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Chinese Pens -- Too Many Look Like Counterfeits!

fakes counterfeits chinese pens indian pens

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168 replies to this topic

#21 sitnstew

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 22:21

I only have a problem with it if the pen is actually being advertised as the higher end brand when it isn't one. Mimicking the design of a pen doesn't bother me at all, especially when some of the copies are arguably very similar in quality at a much much lower price. I bought a Baoer 79 which is a fairly close clone of a MB Starwalker. I paid $2.82 for my Baoer and it writes beautifully. A MB starwalker retails for around $300. In the luxury brand market I figure that people who are especially concerned about the luxury aspect of the item will continue to purchase MB while those who just want a good looking pen that writes well will find the Baoer sufficient. I doubt the consumers of these 2 products intersect very often. One day I'll be able to afford a real MB but time will tell if I think the name justifies the price.


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#22 zchen

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 22:41

so when are people going to rise up against the Germans and Japanese for copying that Sheaffer Balance torpedo shape?

 

Realistically, the fountain pen market ain't that big any more in China, most students now use rollerballs, people with higher income rather buy established foreign brands with recognition (MB etc), or they buy those gaudy looking Duke/Jinhao(Jinhao actually may come from the Hero factory) etc for gift giving. Last I read Hero was having real problems just getting by (for $ they had sold out their name to other factories like the Lishui one that came out with the Safari copy); there's no money being used for innovation, and no one in management really cares about that either(and really spending all that $ on new tooling for an uncertain market?) At least in 2013 there's been some slight improvement in terms of quality control on older models like the 100, but unless some one with vision and financial backing takes over, I really don't see things changing.


Edited by zchen, 08 December 2013 - 23:29.


#23 sanyalsoumitra

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 00:32

Thanks for this thread. I am a collector of Chinese and Indian low cost pens and I do sometimes make kit pens. I feel this way : Very simply put, a buyer looks for two things in a commodity

a) the physical shape , form factor, material feel -all the physical aspects
b)the prestige aspects like the originality, the material purity and the ownership pride aspect icluding how much is the money cost. A

 

All material things have come to Asia from the western countries, starting with the original, until local collaborative technology could develop. This collaborative technology branched into stronger Asian brands, and one sub-branch went to fakes and counterfiets.

 

But to an Asian mind the acceptance of a copycat technology comes much easy primarily due to reason of poverty. I my city, though there are thousand collectors who would take pride in owning a Montblanc Meisterstuck 149 original for USD 400, there are a million fountain pen users [ including the vast student community] for whom a $12 Baoer 79 or a $28 Crocodile 232 itself would be a very expensive pen- feel and functionality difference may be no more than 15%!

 

In Kolkata a vintage Parker51 gold cap cost Rs 5000/-[ about $85]  but a WningSung 613 based on the same pen cost rs 60/- [ Hero 616 are not available nowadays,   I buy mine from e-bay]. In fact the student community goes for the Gel pens costing between Rs 3.0 to Rs 30, functionally far superior to the FP's.

Come to the Indian made higher end pens, most people can not afford a $ 70 ebonite pen including collectors like us. indian made Parker Urban [ with a crude local converter and steel nib ] sells for Rs 1500/-[about usd 23] while the $45/- variant from Greece/ Malaysia are no better- an these are licenced makes.  

 

The major non US-Europe user/collector of fountain pens are from China and india, and as i visit China also, i may say that the domestic sale volume is much much more than what is sold through e-bay/ amazon etc.

 

But affluent collectors from these countries would always  choose to buy the original expensive ones for the prestige factor- but these two are mutually exclusive domains.

Back to my mention of pen making- let me tell you that, In India pen-kits per se' are not available for sale. So either one would need to make a kit-less pen or buy a kit from US/UK/Canada sites.

 

But the amusing part is, none of the kits sold at these portals are actually made in these contries. These are made in Taiwan and South China. And funnier still, the sub-components of these kits like tubes/clips/cap bands etc - a large volume is made in small shack in India and bulk supplied to china. This is one area where the retailers prefer not to speak up.

So, I feel all aspects would continue to stay, trade flow and originalty mixing, some faking/counterfitting as well as the sensitivity about the original stuff. Pen is a simple technology after all. And there are more need based users than collectors.



#24 Seele

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 00:46

Moshe,

 

I fear you have a number of separate issues all rolled into the same lump, so it is difficult to see them separately and make some sense out of the whole lot.

 

During the era prior to the establishment of the PRC, there were already a number of fountain pen makers in China, their products largely followed the mainstream styling cues, just like most other makers internationally; some of them had to purchase parts from overseas and that had some effect on the external styling, but at the same time, they had to follow the visual cues to make their products attractive: you can be really creative and make a cellphone that resembles a football exactly and see how many you can sell.

 

Here, no counterfeits at this stage.

 

With the establishment of the PRC, the formerly independent makers gradually became nationalized, and they became part of the centralized planned economy machine. Certainly, the companies were individually managed but they all had to follow the guidelines and orders from the industries administrations: to achieve rationalization and cost-reduction, extensive model and design sharing was the standard practice. Huafu Pens - later trading as Hero Pens - developed the hooded-nib 100, and further simplified it to facilitate quantity production as the 616 and many other variants, and their work in this area made it favourable for the other firms to adopt the designs. In fact, when Tianjin was ordered to have its own pen industry, a team from Hero was ordered to go there to establish Rainbow Pens, who made pens in the same hooded-nib styles but with variations enough to avoid parts interchangeability.

 

So, here there is no counterfeit: just a sensible way for a planned economy to operate.

 

After China "opened up", the rest of the world became a market for getting real money, just as the outside world sees China as a place where products can be built. So there are two types of ostensibly "counterfeits".

 

First type is counterfeits of established, mass-produced products originally from the planned economy period. As the tools have already been well amortized they can be made at low prices, and this low price still render them attractive. This then entices unscrupulous types - mainly working out of small towns on the east coast - to make counterfeits: even if each unit is a few cents cheaper than the original, they're still able to turn a profit. The main victim of these fraudsters is Hero, whose 100, 616, 329 etc all have been faked extensively: this greatly impacted the reputation of Hero. Also worth mentioning is Wing Sung which has ceased production some years ago but counterfeit 612 are common.

 

The second type of counterfeit would be those meant to resemble pricey pens such as Montblanc - for example - with full Montblanc markings, with the aim to deceive. These would be the most obvious type of counterfeits. However, do consider this point: manufacturers of such counterfeits could very well apply their own brand names on some examples so as to avoid being a counterfeit: "It does not say Montblanc on this pen, so it is not meant to pass itself off as one"; if there is an absence of the Montblanc name and trademarks it could well be legit too.

 

It's a long post, but I hope this makes some sense.


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#25 proton007

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 03:22

I don't think anyone here is saying that the Chinese made pens are better than the originals.

 

However, they're exceptionally good value at their price point.

You can't buy a pen from any American manufacturer in the sub $5 range, but you can get a Hero 336 for much less. Looks like a Parker 51, works like one, and hasn't given me any trouble so far. If something goes wrong the price makes it easy to just get a new one.

Economics would dictate that its impossible for the Americans and Europeans to deliver a quality pen at that price point. Their costs are too high.

 

I would argue that the void left by the American/European companies is being filled in by these Chinese pens. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'd happily recommend a Hero to kids and newbies.

 

In addition, I'd also add that the expensive pens aren't completely free of problems either. A misbehaving nib on a $2 pen or a $200 pen is equally frustrating, but the $2 pen makes it much easier to get rid of that frustration.


Edited by proton007, 09 December 2013 - 03:28.

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#26 sanyalsoumitra

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 13:31

Moshe,

 

I fear you have a number of separate issues all rolled into the same lump, so it is difficult to see them separately and make some sense out of the whole lot.

 

During the era prior to the establishment of the PRC, there were already a number of fountain pen makers in China, their products largely followed the mainstream styling cues, just like most other makers internationally; some of them had to purchase parts from overseas and that had some effect on the external styling, but at the same time, they had to follow the visual cues to make their products attractive: you can be really creative and make a cellphone that resembles a football exactly and see how many you can sell.

 

Here, no counterfeits at this stage.

 

With the establishment of the PRC, the formerly independent makers gradually became nationalized, and they became part of the centralized planned economy machine. Certainly, the companies were individually managed but they all had to follow the guidelines and orders from the industries administrations: to achieve rationalization and cost-reduction, extensive model and design sharing was the standard practice. Huafu Pens - later trading as Hero Pens - developed the hooded-nib 100, and further simplified it to facilitate quantity production as the 616 and many other variants, and their work in this area made it favourable for the other firms to adopt the designs. In fact, when Tianjin was ordered to have its own pen industry, a team from Hero was ordered to go there to establish Rainbow Pens, who made pens in the same hooded-nib styles but with variations enough to avoid parts interchangeability.

 

So, here there is no counterfeit: just a sensible way for a planned economy to operate.

 

After China "opened up", the rest of the world became a market for getting real money, just as the outside world sees China as a place where products can be built. So there are two types of ostensibly "counterfeits".

 

First type is counterfeits of established, mass-produced products originally from the planned economy period. As the tools have already been well amortized they can be made at low prices, and this low price still render them attractive. This then entices unscrupulous types - mainly working out of small towns on the east coast - to make counterfeits: even if each unit is a few cents cheaper than the original, they're still able to turn a profit. The main victim of these fraudsters is Hero, whose 100, 616, 329 etc all have been faked extensively: this greatly impacted the reputation of Hero. Also worth mentioning is Wing Sung which has ceased production some years ago but counterfeit 612 are common.

 

The second type of counterfeit would be those meant to resemble pricey pens such as Montblanc - for example - with full Montblanc markings, with the aim to deceive. These would be the most obvious type of counterfeits. However, do consider this point: manufacturers of such counterfeits could very well apply their own brand names on some examples so as to avoid being a counterfeit: "It does not say Montblanc on this pen, so it is not meant to pass itself off as one"; if there is an absence of the Montblanc name and trademarks it could well be legit too.

 

It's a long post, but I hope this makes some sense.

This is very informative- thanks for posting. Helps to understand the scenario much better. With your permission I would keep a  copy of this text for my own reference. Thank you again.



#27 85AKbN

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 15:27

I vote with my wallet so they won't get one cent from me.



#28 Pickwick

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 16:09

This is very informative- thanks for posting. Helps to understand the scenario much better. With your permission I would keep a  copy of this text for my own reference. Thank you again.

Thank goodness that we have members who research before posting, giving us a clearer picture as to what is exactly happening. Much appreciated.


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#29 WirsPlm

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 16:58

Wow, big thank yous to the members who researched and put all the interesting stuff about making FPs in China, I'm definitely going to save that information.

I agree with earlier posters that there's a clear distinction between homages or look-alikes that don't pretend to be more than they are and pens that are deliberate counterfeits (and I include the people who counterfeit other Chinese pens with those who counterfeit Montblanc, since they're committing the same sin it's just a matter of degree). The people who are making pens that look similar or that share features, particularly if the pen is out of patent protection like the Parker 51, are legitimately filling demand (if Parker wanted the money that could be had from a modern hooded-nib pen, they'd make one, but they apparently don't want that money). The people who make deliberate counterfeits are committing fraud. I'm fine with the first and think the second should be prosecuted.

Edited by WirsPlm, 09 December 2013 - 17:10.


#30 Seele

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 23:50

If I am not greatly mistaken, the original model of the Hero 100, known as "100 Hero" by Huafu Pens, came out in 1955; it was re-engineered to become the better-known "Hero 100" in 1962. This overlaps the production run of the Parker 51 (1941-1972), hence many people accused Huafu/Hero of ripping off the 51, but the situation is more complicated.

 

When the PRC was founded in 1949, it certainly had very few friends, the USSR was supposedly an ally but after the fall of Stalin they decided to hate each other: officially Stalin is still revered in China. As they considered everyone else in the free world as enemy and deserved no respect, they had to learn to be self-reliant. One example was the Great Leap Forward campaign which caused more problems than before it started, and the 100 Hero was a child of this period. Huafu was trying to assert their prowness as a world-class pen maker and to this end, they picked the most technically advanced pen - the 51 - and tried to trump it. In fact there's a documentary film made at the time, "Hero: Surpassing the Parker" which became quite popular: beating the reviled Americans was a flag-waving morale booster at the time.

 

In other words, they wanted to ride into town and shoot the sheriff.

 

So, Huafu/Hero was not "ripping off" the Parker 51, and most certainly was not counterfeiting it for commercial/financial gains. It was a product of a specific time and social condition, which steered the industry of pretty much an entire country towards a specific direction.


Edited by Seele, 09 December 2013 - 23:53.

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#31 Sasha Royale

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 00:57

PRC laws are not particularly respectful of copyrights, nor are they enforced.  Most of the PRC manufactures make copies, and may include trademarked features.  However, appearance notwithstanding, it is only counterfiet, if represented as the original item. 


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#32 harlequin-RIH

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:18

so when are people going to rise up against the Germans and Japanese for copying that Sheaffer Balance torpedo shape?

 

<snip>

 

+1 to this.  If someone wants to get on a high horse about situations like the Hero 359 Summer Color (Safari clone), I don't see any way that the simple fact that almost EVERY modern torpedo shaped fountain pen was ripped off from Sheaffer wouldn't bother them the same amount.  It couldn't possibly be a hypocritical argument...



#33 Sandy Fry

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 04:04

I really don't see what the fuss is about.

 

I would rather write with a Chinese fountain pen than with ANY roller/ballpoint pen. The Chinese pens are affordable, generally pretty well made and some of them are great writers straight out of the box.

 

Each to their own.

 

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#34 inkstainedruth

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:08

In addition, I'd also add that the expensive pens aren't completely free of problems either. A misbehaving nib on a $2 pen or a $200 pen is equally frustrating, but the $2 pen makes it much easier to get rid of that frustration.

+1 on that.

I have several Chinese pens.  All of them are probably in the $2-$5 US range.  There are certainly differences in quality even between them (and even in the same brand).   Three I bought and two were being given away and I said "sure, I'll take one."

Here's my experience (note that all of these are squeeze fillers -- I won't say aerometric fillers, because I don't know if they've really copied the Parker 51 "under the hood" part or not):

1) Guanleming 2001 Demonstrator.  Cost: $5.  Some sort of plastic.  It felt cheap, it looked cheap, it was probably a (sort of) Parker 51 clone, with a hooded nib.  It made a great pen for using Noodler's Bay State Blue in, until I had trouble prying the clip loose from an elastic band in a pen case and snapped the top part of the cap off (leaving the threaded section of that part inside the rest of the cap).  But for five bucks -- eh, I'll live.  And if my husband's friends get their 3D printer working, maybe we can figure out how to replicate the part.

2) Guanleming #193 Calligraphy pen.  Cost: $5.  Some kind of plastic that gives the feel of celluloid (like in Esterbrook pens).  Sort of cheap feeling, but not bad looking.  Mostly bought it for the fude nib.  Don't use it much, but it's fun to play with the nib (makes my printing look kinda cool without actually trying to do calligraphy with it). 

3) Guanleming #978 Accountant.  Cost: $5.  This actually is a pretty nice little pen for the money, because the metal body gives it a bit of heft and weight that the other Guanleming pens I have don't.  Is the nib as nice as on a more expensive pen?  Probably not, since it's a nail.  But it writes well enough.

4) Wing Sung #237.  Being given away by someone, so not sure of the original cost I think this is probably about a $5-10 pen.  It's got a Triumph style nib, like on my Shaeffer Snorkels (although not of course with the feeder tub in the feed :rolleyes:).  But while it's obviously not a $30+ pen, it writes okay and is nice looking, and (like the #978) feels better made than the cost would suggest.

5) Hero 616.  Or possibly one of the "fake" 616s....  Again, this was being given away, probably a $2 pen (someone order a pack of these off Ebay and was handing them out at a pen club meeting.  Okay.  This, being not a clear plastic pen, does look more like a 51.  Superficially, anyway.  Unlike the Guanleming Accountant, this definitely reeks of cheap.  No real resemblance to the quality of a 51.  It feels like a $2 pen and acts as if it were one, and the nib is pretty scratchy.  But hey, it's less expensive than a Pilot Varsity disposable pen.

OTOH -- none of these pens resemble the pens they're styled like, other than superficially.  No one with half a brain cell would mistake a Hero 616 for a "real" 51 -- even if they *weren't* already all marked by the manufacturers in Chinese.

And yeah, I'm as much against pirated items being sold as the real thing as much as the next person.  But for me at least, this isn't what happened.

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#35 Moshe ben David

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:33

+1 to Pickwick.  Well said. If Chinese pens bother you, don't buy them. It doesn't seem to bother Parker, there's no suit I am aware of. BTW... not even in the fossil records has there been a wolverine in Michigan. I've no idea where my state got that notion.

 

re: Wolverines.  As you point out, their range (if any) in Michigan is and has been a matter of dispute; I just did a quick Google and there have been some recent sightings in the thumb area; I was always under the impression that the UP was part of their historic range.  But that was only my impression.


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#36 Moshe ben David

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:40

Just wanting to chime in here but when you say:

 

 

Are we not aware that we are buying a Chinese pen or a Chinese pen which incorporates elements from other manufactures?

 

When I bought a Hero 616, I knew it was a Hero 616 and definitely not a Parker 51. I know what a Parker 51 is, I've got one.  I know that the Jinhao 159 looks similar to the MB 149, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking that it is one. But I suppose I do somewhat agree with you on these points, I dislike how Hero or some subset of Hero is manufacturing their own 'Safari'. 

 

But of course that manufactures in the States have also copied each other. I don't quite recall exact models but I think Waterman had a pen on offer which had a semi-hooded nib designed to be similar to the popular 51. There's plenty of others, I'm sure of it. Would you consider a pen made with a Waterman-shaped clip, a conical cap shaped like a Cross pen and a Parker barrel to be legitimate on its own?  

Edit: Oh, a good example is all of those Parker Big Red clones... 

 

However, I sincerely believe that you discredit the entire Chinese pen industry of any semblance of originality. I'm sure there's models on offer that have a largely unique design.

I'm not so sure about the legitimacy of this claim that I'm going to make, but the Chinese fountain pen market is specially targeted to the Chinese audience. That is, we as enthusiasts are simply not their target and that our impact on their sales are ultimately miniscule. 

 

 

copying an original that is no longer available except as vintage or NOS does not bother me at all. the Parker pen company still exists and still makes pens, but it has not made nor sold the model 51 in i don't even know how many years; so long as there's some way to tell that the Hero 616's or 110's were not, in fact, made by Parker just yesterday --- so long as there's some way to distinguish them from an outright forgery --- it matters not to me how much they superficially resemble the original. if i want a real Parker 51, i might buy it, but whether i do that or buy the Chinese copy i can't deprive Parker pens of any sales revenue; they no longer sell that which i want to buy.

 

copying an original that's still on the market is a whole other issue, for me. Hero's knockoff of the Safari rubs me the wrong way; that's direct competition in a way that would be an insult if the corporations involved were natural persons. Lamy's still selling that, and Hero could darn well make something equally as good that wasn't a lookalike.

 

Thanks for bringing up the 'knockoff' of the Safari.  In this case it is not only the overall shape of the pen and the clip; even the font and positioning of the pen name is identical to the Lamy Safari.  To me it is clearly an out and out copy intended to ride the marketing coat tail of the Lamy!


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#37 Moshe ben David

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:51

Moshe,

 

I fear you have a number of separate issues all rolled into the same lump, so it is difficult to see them separately and make some sense out of the whole lot.

 

During the era prior to the establishment of the PRC, there were already a number of fountain pen makers in China, their products largely followed the mainstream styling cues, just like most other makers internationally; some of them had to purchase parts from overseas and that had some effect on the external styling, but at the same time, they had to follow the visual cues to make their products attractive: you can be really creative and make a cellphone that resembles a football exactly and see how many you can sell.

 

Here, no counterfeits at this stage.

 

With the establishment of the PRC, the formerly independent makers gradually became nationalized, and they became part of the centralized planned economy machine. Certainly, the companies were individually managed but they all had to follow the guidelines and orders from the industries administrations: to achieve rationalization and cost-reduction, extensive model and design sharing was the standard practice. Huafu Pens - later trading as Hero Pens - developed the hooded-nib 100, and further simplified it to facilitate quantity production as the 616 and many other variants, and their work in this area made it favourable for the other firms to adopt the designs. In fact, when Tianjin was ordered to have its own pen industry, a team from Hero was ordered to go there to establish Rainbow Pens, who made pens in the same hooded-nib styles but with variations enough to avoid parts interchangeability.

 

So, here there is no counterfeit: just a sensible way for a planned economy to operate.

 

After China "opened up", the rest of the world became a market for getting real money, just as the outside world sees China as a place where products can be built. So there are two types of ostensibly "counterfeits".

 

First type is counterfeits of established, mass-produced products originally from the planned economy period. As the tools have already been well amortized they can be made at low prices, and this low price still render them attractive. This then entices unscrupulous types - mainly working out of small towns on the east coast - to make counterfeits: even if each unit is a few cents cheaper than the original, they're still able to turn a profit. The main victim of these fraudsters is Hero, whose 100, 616, 329 etc all have been faked extensively: this greatly impacted the reputation of Hero. Also worth mentioning is Wing Sung which has ceased production some years ago but counterfeit 612 are common.

 

The second type of counterfeit would be those meant to resemble pricey pens such as Montblanc - for example - with full Montblanc markings, with the aim to deceive. These would be the most obvious type of counterfeits. However, do consider this point: manufacturers of such counterfeits could very well apply their own brand names on some examples so as to avoid being a counterfeit: "It does not say Montblanc on this pen, so it is not meant to pass itself off as one"; if there is an absence of the Montblanc name and trademarks it could well be legit too.

 

It's a long post, but I hope this makes some sense.

 

Seele - you have summarized the history very well.  I knew the outlines although not with all the detail you've been able to add.  Thank you for sharing this with all of us.

 

My main issue is that the manufacture is still using the components of the design which are essentially the trademarks -- design of the pen clip being one, which is why I cited the Parker and Waterman clips.  Whether due to inertia  of history or lack of scruples frankly I don't care.  I also consider where a design element (like the clip) is part of the brand image, there is no difference between using it and marking the name of the pen spelled out .  In fact quite recently in this forum there was a request for pen identification -- the pen was identified as a fake Montblanc with a fake 'snowcap' on the pen cap.


Moshe ben David

 

"Behold, He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps!"


#38 Moshe ben David

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 05:52

I found this quotation from John Ruskin 1819-1900

 

There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider the price alone are that persons lawful prey It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money - that's all.

 

When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it is bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done.

 

If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.

 

I agree with your statements


Moshe ben David

 

"Behold, He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps!"


#39 Moshe ben David

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:16

Whew!  Well -- I did say I'd probably rile up some folks.

 

In an attempt to clarify my own thinking for y'all.  I'm not focused on things like the hooded nib or the barrel shape.  As several have pointed out, these designs have been widely copied by various manufacturers from each other over the years.  Preventing this would be nigh on impossible.  I'm not an attorney, but I suspect that even enforcing patents on the hooded nib would be very difficult.  Just an opinion.

 

My main issue was and is with the use of design elements which are non-verbal expressions of a brand's trademark.  My initial examples were the 'arrow clip' of Parker; and (forgive me the awkward description) the 'slotted' Waterman clip.  Based on some of the other examples brought up, I'd include the very distiinctive wire clip of the Lamy Safari, the Lamy name and font molded into the barrel (yes, I know the Hero isn't labelled Safari but does position its brand name in the identical font and position as Lamy does), and the snow cap trademark of Montblanc.  Copying these trademarks is not necessary to the function of the Chinese pens; but in one way or another would contribute towards sales and marketing.  And dilutes the brand presence of the originals.

 

Several respondents did raise the point of whether or not I recognized that not all manufacturers in China were capable of putting out good quality product, as well as their ability to put out a good quality original product.  

 

Emphatically YES.  I've worked out there.  Manufacturing and even design capability have progressed hugely!  My issues are not with the engineers and designers.  

 

My issues are with the managments who are still choosing to copy (whether for their domestic markets or export or both) rather than standing on their own two feet.  Lenovo computers are an example of a Chinese company that puts out a good solid product -- and does so under its own name.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

btw -- I have also found a fair bit of discussion on this same issue in the forum for Far East region; several posts there offer more detail on the history of how the Chinese pen industry has come to what it is today.  Interesting reading for anyone interested....

 

Thanks to all for a lively thread!


Moshe ben David

 

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#40 lovemy51

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    legal? of course... and with all my papers. FP-friendly, mostly

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:02

my Kaigelu 356 writes better than my Sonnet :wacko: .

 

i like the design... i really don't care who came up with it first... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS.

Moshe, you keep mentioning that some people might get "riled up"... was this you intention?


Edited by lovemy51, 10 December 2013 - 09:15.






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