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Do Lamy, Kaweco Feel The Chinese Breathing In Their Necks?

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#21 EdT

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 18:11

Right now I am advising Chinese pen companies to come out with a flex pen comparable to the Noodler's Ahab, one of the main problems is that Chinese pen companies and retailers do not know what western fountain pen users want !



#22 EdT

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 18:16

Why assume anything else?? Do you have any evidence that Kaweco's are assembled in China? I checked the paperwork with the pen and it states that the pens are assembled in Nuremburg with the nibs coming from Bock in Heidelberg. The web site also shows this with the only notable exception that the precision pencil mechanisms are supplied by Japan.  

 

 

If the nib is made in Germany and is the most expensive part of the pen,  they may use the "Made in Germany" moniker even if the rest of the pen was made elsewhere !
We used to import products from China,  but the box and printing was produced locally which was the most expensive component and we were able to use the Made in USA and Made in Canada moniker !



#23 KBeezie

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:41

EU laws with regards to when a company can claim made in "x" are a bit looser than US standards. So I would not assume it was made in Germany just because of that. But I'm not saying it is not either.

could have been "assembled" in Germany. 



#24 WilsonCQB1911

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:53

could have been "assembled" in Germany. 

 

Right.  I think that may be enough to be able to stamp Germany on something.  At least according to EU laws.

 

Once again, not saying that Kaweco is made anywhere else but Germany.  Just trying to keep an open mind and have a dialogue.  My personal belief/opinion is that they have to be made outside of Germany in order to keep their prices as low as they are.  



#25 KBeezie

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:34

 

Right.  I think that may be enough to be able to stamp Germany on something.  At least according to EU laws.

 

Once again, not saying that Kaweco is made anywhere else but Germany.  Just trying to keep an open mind and have a dialogue.  My personal belief/opinion is that they have to be made outside of Germany in order to keep their prices as low as they are.  

 

Course assembled or made or otherwise, I assume that regardless people come to expect a certain quality of the product, even if they originally source them from say China, Taiwan, Malaysia, etc. 

 

Some of the Chinese sellers *can* be accommodating, but it's more or less a gamble in the minds of most people. 



#26 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:58



EU laws with regards to when a company can claim made in "x" are a bit looser than US standards. So I would not assume it was made in Germany just because of that. But I'm not saying it is not either.

  

Why assume anything else?? Do you have any evidence that Kaweco's are assembled in China? I checked the paperwork with the pen and it states that the pens are assembled in Nuremburg with the nibs coming from Bock in Heidelberg. The web site also shows this with the only notable exception that the precision pencil mechanisms are supplied by Japan.

  

could have been "assembled" in Germany.

  

Right.  I think that may be enough to be able to stamp Germany on something.  At least according to EU laws.
 
Once again, not saying that Kaweco is made anywhere else but Germany.  Just trying to keep an open mind and have a dialogue.  My personal belief/opinion is that they have to be made outside of Germany in order to keep their prices as low as they are.


What product doesn't have/did not have foreign components today an in the past.

BMWs are also produced in the USA but still remains a high quality German car.

A lot of Fords are produced in England and Germany, but Ford still is an American Brand for quality cars.

In the past and even now a lot of electronic equipment like TVs CD-players etc, had components made by Philips, produced in the Netherlands or elsewhere.

Even the all American Apple is very dependend on parts produced in other countries. Though most parts are produced in Korea or China, it still is a product of American origin and ingenuity....

Just to keep you all thinking and open minded.... There is no text saying:

Apple Ipod, ASSEMBLED in the USA :-)

So I guess...

Apple and Ford still are American Icons,
Jaguar and Land/Range Rover remain cars of good old British sophistication....

and er...

Edison, Bexley, etc probably use German nibs...

So I hope I did not complicate the story of a Fountain Pen being...

TRUE, German, American, British etc. etc. are what so ever :-)

Warmest regards,

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#27 cellmatrix

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 13:44

On the high end market, not yet, on the low end how could the European manufacturers not be aware of the competition from Chinese manufacturers? It seems like an obvious point. Personally I haven't bought any Chinese pens nor plan to as I prefer vintage pens, but I love Chinese tea! By the way, I believe the phrase is "DOWN their necks" not "IN their necks". :)

#28 Morbus Curiositas

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 16:00

On the high end market, not yet, on the low end how could the European manufacturers not be aware of the competition from Chinese manufacturers? It seems like an obvious point. Personally I haven't bought any Chinese pens nor plan to as I prefer vintage pens, but I love Chinese tea! By the way, I believe the phrase is "DOWN their necks" not "IN their necks". :)


On the grammar you could be wright there...

The Dutch saying is...

In de nek hijgen...Panting in the neck :-)

Wrongly translated... false friends...

Thanks for the little English class :-):-):-)

I will have a cup of chinese tea now and think of you :-)

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism  :) 


#29 KBeezie

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 18:31

      
What product doesn't have/did not have foreign components today an in the past.
...

 

I recall my first car a '99 Chevy Metro LSi Coupe was an "American" Car, Assembled in Canada, with Japanese (Suzuki) parts. :P

 

But I don't think the big brands are worried at all, mainly because those "knockoffs" cannot be sold outside of China (or similar countries) in a brick and mortar or retail online shop without facing some kind of cease and desist letter if the design is close enough a knockoff. The Jinhao 159 for example only escapes this because of that Jinhao Badge on the clip. But I imagine if either the 599, or the Hero Lamy clone etc, were to sell in the US online or brick-n-mortar there would be some legal trademark trouble with the retailer.

Besides the vast majority of people who want a Lamy, are going to buy a Lamy. If all they wanted was the look of it, then they're going for something that can be easily provided by just bout anyone and not what a Lamy/Kaweco/etc is primarily used for.  



#30 displacermoose

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 21:56

Rightly or wrongly, people tend to associate Chinese pens with junk, or at least unreliability; in the responses to the "what should my first fountain pen be" around there, responders frequently steer newbies away from Chinese pens, helping that attitude to perpetuate itself. Chinese pens have a lot of bad press to overcome, at least in the U.S., and that's not something that can happen over night. In my personal experience, the bad reputation is completely spurious. I own 18 Chinese pens and have only encountered one real dud. All the rest of the pack works great with only minor adjustments.
Hello, my name is Sarah. I'm addicted to fountain pens, knitting, and books.

#31 KBeezie

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 22:14

Rightly or wrongly, people tend to associate Chinese pens with junk, or at least unreliability; in the responses to the "what should my first fountain pen be" around there, responders frequently steer newbies away from Chinese pens, helping that attitude to perpetuate itself. Chinese pens have a lot of bad press to overcome, at least in the U.S., and that's not something that can happen over night. In my personal experience, the bad reputation is completely spurious. I own 18 Chinese pens and have only encountered one real dud. All the rest of the pack works great with only minor adjustments.

 

There are of course some people who would think of any pen requiring 'minor' adjustments being a dud out of the box, but I think that if you truely wanted something to work perfectly out of the box requiring absolutely no adjustments at all (or the chance of not needing any), then that's going to be several hundred dollars and possibly a trip to the Boutique (or purchased directly from a nibmeister which will have aligned and tested each pen before selling). 

 

Because other than those and custom/handmade, even a pen in the 100-200 range may need 'minor' adjustments out of the box, usually sometimes just a little nib re-seating if they're the friction/screw fit kind. Noodler's statistically seem to need more adjustment than most the Chinese pens out of the box, so yes there are some non-Chinese brands that appear to have similar level of quality control (though the non-Chinese ones tend to consistently use the same parts every time). 



#32 displacermoose

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 00:29

Because other than those and custom/handmade, even a pen in the 100-200 range may need 'minor' adjustments out of the box, usually sometimes just a little nib re-seating if they're the friction/screw fit kind.


That is kind of my point. I initially got into nib grinding because of my third Kaweco with asymetrical tipping. On the whole, my Chinese pens usually require 30 seconds realigning the tines with my fingernail, if that much. So when I talk to newcomers, I tend to present Chinese pens as the best bang for their buck and the chance to learn some very basic adjustment techniques. It's good, in my thinking at least, to be a bit self-sufficient.
Hello, my name is Sarah. I'm addicted to fountain pens, knitting, and books.





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