Have Parker Nibs Changed In Size?

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my very first post. I apologize if i ever make horrible grammatical mistakes, English is not my first language (i'm French).

 

I've been reading topics on the FPN for several years but only decided to register today as i've just received my first vintage pen and i have a few questions about it.

 

I checked the pen and all "fake guides" out there and i do think mine is authentic. However, the nib makes me question my conclusion.

 

It's a medium nib (18K/Rhodium) from a pen that - i believe - was made in 2002 (it's marked "A.").

 

The problem is... i find this nib to write much smaller than a newer Sonnet (23K plated) that i own that has a medium nib too.

Here's a pic - i'm using the same ink in both:

 

So, i was wondering if there were variations in Parker Sonnet nibs sizes? Or is it an indication that my pen is counterfeit?

 

I also find that the nib on the vintage Sonnet is a little bit scratchy on paper compared to my newer one.

 

Thank you for your help!

Edited November 21, 2013 by Amy_likes_Sonnet

[ac12]

The ink lines look close enough that I would say both are Mediums.

Manufacturing tolerance is such that a Medium might have a tip width of say 0.030 inch +/- 0.005 inch, so 0.0295 to 0.035 inch.

Also different inks can cause a pen to write with a different width ink line. To compare you must use the SAME ink.

Visually the darker ink will look wider, even if it is exactly the same width.

 

If the tip of the nib is out of alignment, you will get scratchiness.

Note that scratchiness due to tip out of alignment is normally in ONE direction.

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

The ink lines look close enough that I would say both are Mediums.

Manufacturing tolerance is such that a Medium might have a tip width of say 0.030 inch +/- 0.005 inch, so 0.0295 to 0.035 inch.

Also different inks can cause a pen to write with a different width ink line. To compare you must use the SAME ink.

Visually the darker ink will look wider, even if it is exactly the same width.

 

If the tip of the nib is out of alignment, you will get scratchiness.

Note that scratchiness due to tip out of alignment is normally in ONE direction.

 

Thank you for your input!

 

I did use the same ink, and wrote both lines at the exact same moment. That is why i'm wondering why the outcome is so different. The first line is smaller IRL, it doesn't show up that much on a such a close-up picture though.

[View from the Loft]

If you wrote both lines using the same ink, I think that the older Sonnet has drier flow (it puts less ink on the paper) than the newer pen. This would explain why the line it makes looks narrower than the newer one.

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

If you wrote both lines using the same ink, I think that the older Sonnet has drier flow (it puts less ink on the paper) than the newer pen. This would explain why the line it makes looks narrower than the newer one.

 

Thank you! Yes, i used the same ink. I flushed it and let it dry before i used the pen though, i'll try to look for more solutions to fix a dry flow, in case it is indeed still dry.

[ac12]

My quick ink fix for a dry pen is to switch to Waterman ink.

My usual is Cross/Pelikan ink.

 

After that it required tweaking of the nib to increase the ink flow.

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

My quick ink fix for a dry pen is to switch to Waterman ink.

My usual is Cross/Pelikan ink.

 

After that it required tweaking of the nib to increase the ink flow.

 

Ok! I will look into that. Thank you so much for your help!

[Bo Bo Olson]

There is slop/tolerance as mentioned.

 

The question to me is the thinner pen uncomfortable to use? Does it really have a 'drag' from being 'dry' or is it just a narrower M nib...if not, then don't worry it's slightly narrower nib and there for making a normally lighter line.

It's normal. Skinny nibs are lighter than thicker nibs.

 

It is quite easy to get a M-B, M or an M-F on three pens in succession out of the factory it's within M tolerance.

If I still had XP instead of this crudge 8.1, I'd pull up a tolerance scale from Schaeffer's US factory, posted a long time ago by Ron z.

It showed thing like a fat F and a skinny M could be exactly the same....same for every width, EF, F, M and B....if not exactly the same they could still be very close to another....

Don't sweat the small stuff.

The world is just full of half sizes....

 

Other companies will make an M that is not like yours at all....they after all are not making a nib for a Parker customer, but for theirs so use their own market research from when they set their standards....If Sheaffer or Waterman made a Parker sized nib....why buy theirs? Waterman is a thinner nib than Sheaffer or Parker.At least in old charts.

 

I cover a bit of this in my signature.

Edited November 21, 2013 by Bo Bo Olson

[ac12]

I measured the width of my Parker nibs out of geeky curiosity.

And as BoBo said, I indeed have overlapping nibs. I have a wide F nib that is wider than my narrow M nib.

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

There is slop/tolerance as mentioned.

 

The question to me is the thinner pen uncomfortable to use? Does it really have a 'drag' from being 'dry' or is it just a narrower M nib...if not, then don't worry it's slightly narrower nib and there for making a normally lighter line.

It's normal. Skinny nibs are lighter than thicker nibs.

 

It is quite easy to get a M-B, M or an M-F on three pens in succession out of the factory it's within M tolerance.

If I still had XP instead of this crudge 8.1, I'd pull up a tolerance scale from Schaeffer's US factory, posted a long time ago by Ron z.

It showed thing like a fat F and a skinny M could be exactly the same....same for every width, EF, F, M and B....if not exactly the same they could still be very close to another....

Don't sweat the small stuff.

The world is just full of half sizes....

 

Other companies will make an M that is not like yours at all....they after all are not making a nib for a Parker customer, but for theirs so use their own market research from when they set their standards....If Sheaffer or Waterman made a Parker sized nib....why buy theirs? Waterman is a thinner nib than Sheaffer or Parker.At least in old charts.

 

I cover a bit of this in my signature.

 

Bo Bo Olson, thank you so much for your input. The pen is not uncomfortable at all, it doesn't drag really, it barely scratches on paper but i was wondering if something was wrong with it since my newer Parker Sonnet is a lot smoother on paper.

 

I'm absolutely new to the whole "high-end" fountain pens thing. The only fountain pen i ever got was a Parker Vector, so i have absolutely no clue as to what is considered "normal" or not when it comes to fountain pens/nibs.

 

You raise good points, thank you for educating me on this matter.

 

At the end of the day, having a narrower M nib is a great thing. It is as if i owned two completely different nibs, and i might not even have to look into buying a F nib in the future as i feel a "real" F nib won't suit my handwriting.

 

See, i'm an empiricist philosopher. Having no sustainable experience nor evidence when it comes to nibs, i had no choice to "sweat the small stuff" as you put it but thank you for the enlightenment .

Edited November 21, 2013 by Amy_likes_Sonnet

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

I measured the width of my Parker nibs out of geeky curiosity.

And as BoBo said, I indeed have overlapping nibs. I have a wide F nib that is wider than my narrow M nib.

 

Ah! Thank you for checking and reporting back. That is very reassuring!

[ac12]

Or said the other way around, I have a narrow M nib that is narrower than my wide F nib.

 

But these were older Parker nibs, as my most of Parkers are older pens 1960-1980.

I do not have measurements of current Parker nibs.

 

The technology for tips is much better today than it was even 30 years ago, so tolerances can be tighter than before.

Or they could just leave wide tolerance, which makes it easier and cheaper to manufacture.

[penmanila]

having dealt with several hundred vintage and modern pens, i've learned not to take declared nib sizes at face value, as they will vary from maker to maker, and even from pen to pen. trust your eye and your hand--even the pressure you put on a nib will affect its writing output. and, at least for my favorite pens, i tweak my own nibs anyway, adjusting them for smoothness and flow, and even for width, so each nib does eventually become unique.

[Bo Bo Olson]

The same thing still happens with modern nibs....fat and narrow in the same range. Many noobies are really bent....things are not exactly 0.33 only or what ever number some one has for this width....ignoring that there are other companies other than which ever one they are upset with.

 

 

Pelikans in '98 and more than likely other companies some other time near then started making fatter blobbier nibs, so the ball point/gel/roller ball crossover folks who hold their pen like a ball point and refuse or don't know how to hold a fountain pen can still use them...holding them like a ball point.

 

The nibs became some what like the old German kugle nibs which were more tipping on the tip and even on the top of the nib...for folks that liked to hold a fountain pen like a pencil...pre-ball point.

Regular flex was made stiffer so they could be misused easier....stiffer more blobby nibs...that are at least in Gold in Pelikan fatter than the steel......steel is still about what pre-97 was in width.

I am prejudiced against modern nibs.

 

|Holding like a ball point causes many cases of scratchy and skipping that is not caused by tine misalignment.

 

At the Lamy factory (took a tour this summer) they check the Safari and All Star and perhaps most other non-gold nibs, by sound. Some 6-8 nibs and sections are 'squiggled' over a revolving drum of paper...and checked by sound. Those that sound scratchy, are diverted to a human who, looks at them in a loupe, writes, adjusts, writes and if necessary adjusts again.

 

To make a simple Lamy nib requires...I forget if it was 26 or 22 different stampings. That is before the pen is tipped with 'iridium' and sliced by a real thin 'rubber and compound ' slicing wheel.

Others use what looks like stiffer diamond wheels.

 

There are video's of Pelikan and Aurora and Japanese nibs in gold. They ran us through were they did the gold nibs....during pause...so there was no gold bars to pocket. Those machines and techniques are the same as 30-50 or more years ago.

WW2 got us better nib tips, not so lumpy as before.

 

Those simple ways are still used.

Some show an iridium powder being dumped on a slowly spinning plate and spot electrical fusing causing a ball of iridium to appear.

If there are other methods, it does the same.

Then they fused to the nib and split.

The nib has to be cooled because of metal tip has spread real wide...and that shrinks it back. That could be new.

 

Nib making machinery has not changed much. Stamping tools.....all the way back to 1850-60s.

Computer operated.

There was one video showing a small Indian factory....primitive 1910-20.... one nib at a time, reach up and pull down....still works ok.

Show gold nibs at Pelikan and MB and Aurora finger fed...into stamping machines.

 

Modern are big machines....like at Lamy....six pen bodies every 7-8 seconds...so much of the line had to be moving parts about that fast....600,000 ? pens a year. (I'd have to look up my report to be closer). If they were testing 6-8 nibs every 10 seconds or so by sound. So the nib is easy to slide on by machine or at home.

The classic nibs are still done by hand in gold.

 

Out side of family owned Lamy who don't want to outsource...I don't see much reason to really spend a lot of money modifying machinery that works in itty bitty parts of conglomerates. Resource management does not have much to do with improving production; that costs bonus money...Production management is so old fashioned out side of Toyota.

Parts of Parker....Cross moved to China for cheap labor....Sheaffer Indonesia. For cheap labor....so don't expect much investment in new machines when old solid machines can be taken from the US, that produced millions of pens every year...can now produce a few hundred thousand.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Bo Bo Olson

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

Lately, a lot of times I have the feeling that Parker nibs have quite a bit of variation. I have seen so many medium and fine nibs for the same type of pen that were all different sizes.

 

Dillon

[Amy_likes_Sonnet]

Thank you ac12, penmanila, Bo Bo Olson and Dillo for your replies.

 

I wonder... if there are such "inconsistencies" or discrepancies among nibs sizes… isn't this a problem for manufacturers? Doesn't this leave customers unsatisfied? Doesn't this lead to a bunch of returns/complaints? Or you think that the variations are so minor that only "picky" users can notice them? Or maybe it satisfies fountain pens fanatics as it allows you to either have unique nibs that you may or may not want to tweak yourselves?

 

Bo Bo Olson, you said this: "Pelikans in '98 and more than likely other companies some other time near then started making fatter blobbier nibs". I noticed that my older Sonnet has a flatter nib while my newer Sonnet is quite rounded on the top. Is it possible to have such a difference in the nib design from 2002 to... let's say... 2007 (not sure of the date of my newer Sonnet)? Does this lead to different lines widths? (I am sorry, i must sound so uneducated to you guys).

Edited November 22, 2013 by Amy_likes_Sonnet

[Bo Bo Olson]

Everyone starts off noobie.....and has fun learning 4-5 things a day for a month, then two things, finally one a week....one wanders into ink and paper and still learns after years.

 

Older '50's German nibs were quite flat with minimum 'iridium', stubbish. In fact when I first seen this being use to American pens with the American Bump under from back in B&W TV days.

I'd thought some idiot had taken a file or a stone to it. I was so wrong!!

In the '60's many German pens started having the American bump under the nib.

 

 

Yes the change by Pelikan came in '98 all at once...so it's quite possible for the nib tipping shape to change to fat and blobby with in a year. """"I noticed that my older Sonnet has a flatter nib while my newer Sonnet is quite rounded on the top. --fat and blobby?? Able to hold it like a ball point and still write.

 

In the '50-60's German pens had a Kugle Point....a 'ball' point, for folks that like to hold a fountain pen like a pencil....ball point a bit later. The older ones the bottem is still rather flat, the tip is rounded and the top have tipping. I have two in KM ( '60-66)...and a '52-55 KOB but that is a Waverly (bent) tip. Quite possible they had that Kugle point in the '30's and before.

 

There was a time of one man, one pen.....and the wife got the old pen....when brand loyalty was very important....back when every where were pen shops....where you could get the exact width of a nib you wanted....you could check out 4-5 nibs from Your Company. Repairs were done....there.

Sheaffer had a lifetime one.....so nibs got stiffer.....my guess.

Not so hard to break and bend.

 

Back then the pen companies were independent, managers were expected to be there for a while....stock was worth something so a stock option was also worth something. There was loyalty to the brand from management and customers. Now as tiny parts of a conglomerate.

Resource management squeezes the lemon...minimum investment....don't plant new lemon trees....that is risky production management....very risky to the bonus.

 

I think most modern customers just buy a pen and don't have an eye to say....gee that is one real fat F. They take the F to mean fine.

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

I think many fountain pen users today do tolerate it as manufacturing variation. Personally, I take the nib width designations with a grain of salt.

 

Dillon

[pajaro]

I have several Sonnets, about ten mediums. They vary from fine to wide medium, drier to wet. The nibs are from early Sonnet to later ones. They are just all over the board. This is not a bad thing; I like the finer nibs.

 

I advise that you write a bit with the Sonnet each day that it is inked, to keep it from drying out. This works well for me.

[ajcoleman]

It has been my experience that modern Parkers (Sonnets, Frontiers) run wider than more vintage Parkers (21's, 45's, 51's). But that could just be another way of saying that Parker hooded and semi-hooded nibs are finer than their modern conventional nibs.