Chinese Pens -- Too Many Look Like Counterfeits!

[Moshe ben David]

Gee, and I thought this thread had 'flamed out' months ago!

 

I realize we all have different points of view. What is truly disturbing to me however is just how many people seem only concerned with the impact to their pocket. These folk seem to be totally willing and able to ignore the concept of intellectual property rights. I mean, if budget is your main concern, then buy a product at the budget price without impinging on property rights.

 

Yup, I'm sure I just ignited an entirely new set of flames! Don't care. Theft is theft.

[TSherbs]

Gee, and I thought this thread had 'flamed out' months ago!

 

I realize we all have different points of view. What is truly disturbing to me however is just how many people seem only concerned with the impact to their pocket. These folk seem to be totally willing and able to ignore the concept of intellectual property rights. I mean, if budget is your main concern, then buy a product at the budget price without impinging on property rights.

 

Yup, I'm sure I just ignited an entirely new set of flames! Don't care. Theft is theft.

Whose "intellectual property rights"? Is that a legal term in international law?

 

Words like "only concerned" and "totally willing" and "ignore" and "entirely" tend to indicate argument from extremes. I can't remember seeing someone here suggest any of these extreme positions with these absolute terms.

 

But maybe I missed them.

[Komitadjie]

Well, China has NEVER been overly concerned with actually following the copyright laws, etc of other countries anyway, as far as I've seen. But I guess as long as they're not trying to claim they're the same, or bill themselves as actually BEING the other product, there's no actual legal failure, I think.

 

There's no law against making cheap knock-offs, for better or worse, at least not that can be enforced.

[TSherbs]

Well, China has NEVER been overly concerned with actually following the copyright laws, etc of other countries anyway, as far as I've seen. But I guess as long as they're not trying to claim they're the same, or bill themselves as actually BEING the other product, there's no actual legal failure, I think.

 

There's no law against making cheap knock-offs, for better or worse, at least not that can be enforced.

My Hero pen says "HERO" on it in BIG letters. My Kaigelu 356 says--get this--"Kaigelu 356" on it! I assume that anyone can make a yellow wooden pencil with a pink eraser on the end, right? Even the Chinese can, too?

[dcwaites]

Whose "intellectual property rights"? Is that a legal term in international law?

 

Words like "only concerned" and "totally willing" and "ignore" and "entirely" tend to indicate argument from extremes. I can't remember seeing someone here suggest any of these extreme positions with these absolute terms.

 

But maybe I missed them.

 

The point is that companies like Jinhao, Hero, Kaigelu and the like have not been infringing on anybody's intellectual rights. The protection afforded to Parker, Lamy and Mont Blanc has expired when these companies make pens that are similar, but not identical, to the original. What these companies do is neither immoral nor illegal, as I said earlier. You do not own your intellectual property in perpetuity, regardless of the attempts by Sony, BMG, Disney, the RIAA and others to distort intellectual property law.

 

Nobody here is condoning outright counterfeiting of current, legally protected models. But, once your design rights have expired, elements of that design can be copied legally.

If that were not so, then only Waterman would be making pens, only Benz would be making cars, only Bayer would be making Aspirin and only J.Herbin would be making inks.

[TSherbs]

 

The point is that companies like Jinhao, Hero, Kaigelu and the like have not been infringing on anybody's intellectual rights. The protection afforded to Parker, Lamy and Mont Blanc has expired when these companies make pens that are similar, but not identical, to the original. What these companies do is neither immoral nor illegal, as I said earlier. You do not own your intellectual property in perpetuity, regardless of the attempts by Sony, BMG, Disney, the RIAA and others to distort intellectual property law.

 

Nobody here is condoning outright counterfeiting of current, legally protected models. But, once your design rights have expired, elements of that design can be copied legally.

If that were not so, then only Waterman would be making pens, only Benz would be making cars, only Bayer would be making Aspirin and only J.Herbin would be making inks.

sounds right

[Sailor Kenshin]

My Hero pen says "HERO" on it in BIG letters. My Kaigelu 356 says--get this--"Kaigelu 356" on it! I assume that anyone can make a yellow wooden pencil with a pink eraser on the end, right? Even the Chinese can, too?

Need Like Button.

[dashingmaverick]

Gee, and I thought this thread had 'flamed out' months ago!

 

I realize we all have different points of view. What is truly disturbing to me however is just how many people seem only concerned with the impact to their pocket. These folk seem to be totally willing and able to ignore the concept of intellectual property rights. I mean, if budget is your main concern, then buy a product at the budget price without impinging on property rights.

 

Yup, I'm sure I just ignited an entirely new set of flames! Don't care. Theft is theft.

It must be pretty great to live in a world where money is of no concern. The prestige and intellectual property rights of that new Mont Blanc pen is gonna pay my bills, right? Or maybe I buy a Baoer 79 for $5, some bottles of ink, a couple Rhodia pads, and have plenty of cash left over to pay my debts, feed my family, and enjoy a fun new hobby.

[Cryptos]

 

It must be pretty great to live in a world where money is of no concern. The prestige and intellectual property rights of that new Mont Blanc pen is gonna pay my bills, right? Or maybe I buy a Baoer 79 for $5, some bottles of ink, a couple Rhodia pads, and have plenty of cash left over to pay my debts, feed my family, and enjoy a fun new hobby.

 

Pfft! It's people like you who should be kept away from any and all writing instruments. Fountain pens are for the privileged and worthy, dontcherknow, and only properly branded pens at that.

 

Actually, on my much earlier post (regarding the OP) I did say that the smell of an agenda was in the air. Perhaps I should have drawled "That's a mighty tall horse yer ridin' there, fella".

[Moshe ben David]

 

The point is that companies like Jinhao, Hero, Kaigelu and the like have not been infringing on anybody's intellectual rights. The protection afforded to Parker, Lamy and Mont Blanc has expired when these companies make pens that are similar, but not identical, to the original. What these companies do is neither immoral nor illegal, as I said earlier. You do not own your intellectual property in perpetuity, regardless of the attempts by Sony, BMG, Disney, the RIAA and others to distort intellectual property law.

 

Nobody here is condoning outright counterfeiting of current, legally protected models. But, once your design rights have expired, elements of that design can be copied legally.

If that were not so, then only Waterman would be making pens, only Benz would be making cars, only Bayer would be making Aspirin and only J.Herbin would be making inks.

 

You miss a key point. The product in general is generic. Certain elements -- e.g., the 'arrow' pen clip design used by Parker are part of its brand identity. Copying that to the last detail is an infringement. If these companies used a generic pen clip (as an example) they then would not be infringing.

[Moshe ben David]

It must be pretty great to live in a world where money is of no concern. The prestige and intellectual property rights of that new Mont Blanc pen is gonna pay my bills, right? Or maybe I buy a Baoer 79 for $5, some bottles of ink, a couple Rhodia pads, and have plenty of cash left over to pay my debts, feed my family, and enjoy a fun new hobby.

 

Read what I wrote again. I specifically addressed buying a pen that meets your budget -- just get something generic. But if you want to have something that has the look of a new Mont Blanc, then pay for a Mont Blanc, not a fake.

 

Would you also endorse buying an authorized copy of a CD or a DVD? How about an unauthorized photocopy of a book on the NY Times Best Seller list? Would you endorse buying an illicit copy of a piece of software? Just because any of the authorized products don't meet your budget?

 

Same issue. Theft is theft.

[Moshe ben David]

 

Pfft! It's people like you who should be kept away from any and all writing instruments. Fountain pens are for the privileged and worthy, dontcherknow, and only properly branded pens at that.

 

Actually, on my much earlier post (regarding the OP) I did say that the smell of an agenda was in the air. Perhaps I should have drawled "That's a mighty tall horse yer ridin' there, fella".

 

As a matter of fact, I am the OP. Yes I have an agenda -- to stop condoning the theft of intellectual property rights and the degradation of brand images. Nothing wrong with competition. Nothing wrong having products available across the entire range of prices the public is willing and able to pay for. Just don't explicitly (through use of a brand name without authorization) or implicitly (through the use of design elements which constitute brand identification) convince the buyers they can pay a fraction of the price and get something others will think is the prestige brand.

 

It is one thing to add fins to a car in a generic sense. It would be totally different to make the dimensions, the added chrome, etc., so I identical that they would appear to be the same fin. Same for the products we all love -- fountain pens.

[Cryptos]

When you can categorically state that there is nothing in your life that you endorse that has not been blatantly copied from something else... then I'll concede your point.

 

Actually, now that I come to think of it, you used some of the same words I did, in the exact same order too. What a copycat!

 

Anyway, joking aside, as I mentioned (and others did too) these copies - exact though they may well come close to being - have no impact on sales of originals at all. The people who cannot afford the originals, cannot afford the originals! Even if you ban the sales of blatant design copies, you haven't changed things one tiny little jot. Those people will still not be able to afford the originals.

 

I've got a Jinhao 599. I looked at and had a go with a Lamy Safari and I thought it was a bit (bleep). So, I decided I am not paying NZ$50 for one. The 599 cost, well, $5.99 (actually nothing as it was a gift from a friend). Do I like it any better than the Lamy? Actually, yes I do. It's slightly smaller. The plastic feels better to me. The section angles are more forgiving for my hand position. It takes international cartridges. And the nib is smoother than the Safari I tried. All in all the 599 is, IMHO, a better pen on performance AND price. Would I buy a 599? Probably not as it is only an interest piece. Then again I wouldn't buy a Lamy either, so that company is disadvantaged not a bit.

 

So, Moshe ben David, I am open to persuasive attempts but I feel your premise has no weight, and I seriously wonder what is the real purpose of this thread. Who is actually harmed by this design copying? You?

[Nonsensical]

 

Read what I wrote again. I specifically addressed buying a pen that meets your budget -- just get something generic. But if you want to have something that has the look of a new Mont Blanc, then pay for a Mont Blanc, not a fake.

 

Would you also endorse buying an authorized copy of a CD or a DVD? How about an unauthorized photocopy of a book on the NY Times Best Seller list? Would you endorse buying an illicit copy of a piece of software? Just because any of the authorized products don't meet your budget?

 

Same issue. Theft is theft.

Since you seem to have missed my previous post:

 

While there are counterfeit issues in China - imitation of the sort you are highlighting is not the real issue.

AFAIK, Lamy, Parker or any other mentioned "copies" in this thread have been around for longer than 20 years. Assuming that they did apply for exclusive design rights and received them, they have already expired. They no longer hold any legal or equitable Intellectual Property rights over a design. Hence any IP arguments are moot.

Unlike trademarks - which can be continually renewed, design rights and patents have a limited time period, which allows the designer to fully exploit their market monopoly over said designs and technologies/methods. After this time period has expired, the design is free to be used by anyone. Assuming that the design is such that it appeals to the masses, or has some sort of advantage over other designs, why would people not copy it? (Refer to the "Lego" case for more details regarding the limitations of design rights and associated controversies).

Since it isn't illegal from an IP aspect, then what about fraud? There appears to be no dishonest or fraudulent sort of misrepresentation, at least with regards to genuine Hero 616 pens and the new "Safari clones". They're marketed as Hero pens, or Jinhao pens. Yes, the design is very similar, but there's no fraud - the packaging clearly states that the pen is a Hero pen, the pen itself is also marked with the word Hero. No reasonable person would, unless they were being extremely careless (in which case, you can't really blame the manufacturer) ever mistake the pen for being a Lamy Safari.

As for whether this goes against what is "morally correct", I think this particular argument is weak at best. We buy clothes that are based off designs of more expensive "branded" counterparts, and see nothing wrong with that. Some are even blatant copies of the original, which may cost as much as 10x as much. So why is that acceptable, but not "copied designs" for fountain pens? In the case of clothes, the original designer doesn't even get a 20 year monopoly!

The real issue here is, and should be the counterfeiting of goods. There are fake brand name bags, watches, even counterfeit fountain pens (Montblanc) being sold in and exported out of China. Let's not drown out the real problem by nitpicking about something that is neither illegal nor morally reprehensible.

[ancalagon]

Theft is theft.

Theft is theft, but what you're talking about is not theft. You're using an emotionally charged word incorrectly to push your agenda.

 

Do you know what theft is? I do. I've had the back wheels stolen from my car. That's theft. What you're talking about is the copying of design elements in a pen, not theft.

[ancalagon]

 

Because if I just wanted a tool to make marks on paper, I'd go down to Staples and get a rollerball for a tenth cost of even a Chinese knockoff fountain pen. This is done for more than mere utility.

Cheap rollerballs are not generally a tenth the price of a cheap Chinese fountain pen. A pack of 10 Hero 616s is in the same ballpark as a pack of 10 rollerballs.

 

When I buy a Chinese fp, cheap or not, knockoff or not, I'm doing it for more than mere utility -- in the same way as when I buy a non-Chinese pen.

[TSherbs]

 

You miss a key point. The product in general is generic. Certain elements -- e.g., the 'arrow' pen clip design used by Parker are part of its brand identity. Copying that to the last detail is an infringement....

No, this is not an infringement. See my note above about all the yellow pencils made in the world with pink erasers. Or all the rubber tires made around the planet that are black and have things called treads on them. and motors with round parts called cylinders.

[TSherbs]

 

As a matter of fact, I am the OP. Yes I have an agenda -- to stop condoning the theft of intellectual property rights...

How does one steal a "right"? The "right" is legit and legal and inscribed in international law, or it is not. No one is stealing a "right," here.

 

 

and the degradation of brand images.

Brand images inevitably and always degrade. This is like wishing we did not age and die. You can wish for this all you want, but you aren't going to get what you wish for, no no law or ethic protects against the decay of the value of a brand. I would even argue that a "brand" is not worth anything intrinsically except what the consumer grants it, and consumers are free to grant or retract this value any time they please for any reason whatsoever.

[FountainPenC]

As far as a first fountainpen goes, people are probably better off with a Varsity or a Big Disposable - there's enough ink in there to get you hooked on Fountain pens before you have to think about what you're doing.

 

I have a bunch of Chinese pens, some of which I like better than others. I'm sure no one in their right minds would mistake them for a big-name pen, any of them. Some of them work better for me than others, some are too heavy for my hand (My hand's problem, not the pen's) for some reason some of them have something in the cap that is loose and slides around - but none was over ten dollars.

 

I've learned a lot about what I do and don't like by using them, and I'm giving some to my nieces for Christmas stocking gifts. If they don't like them, no particular loss. If they do like them, that's another three Fountain pen fans. And they don't use proprietary cartridges. (I'm not going to make them dangerous by giving them bottled ink - I want the girls to be allowed to use them.)

 

T

i couldn't agree more... i usually buy my nephews some disposable or some pilot pens that are not too expensive like the pilot mr for gifts and hopefully they get hook aswell in using fountain pens more

 

inregards with the topic, i try to avoid getting some chinese pens. i have a friend who works in china and told me a lot of replica fountain pens are being made there. the quality is the big issue, although they write well but it easily breaks. it's probably the materials that are used IMO.

[dashingmaverick]

Theft is theft.

You caught me! You caught the Tater!