Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[Lazard 20]

I do find it troubling. I am more than just a bit fed up with people who put together random bits of misinformation and present it as gospel. He has watermarked a photo (in my opinion, look at the box in the background, it is the same one) that is not his, to 'support' a position that is simply not true, only to make himself look the 'expert'. Lazard is in South America (I believe). The modern rods were shipped to me from Tennessee.

Shellac cause oranging or ambering especially in fpens pearlescent colors whatever that says an "expert" or a baby.

 

It is a very common resource of only 5 or 6 FPN users: If you can not argue against the hypothesis presented argues against the presenter ("ad hominem" fallacy) and, last but not least, you also invent the argument you use against him.

 

You have understood nothing or a little about this bars and what little you understood you have taken partially and out of context. Let see:

 

A. These images were presented together, not one isolated. Allow me to present them as they was in website origin for other readers without prior prejudices can see the context.

 

B. Clearly in NO case I expressed that the bars were mine, where they were or that the bars were for sale.

 

And what is more important:

 

C. This photo bars were selected since the bars of TWO photos were not in contact with shellac nor sac. This bars (bars of both photos no only one) were put into one Spanish topic JUST AS EXAMPLE of what IS NOT ambering nor darkening by shellac nor by sac (bars darkening by ray of light or the mere passage of time in contrast with ambering or "oranging" of fpens by shellac).

 

But you do not despair, insists, you may have better luck in the future.

 

 

 

Gladly I have cut this last photo on the web site origin and I thank you have giving me standing to bring here the first photo with bars with Celluloid Co. label of one recognized origin as SheaferS Museum.

 

Footnote: There are many fpens "Lazard´s" photos in the Internet. I mark clearly, not only watermark, all my photos for readers who want contact with me for additional info or feedback when they see this photos on another web site because this photos "travel" from one website to another website -like now, for example, that someone brought them here from other Spanish web site- but no only, I too mark my photos for people like you may be able to theorize a little about "Lazard The Villain". Be good.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[FarmBoy]

You Sheaffer guys have the beginnings of a wonderful rock garden.

[kirchh]

Shellac cause oranging or ambering especially in fpens pearlescent colors whatever that says an "expert" or a baby.

 

It is a very common resource of only 5 or 6 FPN users: If you can not argue against the hypothesis presented ...

 

Your hypothesis is that evaporating alcohol carries particles of shellac throughout a celluloid fountain pen. Nearly all the alcohol evaporates within hours of the application of the shellac. But pens do not turn amber within hours of the application of shellac. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

For an entire barrel and much of the cap of a pen to be amber because of the presence, to a great depth, of particles of shellac that have migrated via evaporating alcohol, the amount of shellac would have to spontaneously increase by an order of magnitude from the amount applied. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

If evaporating alcohol carried off the shellac from the site of application, there would be almost complete depletion of the shellac at the site of application. But there isn't. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

Celluloid items that do not have shellac on them turn amber and, in extreme cases, crystallize, as the celluloid decomposes:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

--Daniel

[ANM]

I feel that for someone to take an image from the internet when that person is not the owner of the image and put their name on it in another forum is being deceptively misleading. It is dishonest whether the image is used for illustration of a valid point or not. It is a type of plagiarism, in my opinion. To use a 'stolen' image to illustrate an invalid point even though it may be a misunderstanding is very troubling. Edited to add: not to mention that it is also indicative of careless research.

Edited September 11, 2014 by ANM

[Lazard 20]

Shellac can be in the sac-nozzle and/or section-barrel and/or thread/barrel and/or inner cap. When there are shellac the adjacent areas acquire ambering increase and with more shellac, more ambering.

 

 

DESPITE ATTEMPTS BY DANIEL AND OTHERS TAKE THE MATTER BY THE MARGINS WE ARE REACHING "THE QUESTION":

"IS BETTER PLACE SHELLAC FOR TO INSTALL A SAC OR BETTER NOT PUT SHELLAC?"

THIS IS THE QUESTION

 

Shellac crystallized and when you need unscrew and rotate the section these crystals can damage the threads.

"IS BETTER PLACE SHELLAC FOR TO ADJUST A THREAD OR BETTER NOT PUT SHELLAC?"

Do you prefer put shellac in your fountain thread or prefer another solution as B for example?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kernando]

Yes, is better place shellac for to install a sac.

 

For to adjust a thread? Who puts anything on threads? That's what threads are for. And that's something Parker did. And people used rosin if they used anything. And the barrels turned colors anyway, because they had latex sacs.

[kirchh]

Shellac can be in the sac-nozzle and/or section-barrel and/or thread/barrel and/or inner cap. When there are shellac the adjacent areas acquire ambering increase and with more shellac, more ambering.

 

False, and no evidence has been presented to support this claim.

 

Tell us about the ambering in these buttons:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

--Daniel

[79spitfire]

1. I never suggested you were selling the pen rods

2. Posting images that are not yours, as if they were. IS plagiarism, at least, theft at worst.

3. I WILL NOT back down from my opinion that you spend time presenting poorly researched, possibly false information as truth.

4. Are you suggesting that celluloid that has never been in contact with shellac does not amber?

5. Will you please explain how the ambering happened in the buttons pictured above

 

 

In my opinion Teflon tape is a poor choice for sealing threads on a Vacumatic pen, it is also completely off subject.....

[FarmBoy]

Lazard do you prefer granite, limestone, or marble?

 

Please send me a rod of the undarkened celluloid. I will conduct vapor bath experiments with and without shellac followed by spectral analysis as a function of depth.

[kernando]

Oh, the the captions are usually so ridiculous that I stopped paying much attention to the details in the pictures, so I missed that that was about Vacumatics. I haven't taken one apart yet, but Teflon tape seems like a terrible thing to use. Those don't really amber anyway. I assumed we were still talking about sac pens, and button fillers don't need sealing.

[RMN]

 

False, and no evidence has been presented to support this claim.

 

Tell us about the ambering in these buttons:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

--Daniel

Perhaps they were worn by a pen-technician when he was putting shellac on a pen?

 

D.ick

[Lazard 20]

Perhaps they were worn by a pen-technician when he was putting shellac on a pen?

 

D.ick

 

Maybe he put... a SAC on a pen ? - -.

 

Was not the sac the ambering cause? I like the nice photoevidence provided by Daniel in that yellowing celluloid IS NOT BY SAC CAUSE, so we add it to our collection -that we will increase- of

 

AMBERING NOT BY SAC.

 

The ambering "sac majority opinion" has passed away, R.I.P.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

Try to focus.

 

Did shellac cause this ambering?

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

--Daniel

[79spitfire]

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u572/SpamMe06/headbang_zps2ac29901.gif

Edited September 13, 2014 by 79spitfire

[JonSzanto]

Lazard is the only person who believes Lazard. If anyone else does, I'd ask them to post as to what convinced them. It certainly couldn't be by virtue of scientific evidence.

 

But I don't believe there is anyone else.

[robert1962]

To not believe would be sac rilegious.

 

Bob

[georges zaslavsky]

Lazard can't be believed

[kirchh]

Are not you going to present a single argument about "Shellac is the proven way to adhere a sac to the nipple"?

I will present one on contrary by association; precisely garbage is where Parker sent the shellac in the 30s ... until someone have recovered it from there.

 

Parker already realized in the second half of the 30s the harms of shellac and alcohol, thereafter we will find not shellac but a white cement.

 

Anyway Parker already before 1940 recommended to keep away alcohol from his Permanite. Why you do not listen Parker´s experience?

 

Incorrect. Parker continued to instruct repairpeople to affix sacs to the nipples in Permanite pens up through the 1950s. And, as far as I can determine, they never stopped making that recommendation.

 

Therefore, your argument fails.

 

--Daniel

[pen2paper]

 

Your hypothesis is that evaporating alcohol carries particles of shellac throughout a celluloid fountain pen. Nearly all the alcohol evaporates within hours of the application of the shellac. But pens do not turn amber within hours of the application of shellac. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

For an entire barrel and much of the cap of a pen to be amber because of the presence, to a great depth, of particles of shellac that have migrated via evaporating alcohol, the amount of shellac would have to spontaneously increase by an order of magnitude from the amount applied. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

If evaporating alcohol carried off the shellac from the site of application, there would be almost complete depletion of the shellac at the site of application. But there isn't. Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

Celluloid items that do not have shellac on them turn amber and, in extreme cases, crystallize, as the celluloid decomposes:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Celluloid_ambering_with_no_shellac.jpg

 

Therefore, your hypothesis fails.

 

--Daniel

oh, I believe I see familiar plastics degradation, on non-pen objects. No shellac involved.

 

Likely an unfortunate mix of less stable celluloid, in near contact with other plastics, metal, (edit to include: likely corroded metal backed pastes on the right side), and confined in an airtight environment, also possibly subject to past heat, humidity > all, or any of which began the irreversible problems. In a library of the overall history of such objects, I also included a few examples showing the process of plastics degradation issues, with sign posing: "Why do these pieces appeared crazed, cracking, color shifting? ", An unexpected, but pointed result by the end of the month was that each of the pieces had left a new sign of deterioration - a ring of goo left on the glass shelf.

Curiously enough, if there had been shellac applied, this May have held the pieces slightly intact for a brief period longer, maybe/maybe not.

 

ok stepping back out so the pen world experts* are back in play.

 

* those I would trust in pen materials, pen history, inquiry

 

Lazard, my reply has nothing to do with argument, or backing up others in argument. I have no sides here. I'm simply reporting on what is a very ordinary condition I've personally observed for 20+ years. If you check prices of early 100+ year old celluloid pieces, as well as costly and desirable modern, but fragile Weeber pieces, you will also see that when stored in optimum conditions, many of these pieces remain sound, fully appreciated, for many years to come. Avoiding unnecessary destruction is exactly why I do what I do out in the non-pen object world.

Edited September 22, 2014 by pen2paper