Chinese Pens -- Too Many Look Like Counterfeits!

[Moshe ben David]

Theft is theft, but what you're talking about is not theft. You're using an emotionally charged word incorrectly to push your agenda.

 

Do you know what theft is? I do. I've had the back wheels stolen from my car. That's theft. What you're talking about is the copying of design elements in a pen, not theft.

 

Intellectual property -- design -- is intangible, unlike the wheels from your car. And yes, I've had cars broken into and radios etc stolen. Does not change my statement. Theft is theft.

[Moshe ben David]

I'm done. None of you will convince me and clearly none of you are willing to admit you are enabling theft of intellectual property rights. Go ahead and blather amongst yourselves.

[Cryptos]

 

None of you will convince me and clearly none of you are willing to admit you are enabling theft of intellectual property rights. Go ahead and blather amongst yourselves.

 

That's because you are fighting facts with opinions. The legalities of the situation have already been pointed out. Several times. The copying may be personally distasteful to you, that's your perogative. Personally I may feel that you are unethical spending large sums of money on branded items when so many people are suffering in this world through lack of basic living resources. Ultimately people will do and say what they feel comfortable with, and will justify it accordingly.

 

Samsara is like that.

 

 

Edited: the example above of personal ethical stance is not intended as the start of a debate on charitable contributions. As it can be interpreted in that way I have added strikethrough. Read it at your own risk. The first of my statements still stand with respect ot the OP and his/her subsequent attempts to defend it - "That's because you are fighting facts with opinions."

Edited May 30, 2014 by Cryptos

[TSherbs]

 

Intellectual property -- design -- is intangible, unlike the wheels from your car....

Car wheels are not "tangible"? What meaning of "tangible" are you using?

[Cryptos]

 

None of you will convince me and clearly none of you are willing to admit you are enabling theft of intellectual property rights.

 

What this overtly states is 'I am right and you are wrong', and there is no need for any discussion because I have already decided that I am never going to change my position.

 

Having a personal opinion is one thing, and perfectly acceptable in all free societies I hope, but assuming that everybody else with a differing opinion must, ipso facto, be wrong is rather foolish.

[legitimate3]

I've looked at the Chinese pens, and they seem to write well based on people's reviews, but I don't want to buy a lookalike. I want to buy a pen that is it's own pen. I still want to try a Jinhao just to see what it's like though.

[WirsPlm]

I've looked at the Chinese pens, and they seem to write well based on people's reviews, but I don't want to buy a lookalike. I want to buy a pen that is it's own pen. I still want to try a Jinhao just to see what it's like though.

You're going to be limited to Bic round sticks then if you refuse to buy a pen that doesn't borrow design elements from other pens, just like you'd be limited to reading nonfiction (and maybe religous texts) if you refused to read books that borrowed plot elements from other books.

[dcwaites]

 

You miss a key point. The product in general is generic. Certain elements -- e.g., the 'arrow' pen clip design used by Parker are part of its brand identity. Copying that to the last detail is an infringement. If these companies used a generic pen clip (as an example) they then would not be infringing.

 

No, you are wrong on this point. You do not have indefinite rights to a particular design feature. You have protection in law for 20 years. After that, anybody can copy that feature, legally and morally.

[Moshe ben David]

Car wheels are not "tangible"? What meaning of "tangible" are you using?

 

My point was that car wheels are tangible. Stealing something tangible (car wheels) is no different than stealing something intangible (intellectual property).

[Cryptos]

 

My point was that car wheels are tangible. Stealing something tangible (car wheels) is no different than stealing something intangible (intellectual property).

 

This is understood. However, in the case of pen designs copied by Chinese manufacturers it has already been established that there is no legally defined theft of anything. You can call it what ever you like, the law says otherwise.

[lynxcat]

My point was that car wheels are tangible. Stealing something tangible (car wheels) is no different than stealing something intangible (intellectual property).

 

actually, there's an important and --- pardon the pun --- tangible difference. actual, material, theft deprives you of something physical, something important, which you once had, which you had a right to keep, and which you (after the theft) no longer have. intellectual property infringements in all their various forms do not; at most they deprive you of something potential which you might have gained in some theoretical future which, due to the infringement, might be said won't come about.

 

this is, of course, not to say that intellectual property isn't important. it is; we created the concept for a reason. it's just not identical with, not truly comparable to, material property. using the same word ("theft") to describe crimes impacting one as you do crimes impacting the other is misleading, because implying two fairly different things are somehow the same.

 

(and yes, i'm one of those pesky annoying people who decry the use of the term "software piracy". nerds who illegally copy strings of ones and zeroes while sitting in their mothers' basements ought not be compared to violent criminals who commit hijacking, theft and potentially murder upon the high seas. there's a difference.)

[penrivers]

Nice sophisticated discussion. It reminds me of the subtle arguments about how many angels can be in a pin's head, in Constantinople.

The Chiness fpens are good , I have some.

But they lack classicism, they are new in this environment, maybe 10 or 15 years in the global market with the possible exception of

Hero brand. Perhaps in 50 or 70 years we will know which of them survived time functioning well like their counterparts from America

or Europe, and have the prestige that give the quality and years, right now we don't know. Now I bet for the Jinhaos but who knows?.

[Nonsensical]

 

My point was that car wheels are tangible. Stealing something tangible (car wheels) is no different than stealing something intangible (intellectual property).

Precisely. The key word here is "stealing".

 

Now how does one go about "stealing" something, in other words, what are the key factors?

1. The PROPERTY "tangible" or "intangible" must BELONG to another.

2. The thief must DEPRIVE/take away etc. that property from another without their CONSENT.

 

What I see here is that there is no consent, but there doesn't need to be! The "intangible" property in question does not actually BELONG to anyone else! How do you steal something that belongs to no-one?

Edited May 30, 2014 by Nonsensical

[Sailor Kenshin]

I'm done. None of you will convince me and clearly none of you are willing to admit you are enabling theft of intellectual property rights. Go ahead and blather amongst yourselves.

And yet you have returned...

[TSherbs]

I've looked at the Chinese pens, and they seem to write well based on people's reviews, but I don't want to buy a lookalike. I want to buy a pen that is it's own pen. I still want to try a Jinhao just to see what it's like though.

Some are pretty good! Some of the best, however, are those that look like other pens (but are clearly distinguishable from). Give some a chance, and you will likely be pleased, and with little risk to the pocket (for those of us who are trying to keep pen-spending down).

[TSherbs]

 

My point was that car wheels are tangible. Stealing something tangible (car wheels) is no different than stealing something intangible (intellectual property).

thanks, that's clearer to me now

 

ideas and thoughts are not protected from being used by others, not in this country, anyway

 

designs are tangible, thoughts are not (except as brain wave patterns)

[slipstream13]

 

I understand what you are saying. However. These 'fakes' are being reported even on this forum to in many cases actually being pretty good pens. Further, China has progressed in manufacturing prowess and technical capability to the point where they should be standing on their own reputation. Instead, to my mind by using the design elements of the original manufacturers but claiming these to be Chinese products, they are pirates -- and appear to be trying to simply avoid the expense and bother of marketing for themselves!

 

In the instances where they are under contract to an American company, I do not consider the product as faked; they are being legally manufactured, legally exported under the brand name of the American company who outsourced. I agree with you that in these instances the American companies have indeed shot themselves in the foot in many cases.

 

What it boils down to is plenty of wrong doing to share around! Thanks for responding to my post.

I tend to buy Chinese and Japanese pens because they are the only ones currently within my budget. But, I tend toward trying to find pens that while they may have the traditional cigar shape are not "knock-off" looking pens but rather are unique in and of themselves. The only one I am waiting for that is clearly a reproduction of a pen that I cannot afford yet is the Hero 329 which highly resembles the Parker 51. Knock-offs of just about everything from purses to fine jewelry are available everywhere, so as you put it, there is plenty of wrong doing to share. However, I don't tend to get to worked up about it because all that does is raise my blood pressure

[DaveBj]

Marking this thread so I can find it easily and read it later.

[Sailor Kenshin]

It's not a counterfeit when it's clearly labeled HERO, JINHAO, etc.

[DaveBj]

This has been a very informative thread, and I am grateful to Moshe ben David for starting it and to all who have contributed. I can understand where Mr. ben David is coming from -- that copying design elements is immoral (and, perhaps, fattening) even when it is not illegal (because the legal protections have expired). However, this is not a hill on which I am willing to die.

 

As many others have already pointed out, 1) the legal protections on the design elements (if there ever were any) have expired, and 2) the Chinese companies are selling under their own names and model numbers; they are not trying to palm their products off as true Montblancs/Lamys/whatever. However, that argument will not convince those who see copying Parker's arrow clip as an immoral act, whatever the legal status of the copying might be. That's fine; there is plenty of room in my world for these kinds of disagreements, but until there is some kind of breach of the law, all we have here are differences of opinion. The Chinese pens may be clones, but unless and until the Chinese companies are attempting to sell them under the Montblanc, Parker, or Lamy labels, they are not counterfeits. They are cheap Chinese pens, and everyone who hasn't just fallen off the turnip truck knows that they are cheap Chinese pens.

 

For those who feel that they are taking the higher moral ground by not buying the Chinese lookalikes, I absolutely respect your opinion, and I absolutely respect your right to voice your opinion, but I absolutely do not share your opinion.