A Cheap Pen And A Question About Nibs

[ImperialJoe]

I've been writing with a 5 euro brandless fountain pen that I got in Germany for half a year now. It dispenses more ink at my hand than on the paper, so I finally decided to get a new one.

My budget is approx 20$ on ebay, nothing too serious. I saw that there were a few options for my budget - Noodler's Ahab, Nemosine Singularity, Parker IM.

I need a pen for a lot of writing, not only letters but math as well.

 

Also, I have a question about nibs. It appears that my current pen is a medium. Is there some preference for a certain nib specificly for writing? Perhaps a extra fine nib will be better or is it purely personal?

Edited March 17, 2014 by ImperialJoe

[KBeezie]

Any objections to ones from China at that budget?

 

Far as nib size, I find it's generally personal preference, but it can also be a matter of what paper and ink you use. For example I can't use anything larger than a 'fine' in my cambridge notebook I was given or it'll feather to high hell. Some regions' "fines" are bigger than others, for example my Jinhao 611 is about the same if not thinner than the Goulet "extra fine" nib (Jowo/German made) I use on my Jinhao X750. But 'fine' can also be more useful if you are using a small memo pad and don't have that much room to write to begin with. But depending on the nib/brand/ink, a finer nib can feel scratchier too instead of smoother like a lot of mediums.

 

In your price range for non-chinese, I have a Nemosine Singularity, but I got it with the 0.8 stub nib, which ran dry quite a bit and was kind of resistant on paper (the Goulet 1.5mm stub nib was buttery smooth compared to it). And since I already use a stub nib on my X450, I put the Jinhao X450's 2-tone nib onto my Nemosine Singularity and the writing was much smoother (and also more practical to use as it's a medium size).

 

If I were to do it again, I'd be in a toss up between just getting a Jinhao X750 again with a Goulet nib (like I've already done as I use a X750 with a Goulet Extra Fine, since that's almost 25$ exactly there), or something like a Pilot Metropolitan or Nemosine Fission (Medium probably).

[KBeezie]

PS: The kind of ink you use can also make a difference in terms of nib size, for example the extra-cheap Hero 616 (PS: I obviously don't recommend that for your replacement) which has a nib size even finer than the Jinhao 611 I use, it does very well with Noodler's black eel which is lubricated, but has quite a bit of trouble with the OEM black ink that Nemosine ships with their singularity. I currently use Noodler's Black Eel with my X750+Goulet EF, but I'm using R&K Scabiosa (iron gall) with the Nemosine Singularity + Jinhao Medium Nib without any flow problems.

Oh here's a quick write sample I did the other day (I was re-testing the 616 at the bottom when I flushed the ink out), it's on Rhodia dotpad which is basically vellum so it hardly bleeds or feathers but can take longer for wetter nibs to dry (in the case of the Hero 616... seemed like very fast drying, but it doesn't let out much ink to begin with).

http://static.karlblessing.com/reviews/paper/rhodia5x5dotpad_front_rescan_s.jpg

Edited March 17, 2014 by KBeezie

[ImperialJoe]

I didn't like the Jinhao X750, and I would prefer something branded and of reletively high quality. I understand that it's a bit too much to ask for such a low budget, but I did see some nice options.

What about Parker IM or Noodler's Ahab?

[WirsPlm]

Check out Pilot's low cost offerings, particularly the 78G because it has small nibs which are better for math ($15 shipped on eBay with very thin F, M and B italic nibs) or Metropolitan ($20 on eBay, largish M nib). I use those everyday, they're great inexpensive daily writers that are very reliable and sturdy. Chinese pens have QC issues and reliability problems that can make them a bad bet unless you're willing to tinker and fix stuff (and willing to have a few failures).

Edited March 17, 2014 by WirsPlm

[KBeezie]

I didn't like the Jinhao X750, and I would prefer something branded and of reletively high quality. I understand that it's a bit too much to ask for such a low budget, but I did see some nice options.

What about Parker IM or Noodler's Ahab?

 

Branded of 'high quality' doesn't necessarily equal such. I'd probably go with a Pilot Metropolitan then. I haven't heard much on the Parker, but I hear on occasion that Noodler's quality control for Ahab/etc seems to be hit-or-miss sometimes (usually requires adjusting the nib or something like that). Quality wise my X750 with a Goulet Nib was the best $25 I spent and I don't feel like I'm going to break it easily like I would my Singularity.

 

On the Nemosine side, I'd go fission instead of singularity (metal vs plastic), my singularity demonstrator was already showing stress cracks around the cap new out of the box. And while I haven't tried Noodler's pens, based on what I've read from various people I'd be more inclined to get their $40-range pens rather than go with the $20 ones where there seems to be better options.

[KBeezie]

Check out Pilot's low cost offerings, particularly the 78G ($15 shipped on eBay with very thin F, M and B italic nibs) or Metropolitan ($20 on eBay, largish M nib). I use those everyday, they're great inexpensive daily writers that are very reliable and sturdy. Chinese pens have QC issues and reliability problems that can make them a bad bet unless you're willing to tinker and fix stuff (and willing to have a few failures).

 

Except some US-based companies like Goulet Pen Company wouldn't bother to sell the Jinhaos if it was *that* bad as they take a huge gamble selling them when there's a required order minimum (GPC is where I got my X750 + Goulet Nib).

 

But like you said with the Chinese ones like the Jinhao X450/X750/159, you're usually re-seating the nib/feed yourself with the easy friction fit, where as with something like the Pilot Metro, it's already set and *should* be perfect out of the factory.

[KBeezie]

Oh by the way, a review from one of my favorite reviewers on the Pilot Metropolitan:

 

 

and a follow up review he did on the Ahab.

 

 

and just for kicks, his review of the X750

 

Edited March 17, 2014 by KBeezie

[KBeezie]

Oh... and he reviewed the Parker IM

 

[WirsPlm]

 

Except some US-based companies like Goulet Pen Company wouldn't bother to sell the Jinhaos if it was *that* bad as they take a huge gamble selling them when there's a required order minimum (GPC is where I got my X750 + Goulet Nib).

 

But like you said with the Chinese ones like the Jinhao X450/X750/159, you're usually re-seating the nib/feed yourself with the easy friction fit, where as with something like the Pilot Metro, it's already set and *should* be perfect out of the factory.

US-based companies sell the Hero 616 you dislike so much too (and the Goulets' sell Noodler's Ahab pens, which have incredibly inconsistent quality), store is not guarantee of quality anymore than price is. The whole problem with Chinese pens is that there's no guarantees, so they're a good bargain if you have time and knowledge for tinkering and fixing but they're lousy pens to recommend for a newbie who's just looking for something to write with, lack of QC means that there's little consistency so there's no way to know that they'll get the same experience you did (also, I note that you completely replaced the nib, which is often more tinkering than new people feel comfortable with).

Edited March 17, 2014 by WirsPlm

[KBeezie]

US-based companies sell the Hero 616 you dislike so much too (and the Goulets' sell Noodler's Ahab pens, which have incredibly inconsistent quality), store is not guarantee of quality anymore than price is.

The dislike of the H616 seems rather consistent, and my like of the X750 is also rather consistent with everyone I know that has one. Either way I posted some reviews of the others he mentioned, might help him make up his own mind. I usually don't just chalk up a country-of-origin to be the primary reason to dismiss a pen/model.

[WirsPlm]

The dislike of the H616 seems rather consistent, and my like of the X750 is also rather consistent with everyone I know that has one. Either way I posted some reviews of the others he mentioned, might help him make up his own mind. I usually don't just chalk up a country-of-origin to be the primary reason to dismiss a pen/model.

I don't dismiss pens based on where they come from (and I'm not sure where you came up with that, I don't know many people on FPN who do), but Chinese models aren't a great thing to recommend for someone who is simply interested in a pen that works, they're the same situation as the Noodler's pens (great when they work, crappy when they don't and they don't work more often than other brands), I like the Hero 616 better than the 750, but I wouldn't recommend either for the OP since the OP has specifically asked for a branded pen that's more reliable.

 

As for nib sizes, many people like the smaller nibs for math work or for long meetings or classes because finer nibs are easier to use in diagrams and equations and make ink last longer, but there's a tradeoff where the smaller nibs have more feedback (feel less smooth) so it's a matter of personal preference of how thin you need the line vs how smooth you want your pen, I find the Pilot 78G M to be the best tradeoff for me (about .6mm line width, very nice and smooth nib) but your preference might be different.

Edited March 17, 2014 by WirsPlm

[KBeezie]

I don't either (and I'm not sure where you came up with that, I don't know many people on FPN who do), I was just pointing out that Chinese models aren't a great thing to recommend for someone who is simply interested in a pen that works, they're the same situation as the Noodler's pens (great when they work, crappy when they don't and they don't work more often than other brands). I like the Hero 616 better than the 750, but I wouldn't recommend either for the OP since the OP has specifically asked for a branded pen that's more reliable.

 

And as such I did follow up with what I'd aim for if I dropped those options

In regards to : "and I'm not sure where you came up with that" you said " Chinese pens have QC issues and reliability problems " which is of course blankets the country of origin, the bit more expensive TWSBI is based out of Taiwan (which many lump together with China).

 

So far the tally from the two of us is two for Pilot Metropolitan, and two against Noodler's Ahab. (Parker Undecided)

[WirsPlm]

 

And as such I did follow up with what I'd aim for if I dropped those options

In regards to : "and I'm not sure where you came up with that" you said " Chinese pens have QC issues and reliability problems " which is of course blankets the country of origin, the bit more expensive TWSBI is based out of Taiwan (which many lump together with China).

 

So far the tally from the two of us is two for Pilot Metropolitan, and two against Noodler's Ahab. (Parker Undecided)

There are certain characteristics that pens from various parts of the world share and it's useful to group them for that purpose (Japanese pens tend to be reliable and have tiny nibs, Chinese pens have funky feature at good price points, Indian pens have more colorful looks and tend toward eyedroppers, German nibs are usually bigger, Italian pens generally look awesome, there's a bunch of general guidelines). Grouping pens by common characteristics isn't dismissing any particular group, it's having an honest discussion about the pros and cons of the various approaches to pen production. I prefer the Chinese approach than a few other approaches but it doesn't seem appropriate for the OP here since it's not what the OP asked for.

 

TWSBI is actually very similar to the mainland Chinese companies, they make pens that provide uncommon features at a lower price point by taking things engineered by older companies that have lost patent protection and mass producing them (and if you want to talk about quality issues, TWSBI had them by the boatloads, which didn't stop people from liking them and seems to have been ironed out largely, but it is something to pay attention to when considering pen purchases).

Edited March 17, 2014 by WirsPlm

[ac12]

I like quite a few cheaper pens:

• Pilot Metropolitan (or IM in other parts of the world)
  • Only available in Japanese M nib size, however the nib/feed of other Pilot pens can be swapped in.
  • A fantastic pen for the price.
  • VERY smooth nib.
  • A converter is included with the pen. This is normally a separate purchase item for most other pens.
  • Weighs 26 grams.
• Parker IM
  • Only nib size is M.
    However Parker has a nib exchange program to exchange the nib for a different nib, but the exchange must be done within 28 days of purchase.
  • Both M and F nibs that I tried wrote very well with Waterman ink.
  • The Parker IM is a bit heavy at 30 grams.
• Baoer 388 and 801
  • The 388 is a close copy of the Parker Sonnet, the 801 is a close copy of the Parker 88.
  • Only available in Chinese F and M nibs sizes. The M size is harder to find.
  • The 388 requires nib tweaking to get the ink to flow well.
  • Converter is included in the price.
  • Very inexpensive when purchased in bulk. The 801 is/was available 6 for $20 from one seller, and the 388 was 7 for $25. This is less than $3.40 per pen. This price is shipped to your mailbox.
  • The 388 and 801 weigh about 24 grams.

As for nibs, there definitely is a logic to the madness.

• For ruled paper I pick the nib size based on the line spacing. The wider the spacing the wider the nib. Writing with a wide nib in narrow line spacing makes the writing look messy.
  • US college ruled, 7.1mm, my preference is old Parker F = Lamy XF
  • US wide ruled, 8.7mm, my preference is old Parker M = Lamy F
• For Christmas or birthday cards and special letters, I use a 1.1mm italic nib, to give the line variation in my writing without the work of a flex pen.
• If you do a lot of numbers in small spaces, like accountants columnar pads, then you want to use an XF or XXF nib. I used to use a 0.3mm pencil in college on columnar pads.
• If you do math (superscripts and subscripts, etc) then you probably want an XF nib to keep the math formula within the line space. But this depends on how you write, some people use 2 lines for their math equations, giving them lots of room and could use a M nib.
• Signatures, this depends on how much space you have; small box = XF or F, large open area B or cursive italic.

So what I am saying is, it is NOT a "one size fits all." There is no one nib size for everything. While you can use one nib size for many purposes, you will run into places where that nib size won't work.

Example, you could use a M nib for 90 or 95% of your writing, then have to sign a form with a small box for your signature. Your signature with a M nib would be messy because you have to compress your signature to fit into the box. That is when a F or even XF nib might be needed.

 

As for nib sizes, notice above where I say "old Parker F = Lamy XF." Nib size comparisons are only valid for the specific company. There is no standard, each company can use their own definition of what is a F nib. There are generalities that kind of hold. Asian pens generally have narrower nibs. A Pilot M = Lamy F. But even within the Asian market, there are differences.

And to put objectivity behind this, I measured some of my nibs. I measured the Lamy F, old Parker M, Pilot Metro M all with a tip width of approximately 0.028 inch.

[KBeezie]

but it doesn't seem appropriate for the OP here since it's not what the OP asked for.

 

Thought we moved past that already.

[scrivelry]

I do not have a Metropolitan or an MR or a 78 G but I see them consistently get great reviews here. The Metropolitan does not come in a fine.

 

I have to say I have a bunch of Chinese pens and most of them were fine out of the bubble-wrap. I am particularly happy with both my Baoer 388's. However, they are not really a fine tip, so if you want a fine tip for math and like that, they will not do that for you. I would not say they are more hit-or miss than the Ahabs. Which I think leaves you back at the 78G if you want a fine.

[death89]

If you don't mind going second hand I'd like to stick a recommendation in for the Parker 15 (earlier jotter FPs) I have several English and French made (not had the chance to get a US one yet) and all of them are great writers. I only get the flighter / epoxy models as the plastic one I had did crack in the end (mostly my fault as I lost the barrel band). They have all been dependable and surprisingly smooth with whatever ink I use. The medium Flighter I used through school did me fine for all math based subjects but I did turn the nib 180 degrees to do powers,etc.

[Sasha Royale]

The vintage Parker 45 is a workhorse that I used through college and after. For forty years, a Parker 45 has been the pen in

my pocket. It is durable and easy to maintain. You might be able to find one on Ebay for $20, but likely a few dollars more.

Another daily use pen, with which I have had limited experience, but like very much, is the Reform 1745, in your price limit.

 

I have some experience with the "budget-level" chinese pens. They can be very good. However, quality control is very, very

inconsistent. My Jinhao x750 pens gave just enough adequate service to remain a headache for two years. I don't use them

anymore.

[crw]

I have a pilot 78g with a fine nib I think it will do what you need. you can get them for around $10.00 It puts down a fine line and writes nice