Newbie Questions About Nib Performance

[batric]

I'm using fountain pens for the last 2-3 years and only recently started buying new ones.

 

I have four different pens: Kaweco sport, Waterman Hemisphere, Lamy Vista and a $0.5 Tesco fountain pen.

Oddly enough, the last one outperforms all others, on any paper and any conditions.

 

I would like to understand what's wrong and how things should be. I either got bad pens or have wrong expectations

 

Here are my questions:

1. Is it normal that a pen writes very differently depending on the paper? I.e. printing paper (100g/m2) vs lighter one (60g/m2) vs smoother/rougher?
   Example: Lamy becomes scratchy and writes really bad on printing paper. It's the same with Waterman.
   Kaweco/Tesco swallow anything I put them on though.
   
2. Is the line volume and color supposed to be diluted on certain places?
   Example: only Tesco has a consistent line. Others have diluted parts here and there.
   
3. Is it normal that a pen doesn't write in just slightly off angles?
   Example: Waterman is completely unusable if I rotate it a bit or increase the slant. Others are a bit better, but still Tesco allows the greatest flexibility.

Thanks in any case - hope this makes sense!

[Mathemagician]

At the price points of most of those pens, a lot of how good the nib is comes down to luck. As to your questions:

 

1) That is normal, especially depending on nib size. Be sure not to press too hard, but some pens are just better on bad paper, especially if they have a larger and wetter nib.

 

2)Shading is normal and even wanted in an ink/pen combination. What happens is your tesco seems to have a wetter flow(which is consistent with it being able to write smoother on bad paper) and so the ink comes out much quicker, meaning that the actual line is more saturated.

 

3)Some pens and some nibs have larger or smaller "sweet spots". A lot of it comes down to the specific nib and the grind. What are the nib types on your pens?

[lynxcat]

1. yes; also, the type of ink used has an impact too.

 

ink (viscosity, surface tension, how it interacts with paper), pen (nib, feed, how well it can deliver ink out of the reservoir onto the paper), and the paper itself (absorbency, etcetera) all interact to form the total performance. when people on this forum get mildly obsessive about finding just the right paper and ink for their favorite pen, they're not just being silly, it really does make a difference.

 

printer paper, meant for photocopiers and mainly dry toner, isn't great for liquid inks. cheap office notepads tend to be meant for pencil lead and/or gelly, semi-solid ballpoint ink and not work great either.

 

2. and 3. Mathemagician answered well while i was typing. sounds like your cheap Tesco pen was designed to put down a lot of ink easily almost no matter how it is treated; a good choice considering the target market. experienced writers tend to prefer pens better matched to their specific writing style, although the way you describe your Waterman's pickiness sounds needlessly particular in my opinion.

[batric]

At the price points of most of those pens, a lot of how good the nib is comes down to luck. As to your questions:

 

1) That is normal, especially depending on nib size. Be sure not to press too hard, but some pens are just better on bad paper, especially if they have a larger and wetter nib.

 

2)Shading is normal and even wanted in an ink/pen combination. What happens is your tesco seems to have a wetter flow(which is consistent with it being able to write smoother on bad paper) and so the ink comes out much quicker, meaning that the actual line is more saturated.

 

3)Some pens and some nibs have larger or smaller "sweet spots". A lot of it comes down to the specific nib and the grind. What are the nib types on your pens?

 

Thank you for the answer - it makes much more sense now.

Regarding your third point - Kaweco/Waterman are M, Lamy is F. Tesco doesn't have any marks.

Kaweco/Waterman are relatively broad; Tesco and Lamy are close to each other and are much finer.

 

1. yes; also, the type of ink used has an impact too.

 

ink (viscosity, surface tension, how it interacts with paper), pen (nib, feed, how well it can deliver ink out of the reservoir onto the paper), and the paper itself (absorbency, etcetera) all interact to form the total performance. when people on this forum get mildly obsessive about finding just the right paper and ink for their favorite pen, they're not just being silly, it really does make a difference.

 

printer paper, meant for photocopiers and mainly dry toner, isn't great for liquid inks. cheap office notepads tend to be meant for pencil lead and/or gelly, semi-solid ballpoint ink and not work great either.

 

2. and 3. Mathemagician answered well while i was typing. sounds like your cheap Tesco pen was designed to put down a lot of ink easily almost no matter how it is treated; a good choice considering the target market. experienced writers tend to prefer pens better matched to their specific writing style, although the way you describe your Waterman's pickiness sounds needlessly particular in my opinion.

 

Thank you for the answer - the picky part about paper/pen match was something I didn't completely get before.

Actually it even matches my experience: I recently started using Moleskine notebook with the Lamy and it writes very nice.

 

What is the approximate pricepoint at which these things shouldn't happen anymore and would be considered defects?

Is it "lower" ($100 - $120) or "higher" ($200+)?

[Mathemagician]

Well depending on who you are buying from and the level of the problems, these might already be considered defects or might never be. My Fine Pilot VP is always going to be a bit toothy, and my cursive italic is always going to have a sweet spot. I would say it starts to be considered a defect when it won't write at all. Another option is to buy from either Richard Binder or Nibs.com as they test all of their pens. A cheaper option is to buy some smoothing stuff. Goulet has a great smoothing kit, and since the pens are cheap enough that you don't have to worry too much about ruining them, its a great place to practice. http://www.gouletpens.com/Goulet_Mylar_Paper_Set_p/gpc-mylarpaper.htm

 

The bigger issue that would cause you to return it is if the tines are misaligned. If they are misaligned, it will make the nib scratchy and is a defect that a manufacturer would replace. Most places you buy pens from though would be happy to replace a nib that is defective. The problem is that you need a loupe to check for this.

[rochester21]

The reason you have the impression that a nib is more scratchy on cheap paper is that nib is scratchy. Quality paper can hide the imperfections of a nib, but cheap paper doesn`t do that. In this case, a broader, wetter nib with a bigger tipping ball should behave better than a finer nib.

 

As for changes in ink color as you write, these are normal up to a point. I personally like consistent color, and in this case certain pens and inks behave better than others.

Edited December 15, 2013 by rochester21

[Paddler]

If you examine the tips of your pens with a 10X - 15X magnifier and compare them, you will see why one pen is more scratchy than another. Some folks want a super smooth nib; others prefer a little "tooth" or feedback. You have to decide what you like best.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Yes, a once in a life time buy of a 10-12 of 15 X loupe is needed for fountain pens. Jewelry hallmarks, coins or stamps are other uses.

A good one will cost @$30 or so....a poor one will be needed to buy two or three times. Good glass and coating are worth it's cost.

 

Misaligned nibs are "normal" a bang can put a nib out of alignment and it's easy to fix.

press down from the breather hole the tine that is UP for 4-5 seconds a couple of times.

 

It is rather stupid to smooth a nib whose tines are not aligned .

 

Writing is 1/3 nib width and flex, 1/3 paper and 1/3 ink, and in that order.

 

I have good paper 90-100g for my printer, in I may and often edit what I print out.

I have better paper for having fun scribbling; 100-110-120 and 150-160 g.

 

There is no best pen, best paper or best ink....some nibs are better on certain papers or certain papers allow the nib and the ink to dance better than some other combo.

 

Go to Ink Reviews and look at the threads posted by Sandy1. Those show you how nib width and paper affect an ink.

[ac12]

Bo Bo

I would add one more variable, the writer

25% pen, 25% paper, 25% ink, 25% writer

[Journaler]

Everyone who replied made great points but I concur with Mathemagician and rochester21 on the propensity for flow and good paper to mask nib imperfection. I also think you should look at basic nib alignment and smoothing as has already been suggested.

 

I'm not sure what you pay for the pen necessarily matters. A badly tuned nib is bad no matter what you paid for it. I have an early Montblanc 146 with a nib that I've never been satisfied with. I recently bought a smoothing kit from Richard Binder that included two cheap pens that I could experiment on without concern. With a bit of practice these we're writing way better than the 146. Then I had a crack at a couple of Lamys and was astounded by the improvement. Whilst this gave me the confidence to try it on the 146, it was clear that some expert attention was needed so I've sent it off for repair. Hopefully it will come back and I will be delighted to use it.

 

I also decided that I should get to know what a really good nib feels like to know what I'm aiming for with my smoothing attempts. I am now patiently waiting for the Bexley Corona that I ordered from Richard to arrive (pesky delays on international shipping).

 

This company has an interesting take on price points for nibs that you might find useful: http://www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Fountain-Pens.html

 

I am in no way affiliated to any of the suppliers mentioned in any of my posts.

[batric]

Thank you all for your explanations - this really cleared up the picture for me.

 

I will get a couple of different inks and some notebooks for testing. Hopefully that will get me back on the right track and allow me to get the most of current/future pens

 

 

Everyone who replied made great points but I concur with Mathemagician and rochester21 on the propensity for flow and good paper to mask nib imperfection. I also think you should look at basic nib alignment and smoothing as has already been suggested.

I'm not sure what you pay for the pen necessarily matters. A badly tuned nib is bad no matter what you paid for it. I have an early Montblanc 146 with a nib that I've never been satisfied with. I recently bought a smoothing kit from Richard Binder that included two cheap pens that I could experiment on without concern. With a bit of practice these we're writing way better than the 146. Then I had a crack at a couple of Lamys and was astounded by the improvement. Whilst this gave me the confidence to try it on the 146, it was clear that some expert attention was needed so I've sent it off for repair. Hopefully it will come back and I will be delighted to use it.

I also decided that I should get to know what a really good nib feels like to know what I'm aiming for with my smoothing attempts. I am now patiently waiting for the Bexley Corona that I ordered from Richard to arrive (pesky delays on international shipping).

This company has an interesting take on price points for nibs that you might find useful: http://www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Fountain-Pens.html

I am in no way affiliated to any of the suppliers mentioned in any of my posts.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience and pointing out that paragraph on Cultpens.

Even though I visited their site a few times to search for pens, I didn't notice that write up.

 

I guess it's my turn to experiment now

Edited December 17, 2013 by batric

[georges zaslavsky]

At the price points of most of those pens, a lot of how good the nib is comes down to luck. As to your questions:

 

1) That is normal, especially depending on nib size. Be sure not to press too hard, but some pens are just better on bad paper, especially if they have a larger and wetter nib.

 

2)Shading is normal and even wanted in an ink/pen combination. What happens is your tesco seems to have a wetter flow(which is consistent with it being able to write smoother on bad paper) and so the ink comes out much quicker, meaning that the actual line is more saturated.

 

3)Some pens and some nibs have larger or smaller "sweet spots". A lot of it comes down to the specific nib and the grind. What are the nib types on your pens?

Indeed Indeed

[fpconverted]

I'm using fountain pens for the last 2-3 years and only recently started buying new ones.

 

I have four different pens: Kaweco sport, Waterman Hemisphere, Lamy Vista and a $0.5 Tesco fountain pen.

Oddly enough, the last one outperforms all others, on any paper and any conditions.

 

I would like to understand what's wrong and how things should be. I either got bad pens or have wrong expectations

 

Here are my questions:

 

• Is it normal that a pen writes very differently depending on the paper? I.e. printing paper (100g/m2) vs lighter one (60g/m2) vs smoother/rougher?

  Example: Lamy becomes scratchy and writes really bad on printing paper. It's the same with Waterman.

  Kaweco/Tesco swallow anything I put them on though.

• Is the line volume and color supposed to be diluted on certain places?

  Example: only Tesco has a consistent line. Others have diluted parts here and there.

• Is it normal that a pen doesn't write in just slightly off angles?

  Example: Waterman is completely unusable if I rotate it a bit or increase the slant. Others are a bit better, but still Tesco allows the greatest flexibility.

Thanks in any case - hope this makes sense!

Great questions btw!

I personally have found that higher stock and non recycled paper is better for the flow of liquid inks such as those used in fp's. Personally in my journals I have found clarefontaine paper to be my no. 1 choice.

Ink shading is specific to the density of your jobs, as some may be more opaque than others. That comes with personal taste, Ink quality, and writing style.

Yes certain nibs are meant for a particular angle of contact on paper and this is quite varied in all pens and manufacturers.

[batric]

Here is a short update on my Vista: in the store they said that it has a bad nib, so they replaced it free of charge.

I got it back now and it writes very similar to Kaweco. It's smooth and not so picky about the paper anymore, which is great.

 

@fpconverted thanks for your message! I agree regarding the recycled paper. I have an older notebook and fountain pens don't really work well on it.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Ink Jet paper soaks up the ink so fast it won't shade....might have feathering problems...I don't know I don't have an Ink Jet printer.

Laser paper is best.....right now Fugi-xerox has a real good name. I want to get some.

I do not think combo paper....laser & ink jet can be as good as pure laser, in there is compromises made for ink jet use.

 

Moleskine works with EF or F nibs only, and one needs real fast drying ink. It's a great ball point paper.

 

IMO every time you buy two inks, you should buy a good to better paper for your private stash.

 

I have as I said good printer paper....I could get by with 80g....though 90 g is not that much more expensive.

I have a stash of good to better paper for fun time scribbling.***

That sort of good to better paper only costs you a couple cans of Coke or two cups of Starbuck coffee.

 

***of course I need the real good paper, the real $$$$ good paper. I won't need a whole lot of it....a 50 sheet pack would do. From 6-8-10 of the great paper factories.....don't need them all at once....two a year???

 

(Gmund costs $50 for that 50 sheet pack & I can't make up my mind which of the three papers and four weights I 'need'.) I have over 50 pens, I have over 50 inks....I need to double my paper stash so I have 50 of them too.....

Hummm if I sell some pens I can buy some paper.

No, it hasn't got that bad yet.

 

 

There is no perfect paper, there is no perfect ink, there is no perfect nib and pen. sigh.

Next to perfect works for me.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson