"expensive" Pens...with Steel Nibs?

[proton007]

In general true, but when you look at wartime flexible steel nibs, which are often still in excellent condition you can also see that manufacturing a durable flexible steel nib is not impossible.

If they can last 70 and more years in good condition this is already proven.

And the metallurgy is now much further than it was 70 years ago.

 

That nowadays no good flex FP nibs are on the market (neither gold nor steel) is a business decision of the pen companies not a material question.

 

I think with modern metallurgy and engineering methods it would be possible to manufacture a nib which exceeds anything what was made in the past. But this is a decision the manufacturers currently don't consider as most people are happy with their modern spherical M size unity nails.

 

Btw. You can also modify a modern Noodler's springy (or other modern steel nibs) nib to become much more flexible.

The flex is significantly related to the shape of the nib.

 

Well, the flex is related to the shape and the material, both.

 

True flex dip nibs are much longer than the FP nibs, hence a fountain pen will probably never achieve the same flex as a dip pens. Vintage nibs are made of spring steel, has higher carbon content, is not very resistant to corrosion and will break easily.

 

Add to this the fact that not many students have been taught how to use these nibs in school since the early 20th century.

 

It certainly can be done with modern metallurgy. However, for a pen maker, offering a highly flexible nib would be suicide.

 

Thats why flex pens disappeared from the mainstream a long time ago, and companies rely on two major factors, a market to sell stuff, and the overall durability of their product, both of which a flex nib fails to meet.

 

Then there's the point about differentiation. If a company is making a few varieties of pens, there's not much you can do with a single material. There's a limit to how many pens you can make with the same nib by varying the body styles. Lamy seems to be the perfect example.

Edited August 13, 2013 by proton007

[msolok]

Spring, yes, but not flex.

 

There are some fairly springy steel nibs, like the steel nibs on the Pelikan M200 series and the Parker Sonnet, but a steel nib can not flex like a gold nib. The best material for a flex nib is 14kt gold becase it is soft enough to bend, but strong enough to bend back into shape.

 

Sorry, as has been said, this is not correct. Gold is a very maluable metal. That is, it bends but it does not flex or spring. Any flex and spring comes from the nib design and manufacture, not from the materials it is made from.

 

As I said before, many of the reasons for using Gold as a nib material are Traditional, based on price (Gold nibs are usually on more expensive pens which have a higher QC and better designs and tollerances), and asthetics. A WELL manufactured Steel nib is mroe than a match for a good quality Steel nib.

That's not even mentioning the other materials nibs are made out of, including Palladium and Titanium (both of which are much cheaper than gold).

[de_pen_dent]

Some people fixate on the few grams of gold alloyed with the other metals in the nib. For them the word "gold" needs to appear somewhere in the description for a pen to have a high price. Others fixate on the brand reputation, or the decorative materials, or the appearance, or the writing experience, or the historical significance, or the scarcity. About the only point of agreement is that you have to fixate on something in order to justify a high price: we just don't agree on our fixations.

ron

 

 

As I said earlier, consider a 710€ Montblanc 149 or a 650€ Pelikan M1000. Those are plastic with a 50€ gold nib. Are they worth the price asked ? If you answer yes to this, yet think the steel nib is a problem on a 500€ Défi, I think there is a logic problem as well.

 

^^ QFT.

 

On a $500 or a $1000 pen, the price of the nib is a very small portion of the total cost. Heck, the total cost of materials is usually a very insignificant portion of the cost.

 

IMO, it makes no sense to say that a $500 pen's price is justified b/c it uses about $30 worth of gold in the nib vs $1 worth of steel.

 

YMMV.

[proton007]

 

 

 

^^ QFT.

 

On a $500 or a $1000 pen, the price of the nib is a very small portion of the total cost. Heck, the total cost of materials is usually a very insignificant portion of the cost.

 

IMO, it makes no sense to say that a $500 pen's price is justified b/c it uses about $30 worth of gold in the nib vs $1 worth of steel.

 

Its the same case for a lot of different things.

 

Audiophile cables worth thousands contain the same OFC that a $10 cable has.

 

If there's a market, price has no bounds.

[UK Mike]

As a qualified metallurgist let me say from an engineering point of view, that the use of gold as a nib material is very hard to justify.

 

In the past when tooling was not available, gold was an easy material to beat into thin sheets and then cut and form. It was also capable of withstanding any corrosive effects of aqueous ink and was always seen as a status symbol because of it's scarcity and value. The more average scribes would have been using quills or glass pens.

 

Pure gold was a disaster of course because it remained too soft and malleable to be of much use and therefore became alloyed to improve its mechanical properties. Even with this refinement gold is not really a structural engineering material because of its high malleabilty and low modulus of elasticity. And bear in mind that an 18k nib is only 75% gold and a 14k nib is only 58% gold,

 

When technology improved, steel became a viable material and with modern forming techniques can be made to any shape you require, in any thickness and with mechanical properties tailored accurately to any given application. It has much higher strength and a much higher modulus of elasticity ie it is stiffer and will return to its former shape after greater deflection than gold. It can also have its mechanical properties altered by heat treatment and is extremely durable. With the advent of stainless steels, the problems of corrosion were banished.

 

From an engineering perspective there is no doubt that steel is the superior structural material, albeit one of much less value than gold.

 

As fountain pens are tools where beauty and practicality go hand in hand, it is natural that precious metals and materials would be used to enhance the product. That does not necessarily mean that product is the best from an engineering standpoint.

 

Steel nibs can be engineered to give superior flex than a gold nib, can be plated to look like a gold nib, and can be stamped, engraved or laser-marked to be as pretty as a gold nib. In short a steel nib can do everything a gold nib can, and more, if engineered correctly.

 

A fountain nib is put under quite severe bending forces when writing and has to maintain precise dimensional stability of the feed groove over a period of time that may extend to several generations. Is gold the best metallic material to ensure this? NO!

 

In the final analysis, we are all writing with a blob of "iridium-based" alloy on the tip of the nib of a modern pen and this is where the smoothness, or otherwise, of the writing experience comes from.

Whilst we may all prefer the glister of a gold nib on our pen it is more a mark of opulence than performance. With all the technology that goes into producing the material, steel should probably be valued higher than gold. It is only its lack of scarcity that holds it back.

Edited August 13, 2013 by UK Mike

[msolok]

See, what did i tell ya ;-)

 

The real thing holding back steel nibs is perception. We perceive that gold is better, even if it is far from true. We are stuck on tradition.

We also tend to compare low end steel nibs to high ri end gold, and come to the conclusion that the gold makes it better. That is far from a fair comparison. A high end steel to high end gold is the only true and fair comparison.

Regardless, my Visconti Palladium nibs blow away all my other nibs, be they gold, steel or other.

Edited August 13, 2013 by msolok

[Montblanc owner and lover]

it's true that when you see that for 150€ you got a sailor with a 14k nib and for 250€ a 21K.........

[Montblanc owner and lover]

May be that techincally steel is bether but what i can see is that i got gold nibs and steel nibs and the gold ones are much bether. I'm not a metalurgist like you, i can't tell but it's like that and may be it's just my mind

[cellmatrix]

One other advantage of gold nibs that may not have been mentioned (or if it has I did not catch it browsing this thread on my iphone) is that they are said to better resist corrosion from iron gall inks than steel nibs.

[Pterodactylus]

As a qualified metallurgist let me say from an engineering point of view, that the use of gold as a nib material is very hard to justify.

 

In the past when tooling was not available, gold was an easy material to beat into thin sheets and then cut and form. It was also capable of withstanding any corrosive effects of aqueous ink and was always seen as a status symbol because of it's scarcity and value. The more average scribes would have been using quills or glass pens.

 

Pure gold was a disaster of course because it remained too soft and malleable to be of much use and therefore became alloyed to improve its mechanical properties. Even with this refinement gold is not really a structural engineering material because of its high malleabilty and low modulus of elasticity. And bear in mind that an 18k nib is only 75% gold and a 14k nib is only 58% gold,

 

When technology improved, steel became a viable material and with modern forming techniques can be made to any shape you require, in any thickness and with mechanical properties tailored accurately to any given application. It has much higher strength and a much higher modulus of elasticity ie it is stiffer and will return to its former shape after greater deflection than gold. It can also have its mechanical properties altered by heat treatment and is extremely durable. With the advent of stainless steels, the problems of corrosion were banished.

 

From an engineering perspective there is no doubt that steel is the superior structural material, albeit one of much less value than gold.

 

As fountain pens are tools where beauty and practicality go hand in hand, it is natural that precious metals and materials would be used to enhance the product. That does not necessarily mean that product is the best from an engineering standpoint.

 

Steel nibs can be engineered to give superior flex than a gold nib, can be plated to look like a gold nib, and can be stamped, engraved or laser-marked to be as pretty as a gold nib. In short a steel nib can do everything a gold nib can, and more, if engineered correctly.

 

A fountain nib is put under quite severe bending forces when writing and has to maintain precise dimensional stability of the feed groove over a period of time that may extend to several generations. Is gold the best metallic material to ensure this? NO!

 

In the final analysis, we are all writing with a blob of "iridium-based" alloy on the tip of the nib of a modern pen and this is where the smoothness, or otherwise, of the writing experience comes from.

Whilst we may all prefer the glister of a gold nib on our pen it is more a mark of opulence than performance. With all the technology that goes into producing the material, steel should probably be valued higher than gold. It is only its lack of scarcity that holds it back.

Thanks for your competent explanation,, you brought it to the point much better than I could, very well done.

I will remember your post for later reference (this thread was not the first and will not be the last of this kind, the "Superior Gold Nib" myth will not disappear).

[UK Mike]

Your steel nibs may not be as good as your gold nibs - but that doesn't mean that generally steel nibs are inferior does it.

 

Your perception that gold nibs are better will also cloud your subjective judgement.

 

In the world of calligraphy, where performance is everything, flex is paramount and aesthetics of the tools are secondary - steel is King!

[msolok]

One other advantage of gold nibs that may not have been mentioned (or if it has I did not catch it browsing this thread on my iphone) is that they are said to better resist corrosion from iron gall inks than steel nibs.

 

Yeah, this was mentioned by myself and UK Mike. The thing is, with todays inks corrosion is not a big issue. Certainly not as much as it used to be with inks.

[UK Mike]

One other advantage of gold nibs that may not have been mentioned (or if it has I did not catch it browsing this thread on my iphone) is that they are said to better resist corrosion from iron gall inks than steel nibs.

 

 

Stainless teel does not suffer corrosion from iron-gall inks, most of which are now much less aggressive than the inks of 100 years ago. This is not a consideration any longer. But thanks for bringing it up.

[UK Mike]

Thanks for your competent explanation,, you brought it to the point much better than I could, very well done.

I will remember your post for later reference (this thread was not the first and will not be the last of this kind, the "Superior Gold Nib" myth will not disappear).

 

Very kind of you Pteradactylus - I am flattered

[de_pen_dent]

 

Its the same case for a lot of different things.

 

Audiophile cables worth thousands contain the same OFC that a $10 cable has.

 

If there's a market, price has no bounds.

 

Haha, true. I remember getting into vehement arguments with Jonathan Scull, one-time editor/contributor to Stereophile, on this*. Those green pens and Shakti Stones were the last straw in a bastion of unthinking lemming behavior (and not to mention, SET amps just destroyed pretty much anything solid state).

 

My point wasnt to discuss the merits of whether this pricing is fair - merely to point out that worrying about the presence or absence of <$30 worth of materials on a $500 pen should be fairly low on the list priorities (IMO).

 

 

*Although his set up of Krell monoblocks and Wilson Watt-Puppies was an absolutely mindblowing rig!

[cellmatrix]

Stainless teel does not suffer corrosion from iron-gall inks, most of which are now much less aggressive than the inks of 100 years ago. This is not a consideration any longer. But thanks for bringing it up.

Hi, hey sorry to miss your previous comments and those of msolok. For a $20 pen I would not care, but using iron gall long term in an $800 steel nib pen (call it caution or call it groundless paranoia) I would flush it out and worry much more than I suppose I should, despite the anecdotal evidence here.

Edited August 13, 2013 by cellmatrix

[Bo Bo Olson]

As I said, I have pre war Osmia's with a great steel nib and gold.. got after the war gold and steel nibs too..

Very lucky for 8 pens.

Anything one of those very good at (3)'50s Pelikan or the single '50's MB gold 14 C nibs can do; the Osmia can too in flexi and semi-flex in gold or steel..

 

I dug out my 100N a 14 Karat nib which I always thought a 4X + (not 5-6 X)a light down stroke easy full flex nib, and a Degussa Steel nib (Osmia sold their nib factory to them in 1932, so all my Osmia nibs are actually Degussa marked Osmia. That Degussa nib I have on one of my Artus pens is more flexible, and has wider tine spread.5 +-6 X.

 

I was suddenly wondering if that steel nib was a wet noodle. But some time ago, having compared it to my Soenecken wet noodle that needs re-tipping, just think it's a very nice easy full flex nib that has a wider tine spread.than the gold Pelikan.

 

I separate regular, semi-flex and flexi as spreading their tines @ 3 X a light down stroke and easy full flex and super-flex with tine spread of 4-5-6 X a light down stroke....with noodles needing half the pressure of a easy full flex.

 

It is not just the nice early War nibs...have a couple but no Pelikan, that were very good steel nibs with good flex.I have to admit I don't have a nib index...should do that some day...be much easier than digging through a lot of pens.

Degussa made on Osmia tooling, with the same alloys, as good as the gold, steel nibs before and after the War.

Degussa also made different flexes for other companies wishing different. Degussa was the Bock of the day, in Bock was started in I believe 1938, and Osmia later Degussa had been making their own nibs since the 20's. Degussa bought up the Osmia nib factory when Osmia needed money in 1932. Degussa stopped making nibs @ 1970.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Bo Bo Olson

[Aramchek]

I just ordered my first Platinum with a gold nib even though it cost twice as much as the steel nib version (which with this model meant a ~$40 difference) mostly so taht I have a reasonable idea what Nakaya nibs are like, both in construction, feel and tipping width (even though more work is put into those) since I'm hoping to buy a Nakaya at some point. However, while I agree that gold nibs have little to no practical advantage, there is a difficult to describe emotional element to it as well, it just feels more luxurious.

 

The main reasons I hope I'll one day have pens with palladium nibs and titanium nibs is because it's interesting to have them made of unusual materials - again, little practical advantage, but rather a niftyness factor.

[Randal6393]

I have only one pen with a gold nib -- a Lamy 2000. And, while an enjoyable pen, it is a pain to maintain. Mostly because the softer nib requires regrinding more often than my steel nibs do. Not serious "remove lots of metal" regrinding but a gentle honing that realigns everything. So I much prefer my steel nibs.

 

Well, must be off to readjust my Lamy.

 

Enjoy,

[jar]

I have only one pen with a gold nib -- a Lamy 2000. And, while an enjoyable pen, it is a pain to maintain. Mostly because the softer nib requires regrinding more often than my steel nibs do. Not serious "remove lots of metal" regrinding but a gentle honing that realigns everything. So I much prefer my steel nibs.

 

Well, must be off to readjust my Lamy.

 

Enjoy,

 

Gotta ask, what is it that you are doing that you would have to "hone" a nib?