Arm On Desk?

[Ed333]

Should table height be a function of comfortably letting forearms rest on the surface, pretty much at right angles with upper arms and torso? Right now mine are slightly elevated, makes me feel a bit strained. Using the standup desk with slanted surface, felt like my shoulders and elbows had to be jacked up, and then hand and pen were at too oblique an angle to writing surface. But that is just my uninformed subjective impression....trying to get back to center

[Mickey]

Should table height be a function of comfortably letting forearms rest on the surface, pretty much at right angles with upper arms and torso? Right now mine are slightly elevated, makes me feel a bit strained. Using the standup desk with slanted surface, felt like my shoulders and elbows had to be jacked up, and then hand and pen were at too oblique an angle to writing surface. But that is just my uninformed subjective impression....trying to get back to center

I write at a slightly slanted desk, but that is probably in the realm of personal preference and old habits. The ideal height is approximately the distance from your elbow to the floor when you are seated upright (proper spinal curvature), bent slightly at the waist to put your eyes in line with your pen over the page. The goal is to have your forearm parallel to and just brushing the desk when you are seated comfortably and solidly. That said, if your set up is comfortable, nonfatiguing, and conducive to writing, who is going to argue. For me, a desk set too high is tough on my body and set too low is tough on my writing.

 

With the slanted desk, I get to sit up a little straighter and get my eyes bit closer to the page without hunching over. If your eyes are still sharp and your arms aren't too long, you probably won't need the extra help. BTW, when I was writing primarily in italic, I slanted the desk more than I do now, about the same as the desk Lloyd Reynolds used for his series of video lessons.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Mickey

[Mickey]

It seems one of my posts (#5) was deemed by some to have been rude or insulting. This was not my intention and still do not see it as such. It was critical, which was my intention. The paragraph below is a word for word copy of what I offered elsewhere in further explanation and what I was assured would have been an appropriate criticism.

 

"My opinion of her method and advice is unchanged. I believe it problematic if not potentially injurious. I went so far as to follow her methods this morning during an hour long test. (I had watched and been horrified by some of her videos previously.) I have carpel tunnel issues, from an impact injury and genetic predisposition, not from RSI. It did not take long, relying solely on wrist and fingers, before I became aware of irritations to the tendons and muscles of my forearm. I did not lean on my hand, but merely left it anchored to the desk. Upon allowing the muscle of the shoulder and upper arm to contribute even a small amount to pen motion, the irritation abated. Reanchoring the hand caused the symptoms to return in short order. While this might not qualify as extensive laboratory testing, it was enough to convince me my initial response was not wrong, at least for people predisposed to RSI and related problems."

 

Continuing today: I repeated the above exercise yesterday at a different desk with virtually identical results.

 

Observe the attached video at 5:30 or there about. The arm dominates the pen movement, the fingers primarily active to control the edge orientation (e.g., for serifs). Perusal of this entire series of lession shows exactly what I originally stated, letter scale dictates muscle contribution, but that at no time should the arm be locked out of the process. (BTW, it's difficult to sit up straight and lean on one's hand at properly configured slanted desk, nor entirely sensible as a general practice.)

 

 

Notice in the following video at around 8:20. The hand is not rolled over on to its side nor is it leaned on. Instead, it is allowed to glide on the smallest 2 or 3 fingers, which are turned under the hand. (Just like in pointed pen work.) Note also that the entire hand moves, not just the fingers and that the finger motion is a coordinated effort of the entire hand. The forefinger is most certainly NOT the prime mover.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2013 by Mickey

[HDoug]

Mickey, I think you should discontinue practices that cause you distress. But you may be misapplying Nannyʻs fairly simple and straightforward advice:

 

Muscular movement is in the fingers and some in the wrist. The ulnar side of the hand ( the part nearest the little finger) rides along the desk as you write. There is no shoulder movement for italic, as the hand rests on the paper, it moves along with a very slight lift between some letters.

 

In your tests you werenʻt resting the hand on the paper but, "left it anchored to the desk." Nanny says that there is no shoulder movement in italic not that "the arm be locked out of the process."

Both Reynoldsʻ and Nannyʻs video show large letters being written with arm movements.

In any case, I think this is a classic "different strokes for different folks" issue where some people can write using a technique that causes other people problems. When learning a new skill, people will generally run through a number of techniques until the one that "fits" is found. While Iʻm not suggesting that the technique that Nanny advocates is THE CORRECT one, I donʻt think anyone wanting to learn italic should dismiss it out of hand as being incorrect.

Doug

[Mickey]

Mickey, I think you should discontinue practices that cause you distress. But you may be misapplying Nannyʻs fairly simple and straightforward advice:

 

 

In your tests you werenʻt resting the hand on the paper but, "left it anchored to the desk." Nanny says that there is no shoulder movement in italic not that "the arm be locked out of the process."

 

Both Reynoldsʻ and Nannyʻs video show large letters being written with arm movements.

 

In any case, I think this is a classic "different strokes for different folks" issue where some people can write using a technique that causes other people problems. When learning a new skill, people will generally run through a number of techniques until the one that "fits" is found. While Iʻm not suggesting that the technique that Nanny advocates is THE CORRECT one, I donʻt think anyone wanting to learn italic should dismiss it out of hand as being incorrect.

 

Doug

 

I think you may be slightly misconstruing what I am saying and, if I am to credit a hand surgeon friend of mine, you may be under estimating the percentage of the population at risk. I don't suffer from RSI, in spite of a slight physiological predisposition, because my biomechanics are sound. If doing something in a biomechanically sound manner gets the job done, I can't imagine why someone would try or persist in a method which very well may not be.

 

In any event, there can be no movement of the arm without movement of the shoulder. That's were the joint allowing that movement* resides. Also, the muscles moving the arm are located across the chest and back. The hand and arm don't just suddenly go jumping around on their own. If the arm moves, the movement is effected by the shoulder, back and chest, though I suppose you could move the arm using the core muscles or even your legs, but that even less sensible.

 

Whether Nanny's arm does or does not move in the video is of little interest to me, it may be a case of do what I do, not what I say, but

 

"It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen."

 

that I find utterly nonsensical. I can think of no more polite term for it. Consider, that the pen is typically gripped among the first two fingers and the thumb. It's the grip I use, it's the grip Nanny demonstrates. So, unless the pen is flopping around all over the place in her grip (it does not appear that it does), the emboldened text above cannot be true. At the very least (if still insufficiently rigorous), it is the thumb and first two fingers working in concert that manipulate the pen. After a methodological gaffe that profound, I have difficulty crediting anything else that follows.

 

I don't think this is a case of different strokes for different folks. There may well be more than one way to write italic correctly (there probably is) or approaches which make superior sense (I would never consider applying the movement required for OP to italic), but that doesn't mean there aren't ways that don't work or don't work well and that there aren't descriptions which are either inapt or incorrect.

 

* movement in a plane parallel to the desk.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Mickey

[HDoug]

Mickey, you're being argumentative. The statement, "It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen," allows for the participation of the other fingers and other parts of the anatomy. If she had said, "It is ONLY the forefinger..." or, "It is EXCLUSIVELY the forefinger..." then you'd have a case of floppy pen as you describe.

 

I don't know if others are having the same difficulty understanding what Nanny is saying, but we are clear that you do not subscribe to the method and consider it dangerous. I venture that you will not get an adjudication or consensus of your view in this thread or in this forum, so let's just get back to corners and let other questions and comments continue the thread.

 

Doug

[thang1thang2]

Mickey, you're being argumentative. The statement, "It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen," allows for the participation of the other fingers and other parts of the anatomy. If she had said, "It is ONLY the forefinger..." or, "It is EXCLUSIVELY the forefinger..." then you'd have a case of floppy pen as you describe.

 

The issue that I find with the "principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen" idea is that if you break the writing of broad nib scripts into its theory, that premise doesn't work.

 

Broad nib scripts, in theory, have the dynamic between fat and thin in the lettering caused by the difference in nib angle. In order for it to be uniform (one of the three pillars of legibility and beauty in writing), that means the nib angle must be perfectly still, allowing the change in direction to create the thick/thin dynamics.

 

The nib must, then, not rotate in either the x, y or z axis for perfect results. However, if you manipulate the pen with your forefinger you move the nib in the z axis, and the y axis in relation to the x axis. And many times the x axis is modified as well. This clearly does not facilitate a perfect writing style.

 

Writing with the forearm/arm however allows one to keep the fingers perfectly still (or very close to still) and thus the x,y, and z axises are in perfect relation to each-other throughout the writing piece and the only change that occurs is then the angle of the hand to the paper which would change the z and x axises. That's why many advocate moving the paper every 3 letters or so to keep your arm at the right angle.

 

At this point of the theory rationalizing, I can see no reason why one would advocate that moving the pen with entirely the fingers is a wholly equal solution. Yes, it IS a possibility, and it IS a solution, but I would not (with a straight face) be able to call it a method equal of the combined arm movement.

[HDoug]

thang1thang2, one can manipulate a pen principally with the forefinger along different axes. There is no reason why a person using the technique would be limited to manipulation of a pen only on one dimension or axis. If you wish to use another technique that's fine. There will be no finding of "correct" or "incorrect" on this subject in this thread or forum.

I encourage you to present arguments supporting whatever method you advocate. But you have to ease up on the "with a straight face" type of comment because it expresses a laughable contempt toward those who disagree with what you're saying. I'm going to be enforcing the "Be Polite" rule of FPN with a bit more vigor and I'm putting that out in public here.

But back to the subject. The use of arm and fingers may be related to the size of the writing. Large text would more likely require arms and smaller writing would rely more on fingers -- at least to my way of thinking.

 

What's the x-height of your italic writing? Mine is uniformly around 2mm. A little more when tired and properly wined, a little less when trying to write deep thoughts.

Doug