John Foley Bank Pen Nib?

[ClaytonLittle]

I recently came across this gold dip pen flex nib in an Ebay sale. On the nib it says "John Foley Bank Pen, New York, 1866, No. 7". I read the history of the John Foley Pen Company, but it contained little information on the nibs themselves. I haven't written with it as I don't have the original nib holder and I don't want to risk damaging it by shoving onto a fountain pen. However, I have noticed that it has absolutely crazy flex and the point is extremely fine yet smooth, even when moving the nib in all directions when flexed. Does anyone have some more information about this nib?

 

[Randal6393]

Don't have any knowledge about the fountain pens but feel an Blackwell Elbow Oblique holder from John Neal Books would allow you to test out the nib and write with it without damage to the pen nib.

 

Best of luck to you,

[Uncle Red]

Oo, congrats on the pen. I'd go with a straight holder but that's me.

[Paddler]

Be careful about flexing this nib too far too often. There is no hole at the end of the slit to spread the stress and that can result in a crack appearing there.

[ClaytonLittle]

Thanks for the advice, ya'll. I'll probably just leave the nib alone for the foreseeable future. Kinda cool just having something so old.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Bank nibs were not then 'flexible' in it was for post office and banks where any and all ... including the ham fisted wrote checks with it.

 

Some day you will get something so flexible a Wet Noodle fountain pen is a nail....like a Hunt 99-100-101, and there are nibs even more flexible like the fabled 303 Gillette and others.

[Maria]

Bank nibs were not then 'flexible' in it was for post office and banks where any and all ... including the ham fisted wrote checks with it.

 

Some day you will get something so flexible a Wet Noodle fountain pen is a nail....like a Hunt 99-100-101, and there are nibs even more flexible like the fabled 303 Gillette and others.

 

Bo Bo Olson,

 

I own a 1872 John Foley Bank Nib No. 10, and it does flex, it does have a fine tip, it is a gold nib that attaches in a two-piece nib holder, that would go into a box for transportation in a pocket or in a writing slope. It isn't a 'wet noodle' however, it wouldn't be something in the lobby for the public to use. It behaves more like an accountant's nib. With so much surface that can be dipped in ink, its writing time/length/abilities would be longer than average. It would be important for an accountant that has to do their math not to loose their place or become distracted. I managed 10 lines before re-dipping.

 

I do agree with other posters concerning the stressing of the nib is higher than those with vents/holes/reservoirs, however an accountant that has ledgers and small areas to write in would want the finest tip possible as to 'fill in' the figures with enough flex in relation to the tip (or the feet of the nib -- the writing portion).

 

The pen staff, I shall mention as it too is important and if at all possible, to marry the nib to the pen holder. Google "John Foley Pen Advertisement" and you should be able to pull up a 1865 John Foley Pen(s) advertisement, showing all the different models offered, to include the Banker's nib No. 10 with a big pen staff.

 

As I mentioned before, it pulls apart as to 'break down' and be placed into a box. There is a section that is raised that craddles the nib in the holder/receiver portion. It is a hollow tube on the one end that slides over the wood portion, which has a brass support sleeve where the gold pen nib/receiver portion slides onto snuggly.

 

Men with big hands will find this nib holder extremely comfortable and when writing for a long period of time, comfort means a lot.

 

Now. One thing must be abundently clear about antique pens from the 1700's through the early 1900's that have gold nibs. Writers had a very light touch, they didn't write as if they were trying to make multiple carbon copies. Looking at many a vintage pen staff, combination dip pens--the channel placed under the index finger wouldn't make sense if writers were heavy handed with their writing instruments. The cause for most damage in the sliding back and forth of vintage dip pens, is due to someone pressing too harshly and bending the metal under their index finger. Writing wasn't meant to be torture so, I find when teaching students, that I ask them to think of writing with a paint brush. The nibs will flex under their finger but, the aim for those hair line strokes are made by the weight alone of the pen staff.

 

I frequently demonstrate this by placing a pen staff and nib inked in the web of my hand between thumb and index finger and drag the nib on the paper. It does mark beautifully and most fine at that. The flex used for shading, is used for that purpose alone. To keep it stressed dumping ink, would be better served by a broader point.

 

The 'gold' bankers nib should not be confused with the steel nib identified as 'Banker Nibs.' Two different purposeful nibs, the steel being more robust and harder to flex with as to hold up with use by the public. But, for John Foley, he didn't make nibs in mass production for common use by the common man, e.g. uneducated; yes for the writers who were more business and educated. All of his nibs are gold. They are stamped with the year they were produced and made in New York, where it was at one time pre-American Civil War and post American Civil War ; the "Detroit" of pen and nib production.

 

Owning a John Foley, No. 5 made in 1865-6 (worn as not to fully read the last digit), it is delightfully fine tipped nib with flex. Like the Banker No. 10, it isn't a 'wet noodle.' But, it flexs for the style of writing for the times -- Copperplate/Engrosser Script; American Business and post Civil War -- Spencerian.

 

Respectfully,

Maria

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maria

[headrom]

Can anyyone give me the links for history of John foley company. I want to check some infos from her. Thanks!

[Goudy]

Here's a "John Foley's Bank Pen" from 1865.

 

http://i.imgur.com/2yttWai.jpg

 

It was a characteristic of these pens that the date of manufacture was imprinted on the nib, possibly to reassure buyers that they were getting the very latest in writing technology. To collectors now, of course, the date adds some historical interest to the item. 1865 was the year of Lincoln's assassination, and the year that "Alice in Wonderland" was first published.

 

Under the date would be printed the size number of the nib. I haven't pulled the nib from its holder (it seems a pity to stress it for no reason), so the size is a mystery for the time being. It's a few sizes bigger than another Foley nib I have (a No.6), and is about the same as my John Holland 10 - though there was little conformity in size numbering from one maker to another at this period.

 

The handle is the pull-apart type mentioned by Maria in her excellent post, and the pen came with its original box.

 

http://i.imgur.com/TnuIy5l.jpg

 

Like Bo Bo Olson, I was half expecting this nib to be a utilitarian nail, the 19th century equivalent of a biro in a modern bank lobby. It isn't. It has a fine tip, soft springy flex, and a smooth feel on the page, as refined and delicate as the best nibs of this era by top tier makers like Aikin Lambert and Mabie Todd. Definitely not the sort of thing to put in a bank lobby for Joe Public to manhandle or walk off with.

 

http://i.imgur.com/4TNbuRH.jpg

 

The dots in the picture below are 5mm apart, to give an idea of scale:

 

http://i.imgur.com/WkXZvpW.jpg

 

 

[Goudy]

Here's a 12-and-a-half "extra fine" Foley, one of the largest Bank Pens that they made, though not the largest Foley nib by a long way. The little pen beside it is an Aikin Lambert No.1 of the same period:

 

http://i.imgur.com/UXToWCQ.jpg

 

Why did they call it a 12-and-a-half, rather than a 13? The answer is not that they were superstitious, but that the "half" number was used to designate the short style of nib. Sizes 13 to 15 were reserved for a different type of nib, the "bishop's hat" or "barrel pen", where the nib and ferrule were all one piece and slotted straight onto the wooden shaft. Like the Bank Pens, the larger sizes had their own names. No. 16 was an Insurance Pen, No.17 was an Editorial Pen, No.18 was a Bookkeeper's Pen, No.19 was a Professional Pen, No.20 was an Express Pen, No.21 was a Merchant's Pen. From 22 upwards, the nibs were marked Broad Point, "for coarse writing". The largest was a No.25, which must have been a monster.

 

This information is based on John Foley's 1876 catalogue, pages of which are reproduced below:

 

http://i.imgur.com/sFnVJjl.jpg

 

http://i.imgur.com/4wryb2q.jpg

[Uncle Red]

Wow, that 12 1/2 is a monster.

[AAAndrew]

[drooling all over my keyboard]

 

Amazing pens! And great photography to show them off well! (Goudy's 1865 Foley looks practically mint, gorgeous)

 

ClaytonLittle, you've got yourself a very nice find there.

 

I'm more knowledgeable in the realm of the humble steel pens. These were the "Bic Stick" of the day, but only in terms of numbers, not in lack of character. The Bank Pens were a specific style of pen, usually larger (wider and longer) than most straight nibs. Usually a medium to fine point and made to be durable. (bankers hate spending money when they don't have to)

 

I have about nine or ten different models and they are all similar in size but vary widely in "action" (flexibility and spring), with the Hunt x-57 and Birmingham 225 being the stiffest (5-6x), up to the Samuel Isaacs 10 which is quite flexible at 10-12x.

 

The gold pens above would be more accurately "Bankers Pens", i.e. the pen used by the banker him or herself (don't know if there were female bankers in the period) rather than the tellers or other staff who would use the steel bank pens.

 

I'd wait and see if you can find a holder. I've never seen a Foley nib outside the holder, but they appear to have a different profile than most dip nibs, and may need the special holder to fully support the nib and prevent damage.

 

Congrats!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Maria,

Thank you for your information....I'm writing a City Slicker western 1881-2, maybe I can slip that Foley nib into the desk of HAW Tabor up at the mansion, when his wife kicked him out the house for living with his gold digging mistress.

 

I became very much an Augusta Tabor fan while writing my book. She was a workaholic, and thrifty. Her husband the richest man in Colorado, was spending $300,000 gold dollars a month and wouldn't give her a great divorce settlement....not that she wanted one. Didn't want to give her even as much money as he threw out every month.

 

I did not like the gold digger Baby Doe.

Irony is, Augusta finally took her $3 million (150,000 twenty Double Eagles or 1 oz of gold at now $1,230, $84,500,000) settlement and died rich, he neglected to diversify and when broke in the Depression of 1893. The gold digger and their children met bad ends.

 

That nib would go well on his gold pen on his great desk.

[Goudy]

The gold pens above would be more accurately "Bankers Pens", i.e. the pen used by the banker him or herself (don't know if there were female bankers in the period) rather than the tellers or other staff who would use the steel bank pens.

 

I doubt if it was bankers alone who bought them, though. The name may have just meant "good enough to grace a bank manager's desk". A giant pen, with all its Freudian implications, would have been a symbol of status and power. The Meisterstuck 149 of its time, perhaps. The oversize nibs are not all that easy to write with, due to your gripping fingers being so far from the page (like holding a fountain pen halfway up the barrel); but it would have looked impressive when using it to sign million dollar contracts.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Goudy