Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[Lazard 20]

The errors are compounded.

 

Lazard, there is also one, inescapable fact: this is not your fault, and it would be far, far worse if I tried to communicate in your native tongue, but your English is so full of grammatical and contextual errors that it is, more often than not, extremely difficult to understand just what it is you are trying to say. If, by any change at all, you have a friend who is fluent in English, maybe they could look over your posts before you send them.

For references (please read this with a smile on your face).

 

What part of: "put a little shellac ..." you do not understand?

 

What part of fpens in the photos where there are more ambering you do not understand?

 

What part of "Tell me what you brag and I'll tell you that you lack" You do not understand.

 

What encourages you to participate afther my posts, to provide precisely nothing, if you do not understand me?

 

I do not remember that you have requested clarification to any of my sentences in this or another thread. My English is clearly very low level so it is possible that other people do not understand me, as well both, you and I, understand each other perfectly. There is a language that is universal.

 

With kindest regards,

 

Ramón

Edited August 19, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

One simple question:

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals state that there is shellac on the threads of the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

[kirchh]

note that taper is very exposed, directly in contact if there are shellac on the threads barrel/taper and/or fixing ring as "modus operandi" of those years as they tell us through the Service Manuals ...

 

Lazard -

 

One simple question:

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals state that there is shellac on the threads of the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

--Daniel

[RMN]

Oh dear. Let me rephrase the question.

 

Lazard, if there would be shellac on the threads indicated by the arrows in your first post, how could one then unscrew the "end-cap" to fill the pen?

 

 

D.ick

[Roger W.]

I saw nothing in the illustrated instructions that says shellac is anywhere near the taper. Lazard, you fail to convince in this instance.

 

Roger W.

[JonSzanto]

What encourages you to participate afther my posts, to provide precisely nothing, if you do not understand me?

 

I do not remember that you have requested clarification to any of my sentences in this or another thread. My English is clearly very low level so it is possible that other people do not understand me, as well both, you and I, understand each other perfectly. There is a language that is universal.

 

Ramon,

 

Well, I participate in a lot of threads, and it is usually to facilitate the sharing of information. I provide things when it is clear what I can provide, even if that is perspective.

 

For instance, you above use the word "afther", which is clearly a typo, but I can't even figure out what word it is supposed to be. Therefore, I have to guess at your meaning, rather than simply read it. You want to later fall back on some "language that is universal", but what we are talking about in these threads, where you make unsubstantiated claims, are matters of facts and technology, not feelings and emotions.

 

Earlier, you wrote:

 

 

 

Parker recommended in those years put shellac not only were sac contact with section. Also recommended it in contact zones ("parts with touches", just more ambering parts). How much is "a little"? Dealers and store repairman, too often, understood this question without greed.

 

The phrase "parts with touches" makes no sense, until one goes and tries to see that in the images you captured, there is the phrase "part of section which touches", with even *that* phrase (not your words, I realize) is grammatically incorrect. Lastly, "understood this question without greed" makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

So: I refuse to guess at what person is trying to say, and I am very conciliatory when attempting to correct a non-English speaker on their usage of the language - I don't speak anything other than English, and I won't criticize efforts - which is why I suggested maybe a proofreader. Otherwise, we are left to try to figure out sentences and phrases that go from being confusing to downright not making sense. Nothing is ever settled in that way.

 

You simply cannot offer anecdotal documentation and confusing phrases and expect it to equal actual rigorous proof.

[Lazard 20]

I saw nothing in the illustrated instructions that says shellac is anywhere near the taper. Lazard, you fail to convince in this instance.

 

Roger W.

We observe general recommendations of fountain pen industry of this years put shellac on the contact surfaces. We observe increased ambering in these contact areas.

 

We observe many item where fountain pen industry has put shellac on the contact surface of metallic elements with hard rubber or celluloid. So you can observe shellac on a lever pin or, in another case f.e. in order to fix a metal coating over hard rubber or celluloid (despite you saw nothing in the illustrated instructions that says shellac is there).

 

So is not rare that Parker or repairman store, in order to fixing the trim ring taper more firmly to celluloid, they put a little shellac between the metal ring and taper.

 

 

Footnote. The sac, majority report, although important too could to be less relevant because it takes years, perhaps decades, to break down and we have constancy of ambering before the '30s.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

Oh dear. Let me rephrase the question.

 

Lazard, if there would be shellac on the threads indicated by the arrows in your first post, how could one then unscrew the "end-cap" to fill the pen?

 

D.ick

Oh Dear! Another simple question for you, how could one then to separate the section and barrel in order to change sac if they put shellac in section/barrel?

 

I would recommend to you more literalness to images.

 

In any case, in the thread... by proximity to metal ring taper. The pigmentation reaches areas that are not in direct contact with the shellac as you can see in photo (B y C).

 

Let us continue with the game of questions:

 

Ambering is color amber and shellac is color amber. Do you see any relationship?

 

Now, a photo about shellac pigmentation capability if my English is not understood.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Shellac and rubber would have little effect on the taper as they are generally not exposed.

Roger W.

 

 

You're wrong; please, note that taper is very exposed, directly in contact if there are shellac on the threads barrel/taper and/or fixing ring as "modus operandi" of those years as they tell us through the Service Manuals and ratified in our daily observation.

Lazard

 

Lazard -

 

One simple question:

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals instruct repairmen to apply shellac on the threads that secure the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

Such a simple question. Why can't you answer it?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Such a simple question. Why can't you answer it?

Daniel Kirchheimer

 

You're funny!Underlining and highlighting what is convenient for you but ignoring or dwarfed what does not fit your opinion formed. It is a gross manipulation of my paragraph.

 

Not that I can not answer, is that there are nothing to answer for your very free highlighting. As well there are nothing to answer I will point:

 

"If there are shellac" is a conditional clause that you interestingly have "dwarfed"

 

About "modus operandi" -please note quotation marks-, you can find shellac in threads (Posted 10 May 2014 - 21:28)

 

As I said, you do not look at the words, look under your fountain pens as photo:

 

 

 

 

 

... and you'll find shellac particles:

 

 

Edited August 20, 2014 by Lazard 20

[JonSzanto]

1. Now you are mixing up Parker manuals and Sheaffer pens.

2. Speaking of the latter, I have a couple of Sheaffer jadite pens that have discoloration at the section end of the barrel as well as at the opposite, closed end. There is, obviously, no shellac at the closed end of the barrel, so why would both places discolor the same amount if shellac is the cause?

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

You are being evasive. People are evasive when they are afraid to give a direct, truthful answer.

 

Why are you evading this simple, direct question?

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals instruct repairmen to apply shellac on the threads that secure the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

Yes or no?

 

Will you answer or evade?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

1. Now you are mixing up Parker manuals and Sheaffer pens.

2. Speaking of the latter, I have a couple of Sheaffer jadite pens that have discoloration at the section end of the barrel as well as at the opposite, closed end. There is, obviously, no shellac at the closed end of the barrel, so why would both places discolor the same amount if shellac is the cause?

1. I'm talking about the customs of an era and these were very common for these two industry giants and fountain pen repairmen.

 

2. I think we should not talk about "the obvious" if we have not seen with our eyes but yes, is very common too at the bottom of the Jadite barrel. What would be your explanation for this accentuation of ambering precisely where the rubber sac no reach? At the bottom of the Sheaffer´S barrel there are a circular base holding the rod lever so my answer to you should be; buy a barrel Jadite SheafferS for parts, pulls the pin (or ring) lever, lever and rod lever, cut longitudinally with a saw, watch and observed inside the barrel and upload your own opinion to this topic.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

 

 

Daniel, I have already answered about the possibility that the taper ring was fixed with shellac. In this particular issue I´m less evasive to reply than you blindness to the shellac effects.

[Vintagepens]

I see ambering due to the connector and that the material is thinner there. Shellac and rubber would have little effect on the taper as they are generally not exposed. Any shellac would be on the far end of the pen so your shellac theory is falling apart?

 

Roger W.

 

The darkening of the taper near the joint with the barrel is surely caused by the higher concentration of gaseous sac deterioration byproducts there. Button-fillers are notoriously more prone to discoloration than lever-fillers, thanks to their barrels being more tightly sealed. With a button-filling desk pen, the sulfur compounds released by sac decay will pass through the button opening and into the recess at the base of the taper -- precisely where the discoloration is visible in the photos above.

 

In some cases, barrel threads end up darkened by long exposure to ink. More often, the area of greatest darkening is, in fact, *below* the area where section and barrel are in contact, which strongly suggests that the cause of this darkening is exposure to the gaseous sac deterioration byproducts noted above -- and not contact with either shellac nor the hard rubber of the section.

 

There are other possible causes for the greater degree of darkening in the barrel next to the section, including: more stress on the sac in this location and thus higher likelihood of failure; repeated heating by repairmen during service; puddling of ink from sac rupture.

[JonSzanto]

1. I'm talking about the customs of an era and these were very common for these two industry giants and fountain pen repairmen.

 

2. I think we should not talk about "the obvious" if we have not seen with our eyes but yes, is very common too at the bottom of the Jadite barrel. What would be your explanation for this accentuation of ambering precisely where the rubber sac no reach? At the bottom of the Sheaffer´S barrel there are a circular base holding the rod lever so my answer to you should be; buy a barrel Jadite SheafferS for parts, pulls the pin (or ring) lever, lever and rod lever, cut longitudinally with a saw, watch and observed inside the barrel and upload your own opinion to this topic.

 

In one breath you make speculations on how repair people from one company might be doing something identical to another based on no specific knowledge of this, and yet you don't want to listen when someone brings up such a common topic as a jadite (or other celluloid color, black and cream being a particularly good example) discoloring in multiple areas of the pen. YOU are the one claiming that the discoloration is from shellac, so it is up to YOU to explain how an identical discoloration can occur in an area that is not being touched by shellac.

 

I'm done. Time to gather things together to hit the road for a pen show tomorrow. Being with real pen people in real time in the real world will make this all go away!

[kirchh]

Daniel, I have already answered about the possibility that the taper ring was fixed with shellac. In this particular issue I´m less evasive to reply than you blindness to the shellac effects.

 

You're being very evasive.

 

I didn't ask you about the taper ring.

 

I asked you about the threads that attach the taper to the barrel. The threads.

 

I think you didn't read my question with care, so I'll repeat it yet again so you can read it again and then answer it; read it very carefully so you don't make a mistake again and answer a question that nobody asked:

 

Are you claiming that Parker service manuals instruct repairmen to apply shellac on the threads that secure the taper of a button-filling desk pen such as that shown here?

 

A simple question, that you can answer "yes" or "no."

 

Or you can evade it yet again. You know what it means when someone is evasive, right?

 

--Daniel

 

[Lazard 20]

"...so it is up to YOU to explain how an identical discoloration can occur in an area that is not being touched by shellac."

 

I would have preferred that it was discovered by yourself but well, here it is. They possibly, maybe, put shellac on the crown of the plate lever to be fixed and not be moved. In any case there, at the bottom of the barrel, usually there are not remains of the sac so the majority opinion about only inks or rubber sacs is not justified. In addition the early onset of ambering is not consistent with the time required to degrade a sac. Regards. Enjoy in your road and pen show!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Vintagepens]

In any case there, at the bottom of the barrel, usually there are not remains of the sac so the majority opinion about only inks or rubber sacs is not justified. In addition the early onset of ambering is not consistent with the time required to degrade a sac.

 

As I noted above, the primary cause of celluloid darkening is exposure to *gaseous* sac deterioration byproducts. Direct contact with a deteriorating sac is not required. Your cutaway view nicely illustrates how this takes place.

 

The notion that this darkening is due to shellac makes no sense. Why would pen makers coat the entire inside of both caps and barrels with shellac?

 

The notion that shellac causes darkening of celluloid within just a few years is also thoroughly mistaken. I still own many celluloid pens whose sections I sealed with shellac 15 to 20 years ago, and not one shows the slightest sign of darkening as a result.