Feedback? What's That?

[Vlad Soare]

I keep stumbling upon the notion of "feedback". Some people seem to love it, some seem to hate it, some say that the lack of it in certain fountain pens makes them "boring", etc.

What exactly is this about?

 

Thank you.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Vlad Soare

[Koyote]

It is a subjective description. To me, it is not scratchiness. Rather, feedback may be akin to the drag felt when writing with a smoothly-worn pencil tip. Slight resistance, or "grip," combined with smoothness.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Koyote

[Vlad Soare]

So, if the pen writes extremely smoothly, as if gliding over the surface of the paper, then it has no feedback?

And if you feel a small amount of friction between the nib and the paper, then it has feedback?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Vlad Soare

[jar]

So, if the pen writes extremely smoothly, as if gliding over the surface of the paper, then it has no feedback?

And if you feel a small amount of friction between the nib and the paper, then it has feedback?

 

That's getting closer but it is slightly more than just how smooth the nib is.

 

Does the pen tend to rotate when you write or is it as controllable as a finger tip? Does the section fit your hand? Does the pen feel like an extension of your body and give you tactile information about the writing surface?

 

A great pen will do all those things and you will feel your writing surface just as if you were writing with your fingertip.

 

The line though is subjective. It is part of your personal likes and dislikes and will change as your experience grows.

[casualmerlinconstant]

I find it hard to differentiate between slight scratchiness and feedback. I interpret feedback as vibrations coming up to the section.

[85AKbN]

"feedback".

 

an interchangeable adjective that can praise or disparage.

[Pickwick]

I was using dip pens along with fountain pens before the ballpoint pen finally became reliable. Feedback for me is I can hear the sound of the pen in contact with the paper, which sounds like scratchiness yet it's not.

[Lady P]

Everyone's got a slightly different definition. But I think that when people say that a pen gives some feedback, it generally boils down to this: the nib is not completely smooth, and yet it's not unpleasant.

[rwilsonedn]

Some people use the word feedback as a polite way of saying "only slightly scratchy." Others mean something more like "I can sense the surface roughness of the paper through the pen when I write." That's different from sensing a rough nib tearing at the surface of the paper. But the difference can be small, especially with F or EF points, where the tip of the nib actually moves up and down over the paper fibers rather than gliding over them.

ron

[lahlahlaw]

I consider feedback to be pretty much the feeling of a freshly sharpened pencil.

[Steven]

Here is some feedback. When you write with a pen and enjoy it, that is positive feedback. When you write and you don't like the way the pen feels that is negative feedback. The 1st law of fountain pens dictates that one gravitates to pens with the highest positive feedback. The pens with the highest positive feedback are the pens that end up in your rotation. The pens with lower or negative feedback end up as your collection. It's that simple.

[Bo Bo Olson]

There is butter smooth, where you slide off of slick good paper.

There is the step under, good and smooth where it don't. There is no drag.

 

Under that starts 'toothy', the feeling of a pencil on paper. It can with Verge/ribbed paper be very noticeable...ie scratchy, but not on smoother papers. Once can feel the paper. On good paper there is no drag.

 

Under this there can be drag using a dry ink. There the problem is is that drag or is that tooth? Drag can be removed with just a slight touch of micro-mesh....First, Check to see if a wetter ink works.

 

Scratchy is more unpleasant than 'toothy'.

Scratchy most often is say 95% of the time, misaligned tines, and or, holding a fountain pen like a ball point before the big index knuckle rather than behind it.

 

To some who are often noobie, who think all nibs must be butter smooth, they could mistake 'pencil' toothy, for scratchy. Not having a sufficient supply of inks and good to better papers....can grind at a nib that is just fine; into a ruin.

Grinding a nib often makes it fat. What has been ground off is gone forever. Grinding is the Last, not the first thing one does to a nib.

 

Scratchy seems to have drag, paper noise, paper resistance to it.....I'm lucky having had very few scratchy nibs.

Plain old paper noise or singing is just fine.

 

 

Do take care with Medium or Fine vintage German Oblique (OM-OF) nibs that are from the time normal German nibs had a bit of flex, pre '66, even regular flex..it can feel real scratchy, if the pen is not held canted like it must.

I had that 'trouble' as noobie, with a German oblique OM nib with semi-flex, back when I really didn't know much about Obliques, much less the good ones with a tad of flex. Luckily, I put that pen away, instead of grinding like a mad man, until I smoothed and ruined that nib. OB can be held regular/wrong, there is a tad of tooth, OM or OF are scratchy when held wrong.

 

In that nib technology was perfected in WW2, pens before that, have lumpier, bumpier 'iridium', so will have more 'feel' to them. One don't want to smooth up old pre'war nibs much; or lumps and bumps can be torn out. There good and smooth or a slight bit of tooth is 'good'.

 

Scratchiness can be cured by going to heavier cotton papers, which will eat the shading. 50-100% cotton will "smooth up" a nib. That is a good check to see if your nib is toothy or scratchy.

 

You can grow away from butter smooth, so don't grind on the pen, for some 6 months to see if you have matured to toothy or not.

[MarkTrain]

I am guessing is that it is not so much how smooth the nib is, but rather the shape of the nib at the edges. A perfectly round point is going to give no feedback, while a nib with sharply cut corners is going to feel toothy.

Edited February 5, 2014 by MarkTrain

[Vlad Soare]

Thank you all for your replies. I think I get the idea.

Now comes the second question: is "feedback" a good thing, and if so, why? I think I may be opening a can of worms here , but let me explain what I mean.

 

I've been attracted to fountain pens because of their smooth and comfortable way of writing in comparison to all other instruments. So, for me the smoothness of a fountain pen has always been the ultimate measure of its quality. For me, the smoother, the better. When I got my two new Montblancs, I was stunned. They were the smoothest fountain pens I had ever laid my hands on. They feel like they don't even touch the paper, like they float above the paper (I use to write with a very light touch).

So, I was convinced that I had finally found the holly Grail of fountain pens. My F-nib Tribute to the Montblanc is so comfortable for me that it feels almost like an extention to my hand. I feel like I could write for hours on end. Besides the perfect (at least for me) size and weight distribution, I really love its extreme smoothness.

 

However, while browsing these forums, I stumbled upon a number of threads where not only is smoothness not very appreciated, but quite the contrary, the so-called "feedback" is praised. And silky-smooth fountain pens are called "boring". And this comes from members who are definitely more knowledgeable than I am.

I'm probably missing something, and I'd like to understand what.

 

 

 

[Randal6393]

Feedback is a very personal thing and how much is desirable, again, very much to the individual. For what it's worth, I enjoy a bit of feedback. It makes it easier to write italic or other broad-edge alphabets with the proper form. On the other hand, less feedback is usually good if I am using a pointed pen to write Round-Hand.

 

So, how much feedback? Does a pen feel right in your hand when you are writing? Yes, Montblancs write well and may be the perfect pen for you. My favorite is a Lamy 2000, followed by the two Pelikan M200's. On the lower end of the scale, I get great results and enjoy using my Noodler's Ahab with a 1.1 mm nib from Goulet Pens.

 

Best of luck,

[Shaughn]

In my very humble opinion, this feedback is the tactile information the pen gives to its user. As such it is a good thing while it informs the writer about the writing surfaces' quality, ink flow, nib flex, tine alignment, balance, paper irregularities and whatever more. All this is information about its functioning and functionality in the writing process.

 

It's the amount and character of the feedback that is a personal preference.

 

Riding a car is the same: the feedback of a smooth ride differs from the feedback on a cross country ride. Most drivers prefer the smooth drive feedback, some others prefer the feedback of a cross country 4WD. All get feedback, tactile information. Some adjust their vehicle to emphazize or to subdue some feedback, other adjust ikflow, tines, and so on.

 

Oh well, that's my 2 cents.

[dooooooor]

I honestly have a very vague understanding of feedback v scratchiness, but I tend to prefer it to something that is glassy smooth. I feel like if it's too smooth I lose control of my writing easily. I like it feeling like a freshly sharpened pencil.

[ac12]

Because I use an old Parker F nib, I do NOT want to feel anything coming backup the pen, I want smooth.

If I do feel something coming up the pen, it is usually from paper that is not smooth, and that can quickly bother/irritate me.

Even slight drag bothers me.

Drag is like less than a mirror smooth tip, or a slightly dry tip.

F and XF nibs are more sensitive to this than wider nibs, and to me it becomes a problem faster.

[penrivers]

Its an interference in comunication,radio static, a moral remorse, draging a refrigerator upstairs, a dissapoint, its a nib crying with a tooth pain.

[Plume145]

Everyone's got a slightly different definition. But I think that when people say that a pen gives some feedback, it generally boils down to this: the nib is not completely smooth, and yet it's not unpleasant.

That's my take too, it's what I mean AND how I understand it when others use the word Basically, kind of scratchy, but in a good way