which way, not consistently stored horizontally and feed-down), but more probably because the feed ended up heated to the point of softness when the shell was being fitted to the nib, and when pressure was applied from above to the shell and nib, the nib temporarily deflected downwards, carrying the feed with it. Once the pressure was released, the nib then sprang back, but if the feed had cooled by then, it would have taken a set.



#32 pajaro

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:22

And of course, this Would be needed by a perfectly fine Looking 51 Aero that *I* pointed someone to. Ack.

 

I usually take my Aeros apart and sonicate everything but the filler and cap, hit the collector and feed with a toothbrush and Roto-root out the breather tube including the side vent. I'll usually just floss the tines, I don't recall opening one up yet. Still, I've had to send a couple to Ernesto after that when they still weren't writing correctly.

 

Would those of you who have fixed this before a few times try and add some needed 411 here Please?

 

What would you say are the mostly like flow issues with an Aero 51 In Order of eaches likelihood of being the Main problem?

 

Beside each one, would you please place it's approximate % of being the main problem itself?

 

Of course, a nice long written out for us Procedure would be Greatly Appreciated. ;)

 

Failing that, can we at least have the prioritized list of what to check so we can search out the info ourselves?

 

Much thanks in advance.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl-see we all Really Are ignorant.  Just in different subjects.  

 

If someone new to the 51 has this issue, IMHO it's unrealistic to expect the average new user to do much to the 51.  Better that he should send the pen to someone for tuning, on the first one.  You don't want to mess up your first 51.  We don't want them to mess up their first 51 either.  Some people are end users.  Some people are more adventurous and some are experienced enough to take a pen apart.  Of course, if we need parts pens, by all means work them up to take the pens apart.


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#33 Mike 59

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:18

I know I have bought a few pens where the previous owner had 'had a go' at improving them, but my 'best buys' were where the pen had been abandoned because of what was really a simple fault.

 Repairing and tuning the '51' is probably more complicated than most, and always interesting to read what others know, and have done. 



#34 Ron Z

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 10:44

I haven't had a chance to follow this thread the last couple of days. I rather agree with David.

When faced with flow issues, you have to take the pen apart. I have a mental check list that I go through with every 51 that I service.
Start by making sure that everything is clean, and that there is no mineral residue or other white stuff on the nib or feed. A brass wire wheel at low speed, or a scratch pad, can be used to clean off hardened crud if cleaning in a surfactant doesn't get it off.  Koh-I-Noor is unlikely to do the job.

Follow by setting the feed.  Rather than causing dry flow, I've found that a feed that's a bit loose can cause other problems - as in ink in the cap for no apparent reason.  Setting the feed snug against the nib usually cures that.   I heat them out of the pen and adjust for a slight upturn in the last 3/8" or so. If it's too tight you can warm it over your heat gun so that it follows the contour of the nib. A 51 feed, especially one that's thin at the end, has enough flex that this is not usually an issue. Note that you have to have the feed hot enough that it turns soft enough to do this. Don't force it. When warm enough it will be quite flexible. Then set the tine spacing using shim stock as a feeler gauge. A 0.001" piece should be a free fit, 0.002" a slightly tighter fit. Then assemble the pen. 

 

I also agree with David that heating the end of the shell is the accepted method of adjusting the hood.  This is something that I would rather show someone how to do rather than try to explain it as it's easy go get wrong.


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#35 adyf

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 12:50

I also agree with David that heating the end of the shell is the accepted method of adjusting the hood.  This is something that I would rather show someone how to do rather than try to explain it as it's easy go get wrong.

Yes, I have taken the end of a hood or two by not getting the hood warm and pliable enough.

Edited by adyf, 11 June 2014 - 12:51.


#36 Vintagepens

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 14:37

I should also address the mistaken notion of "feed sag" here.

 

Hard rubber, unless heated to softness, is a material of extraordinary dimensional stability.

Think about it: if hard rubber feeds really did sag over time, so would every other hard rubber pen part.

Caps and barrels would flatten, press-fit sections would fall out, imprints and chasing would disappear.

Hard rubber feeds do not sag.






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