Jump to content

The Fountain Pen Network uses (functional) cookies. Read the FPN Privacy Policy for more info.  To remove this message, please click here to accept the use of cookies


Registration on the Fountain Pen Network

Dearest Visitor of the little Fountain Pen Nut house on the digital prairie,

Due to the enormous influx of spammers, it is no longer possible to handle valditions in the traditional way. For registrations we therefore kindly and respectfully request you to send an email with your request to our especially created email address. This email address is register at fountainpennetwork dot com. Please include your desired user name, and after validation we will send you a return email containing the validation key, normally wiithin a week.

Thank you very much in advance!
The FPN Admin Team






Photo

Is Cursive Dead? New Article 28 June 2013

cursive education

  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#21 thang1thang2

thang1thang2

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 00:49

 

I learned cursive in the US. Granted, this was in the 90s (which was only a little while ago, but for some reason people make it out to be ages ago).

 

Let's admit something here. Apart from the select few who still write, who in the US actually needs cursive? I'm not saying "down with cursives" - not by long shot - but would this Miss Jeantel (who really should have admitted 'I can't read cursive', not 'I don't') ever need to correspond in a situation where one will be judged their level of education and intellect by the handwriting a document?

 

 

I wouldn't recommend cursive taught in schools for the necessary purpose of using it. But rather for the fact that it stimulates the brain in ways that no other way of writing does, and it does so the same way that print handwriting does, but far more powerful. Here's a link to a rather "mainstream" site that dumbs things down a bit. But since their sources check out, I'll link it here since it's easy to read. 

 

http://www.psycholog...does-your-brain

 

Basically, they're discovering that learning cursive increases the brain's maximum efficiency. It helps with fine motor control. It helps with many areas of cognitive development. And then there's the writing by hand itself. Unlike keyboarding, people who write things out by hand tend to write (on average) "more words, faster, and expressed more ideas when writing essays by hand versus with a keyboard". 

 

Whether it's necessary or not for USAGE isn't a concept that I would use to leverage the reason why I feel we need cursive. I would rather everyone learn cursive because it helps the brain development so much. There are many things that we can do that are, in of themselves, entirely useless; but the spillover benefits greatly outweigh the time cost to learning/doing them.

 

I don't know, I think I would be fine with schools mandating cursive for a couple hours a week if it meant that, statistically, my kid was going to be smarter because of it. We have a hard enough time as it is passing standardized tests. If kids become more efficient, and smarter and express more ideas? Why wouldn't you want it?

 

I feel it's the equivalent of refusing a credit card with $500 on it free, because you can't use it the same way you can use cash. 



Sponsored Content

#22 N2theBreach

N2theBreach

    Still learning

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 913 posts
  • Location:Mid-Atlantic
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:10

We see these articles brought to our attention regularly, and they are a usually stimulus for people like me and others who bemoan the loss of cursive and all that will be lost with it, to bemoan it yet again, wring our hands, and wish it wasn't happening.  Yes, it's reassuring to know that others feel like I do, however, it doesn't change anything in the real world, outside these virtual walls.

 

What we can do about it?  Last year, we established a National Fountain Pen Day in just a few months.  It was real,  many vendors and members participated in one way or another.  When I look at it, I think it was quite remarkable that we were able to make it happen (and a tribute to EarthDawn's commitment to it). 

 

If we can establish a National Fountain Pen Day in just a few months, what could we do if we put our collective minds together to influence  whether today's youngsters are taught cursive in the schools? 



#23 Frank_Federalist_Pens

Frank_Federalist_Pens

    (Was "FrankieX" here)

  • FPN Supporter - Platinum

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,734 posts
  • Location:South Jersey (Near Philly, PA)

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:59

Qoute/

The average starting salary of teachers is about $30,400.  Comparable professions? $43-45k starting

 

 

And my favorite one. "Teachers only work from 8 to 3 and they have weekends and the summer off. It's totally fair!"

 

 

$80k? I've never EVER seen that number. Except of course, in Nassau, New York. In Nassau county teachers can make 88k on average. Want to know the cost of living there? Moving from las angeles California (one of the largest cities in the world) to Nassau would decrease your pay by an equivalent of 11.4k dollars a year.

 

Moving from Topeka Kansas? If you made 88,000 dollars a year in kansas, you would need to make 167,000 a year to maintain the same standard of living in New York. I know I can make 80k as an engineer, receiving almost the exact same training as a high school math teacher would need (plus electrical courses). Can you say the same for a teacher? Who's average salar y in Kansas isn't even 50k? 

 

(My mother is a teacher, so this is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I've had to see her suffer through pay-cuts for 12 years straight. Or pay "freezes". She works in the private district, and makes more money there than she would in the public district)

 

Wanna know her pay? 50k. It's the highest salary I've ever seen for a teacher in a town of that population and cost of living. We can't afford jacksquat compared to everyone else I know with her level of training)

 

Want to make money? Don't ever become a teacher. 

 

/Qoute

 

Yes, in NJ- $80k is top end salary with 25+years service! You are well vested, and near retirement at this level! Admin salaries are over $100K for the most part! (Some asst. principals even make this level!)

 

I will say that most starting salaries are a "Healthy" $50k in NJ! But, they have to be given the cost of living here!


Edited by Frankiex, 01 July 2013 - 04:09.

"When, in the course of writing events, in becomes self-evident that not all pens are created equal"  (Federalist Frank)

 

Federalist Pens and Paper  (Online Pen Store)

 

facelogo.png

Use Forum Code "FPN" at Checkout to Receive an Additional 5% Discount!

 
 

 


#24 thang1thang2

thang1thang2

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:31

The standard of living seems to be incredibly high in NJ. The average family of 4 to "afford adequate food and other necessities," needs to bring in anywhere from $64,000 to $73,371 a year.

 

I'm more surprised by the fact that the metropolitan areas of NJ have about 50% more expensive housing than the USA average, and that the taxes are about 20% higher. I can certainly see why teachers would want higher salaries there... Unfortunately the average starter pay is still only $44-45k. Luckily, the average pay goes up to about 50-58k.



#25 elysee

elysee

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,502 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:51

Polikoff (in the article) displays his ignorance as an educator as studies have shown that one learns more and remembers more when one writes the information (and takes notes) by hand as opposed to typing (using a keyboard).

 

I would certainly hate to have my ability to do my work be limited by an inability to use writing instruments.  Even worse would be to limit my ability to do this work in a neat, beautiful, and creative manner due to an inability to use cursive.  

 

How sad it would be for us to go back to the times when people made their marks -- an X or other squiggle -- rather than our being able to sign our own names!



#26 GabrielleDuVent

GabrielleDuVent

    The Sylph Scribe of the Unseelie Court, 2nd Class

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,238 posts
  • Location:Gardens of the Moon
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:05

Polikoff (in the article) displays his ignorance as an educator as studies have shown that one learns more and remembers more when one writes the information (and takes notes) by hand as opposed to typing (using a keyboard).

 

I would certainly hate to have my ability to do my work be limited by an inability to use writing instruments.  Even worse would be to limit my ability to do this work in a neat, beautiful, and creative manner due to an inability to use cursive.  

 

How sad it would be for us to go back to the times when people made their marks -- an X or other squiggle -- rather than our being able to sign our own names!

 

You forgot thumb prints. :P

 

I think a lot of people believe that PCs and digital technology allow "easier learning". I can't even begin to count how many lectures I've gone through, utterly frustrated by powerpoint slides. I had a very old professor - he was Francis Crick's student, so he's SUPER old - who wrote everything out on the board. I loved his lectures, and his lectures I still remember, 6 years later. I learn by writing and taking notes on a blank sheet of paper.

 

Unfortunately, most lectures nowadays (especially in the sciences) heavily rely on powerpoints. I hate those lectures; my retention suddenly drops from a dramatic 80% to about 40%! And since most professors whiz through the slides that make writing on blank sheets of paper impossible (diagrams and animations make this rather difficult), I have to print out the slides, record the lecture, write on the slides as the lecture's recorded, come home, then re-write the lecture... then sort those lecture notes out by re-writing them into a notebook. But all my peers seem to like this format, placing me in the minority. 

 

Same with textbooks. More and more students are using online textbooks, but I can't use them. I can't even read them without my attention wandering (my eyes wander to other things once or twice per sentence).

 

So maybe I'm just technologically incapable... and the newer generations learn just fine by typing. I've noticed that I really don't retain as much if it's via electronics, whether it be communication or study material; I even forget conversations when it's through skype or text (this is so bad that I sometimes don't know who's talking to me, even with their names displayed). I thought I had Alzheimer's for a while, but nope... I just don't retain information on screen as well as I do on paper. 

 

I think my attention wanders when I'm looking at the screen, as I can't take exams online either. In this day and age, this is probably going to be the death of me someday, but I've yet to have anyone tell me how to study with powerpoint slides (I got about two years worth of "how to take good notes while the teacher is writing and talking", however). 

 

But I am told that my knowledge is rather extensive compared to an average person, whoever the average person is (that phrase always reminds me of 0.3 of a child that shows up in The Phantom Tollbooth). So maybe electronic learning is short-term and a more analogue method of learning is long-term... 

 

Cursive is faster for me. It's evident from my essay exams; I'm printing at first for legibility, but as soon as I feel pressed for time suddenly my handwriting switches to cursive, and I only noticed this after I got the exams back. But writing cursive fast requires practice, perhaps, and it's an acquired habit, and perhaps without the practice it's slower than printing. 

 

American educators don't get instructed on how to teach cursive. A survey yielded that only 11% of teachers are taught how to teach cursive in 2011. In Japan, cursive is not mandatory in English curriculum post-1998. 

 

According to Time...

 

Instead, students will be expected to become proficient in keyboard use.

Seems like a smart move as being able to type efficiently is a vital skill in today’s world, as opposed to knowing how to write cursive, which — like being able to churn butter and knowing how to hitch a horse to a wagon — is no longer needed.

 

Cursive isn't the only thing being ushered out the door. Map reading is also getting obsolete, along with using hard copy dictionaries and going to libraries. Maybe this is a good thing, as life is getting more convenient for more people.

 

Me? I still need maps and I still have dictionaries in front of my desk. But I'm obstinate and old-fashioned. :P


Edited by GabrielleDuVent, 01 July 2013 - 07:05.

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,

Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;

Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié. 

 

-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923


#27 Techi

Techi

    Mint

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:32

I agree with everything being said, however here in the UK cursive writing was still being taught, and as far as I am aware still is. As when I was of primary school age, we were not given a choice - write in smooth joining cursive or not write at all.
However most people have chosen to drop this way of writing simply because of the time it takes over standard block text - for them anyway.

I, however, still write in cursive - despite being only 16 years of age.
I also only use a fountain pen in all my time in secondary education and I will continue to do so for as long as I possibly can.
However because of this I very often get people coming to me saying that they can not read my writing, despite it being clear and fully legible for anyone who has stuck to this way of writing.

I for one believe that we should not allow for cursive writing to be 'killed off' in replace for electronic alternatives. I take my stand and carry my Sheaffer Targa 1026x with me everywhere.

"Distrust, Confirm, then still be Suspicious"

 


#28 GabrielleDuVent

GabrielleDuVent

    The Sylph Scribe of the Unseelie Court, 2nd Class

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,238 posts
  • Location:Gardens of the Moon
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:52

I agree with everything being said, however here in the UK cursive writing was still being taught, and as far as I am aware still is. As when I was of primary school age, we were not given a choice - write in smooth joining cursive or not write at all.
However most people have chosen to drop this way of writing simply because of the time it takes over standard block text - for them anyway.

I, however, still write in cursive - despite being only 16 years of age.
I also only use a fountain pen in all my time in secondary education and I will continue to do so for as long as I possibly can.
However because of this I very often get people coming to me saying that they can not read my writing, despite it being clear and fully legible for anyone who has stuck to this way of writing.

I for one believe that we should not allow for cursive writing to be 'killed off' in replace for electronic alternatives. I take my stand and carry my Sheaffer Targa 1026x with me everywhere.

 

Unfortunately, you are very fortunate (and that's one odd sentence). None of my friends learned cursive, and I sometimes get complaints that they can't read what I write. :S

 

On the other note, I just read a report that 20+% of Americans are functionally illiterate, and about the same in the UK! Should we even be debating the validity of cursives any longer? I'm not going to demand an illiterate person to write anything at all, let alone in cursive... 1 in 7 Americans can't read an article on USA Today.

 

Yikes.


Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,

Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;

Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié. 

 

-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923


#29 Techi

Techi

    Mint

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPip
  • 54 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:31

 
On the other note, I just read a report that 20+% of Americans are functionally illiterate, and about the same in the UK!



Wow that is shocking, how can people even make it thus far and not be needing to read or write?
This is what the UK and US governments should be spending thier money on!

"Distrust, Confirm, then still be Suspicious"

 


#30 GabrielleDuVent

GabrielleDuVent

    The Sylph Scribe of the Unseelie Court, 2nd Class

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,238 posts
  • Location:Gardens of the Moon
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:52

Wow that is shocking, how can people even make it thus far and not be needing to read or write?
This is what the UK and US governments should be spending thier money on!

 

Quite easily, it appears. I know people who "read" what's written in chat rooms/fora/Twitter/Facebook, and that's pretty much all they read. 

 

This is the average level I see online these days (NSFW: do NOT read it if you cannot laugh out loud):

 

 

Note: I will not be responsible for any damage incurred, physical, emotional, or to your reputation, whatsoever. 


Edited by GabrielleDuVent, 01 July 2013 - 09:55.

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,

Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;

Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié. 

 

-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923


#31 Vendome

Vendome

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,443 posts
  • Location:Bowker Vale, Manchester
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 16:38

Oh dear me. The narrator of the above clip sounds like the robotic male voice setting on my Kindle.


Long reign the House of Belmont.


#32 RMN

RMN

    Ancient Artifact

  • FPN Super Moderators

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,210 posts
  • Location:the Netherlands
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:06

Does your Kindle also get the   :lticaptd:  in the end?

 

 

D.ick


~

 

KEEP SAFE, KEEP INSIDE, KEEP A DISTANCE.

 

Freedom exists by virtue of self limitation.

 

 

~

 


#33 Vendome

Vendome

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,443 posts
  • Location:Bowker Vale, Manchester
  • Flag:

Posted 01 July 2013 - 19:16

Does your Kindle also get the   :lticaptd:  in the end?

 

 

D.ick

 

I couldn't honestly say. When I first got my Kindle I tried out the Text-to-Speech facility, but after one sentence I turned the voice off. A Dalek sounds better! Even the 1960s Cybermen have better diction. :D


Edited by Vendome, 01 July 2013 - 19:20.

Long reign the House of Belmont.


#34 sangrisano

sangrisano

    Extremely Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts
  • Location:Varese
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 05:26

Interesting discussion... I'm an IT consultant that uses powerpoint-like slides a lot, but I'm gradually replacing most of them with whiteboarding sessions: they are much more effective with customers. I also teach in two universities, where I use slides AND whiteboards, and encourage my sudents to take notes during my lectures, because slides (if well done) only show you major items to help focus attention, but are not meant to be fully explanatory.

 

While I believe technology helps achieve faster results, it shouldn't replace the processor everyone (weel, allmost everyone) has between the ears... when my daughter was in primary school, she was allowed to use a calculator - but only after having demonstrated she could do the same exercise using paper and pen.


Arguing with a woman is like reading a Software License Agreement.
In the end, you ignore everything and click "I agree".


#35 HDoug

HDoug

    First Class Forever

  • FPN Super Moderators

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,827 posts
  • Location:Honolulu, Hawaii, USA
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 07:22

With my moderator hat on, I thank everyone for keeping this discussion interesting yet civil. It has veered a bit one way then another and has burned some tire tracks but has never actually left the road or hit anything. Not trying to back seat drive, but kinda am.

Doug



#36 slacker.lax

slacker.lax

    Near Mint

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPip
  • 33 posts
  • Location:New Delhi
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 13:18

 

Quite easily, it appears. I know people who "read" what's written in chat rooms/fora/Twitter/Facebook, and that's pretty much all they read. 

 

This is the average level I see online these days (NSFW: do NOT read it if you cannot laugh out loud):

 

 

Note: I will not be responsible for any damage incurred, physical, emotional, or to your reputation, whatsoever. 

I stopped at 0.39 or something. It sounded like mind control emission. Jeez!!


I was spending my time in a doldrums, I was caught in a cauldron of hate. I felt persecuted and paralysed, I thought that everything else would just wait.

#37 slacker.lax

slacker.lax

    Near Mint

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPip
  • 33 posts
  • Location:New Delhi
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 13:28

Being on the topic, I would say, where I live and where I have been brought up, partly India and partly Nepal; there is I guess, hardly ever any signs of taught cursive if any. But, I have yet to see a kid working on his/her cursive copybooks! I dont even remember what I was taught. Definitely not any script.  I remember it being, though vaguely, some kind of printing. And I have been always a horrible writer up until now. I have sought help from good and knowledgeable people over here to guide me and show me as good a resource as "IAMPETH". I picked up E.C. Mills and its been around an year and still I practice. Since then, just a single person who lives nearby showed some interest in learning cursive and literally got hooked up. I must say, I really got him very interested and he is too, learning from quite a time the E.C.Mills book and has recently shown, great progress. I have posted since then several threads, if I remember correct, to take feedback. But, thats another story.

 

But, I guess if there was one question to be asked perusing on the might be possible extinction of handwriting art and skills, shall it be "Is it really possible and viable in the near future that there comes no need of any penholding or any need to write at all?", which again forces to think, "So, how is something as elegant and beautiful writing styles like cursives shouldn't be taught at all?"  :sick:


I was spending my time in a doldrums, I was caught in a cauldron of hate. I felt persecuted and paralysed, I thought that everything else would just wait.

#38 Waski_the_Squirrel

Waski_the_Squirrel

    Forum Squirrel

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,087 posts
  • Location:North Dakota
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 13:35

PowerPoint is a tool. Done well, it's very effective for presentations. Most people do not do it well.

 

As a teacher, I occasionally use PowerPoint. I most often use the whiteboard and actually prefer chalk. I find I don't have time to do PowerPoint well, so I generally just pick a handful of lessons each year to use it with.

 

The main thing is the presentation. Reading a PowerPoint is awful. Using it as a support is great. Also, the presenter should remember the attention span of the audience and to keep the audience engaged. I expect my students to keep notes. Most handwrite. One handwrites with a stylus on her iPad. Math and science (my subjects) don't lend themselves to rapid typing of notes.

 

As for the cursive: very few of my high school students use cursive. Most prefer to print. I don't much care what they do as long as I can read it.


Proud resident of the least visited state in the nation!

#39 sangrisano

sangrisano

    Extremely Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts
  • Location:Varese
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 19:12

Probably I'm biased. When I was in primary school, we started writing in cursive (something very similar to Roundhand) with a pencil, and after 3 months turned to penholder, nibs and ink.  The ability to write avoiding ink spots and stains on the notebook was considered crucial.

I now use penholder and nibs just for my calligraphy exercises, and use fountain pens for all the rest.


Arguing with a woman is like reading a Software License Agreement.
In the end, you ignore everything and click "I agree".


#40 thang1thang2

thang1thang2

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 02 July 2013 - 20:10

 

The main thing is the presentation. Reading a PowerPoint is awful. Using it as a support is great. Also, the presenter should remember the attention span of the audience and to keep the audience engaged. I expect my students to keep notes. Most handwrite. One handwrites with a stylus on her iPad. Math and science (my subjects) don't lend themselves to rapid typing of notes.

 

 

Math and science! My favorite subjects! Please tell me, what particular types of math and science do you teach? Physics and calculus, general science and perhaps algebra 2? Just curious.

 

As for powerpoints, I whole-heartedly agree. Besides, I find that many people learn far better when you actually draw things through better. One interesting thing is to get a smart-board and then draw all your diagrams and everything with little notes and thus, in essence, "create" your notes during the lecture. You can then set the program to save the entire thing as a .pdf and then email it to all the students at night. If they copied your board verbatim, they would have the minimum notes required and they would learn what's necessary for notes and what's not.

 

You can also just take pictures of the white board...

 

But, yes, I much prefer handwriting math/science notes in general. Even if you get really really good at LaTeX and typing out horrendous formulas, it's still just so frustrating and you pay too much attention to the typing rather than learning the content. 

 

(As to your signature: North Dakota is a surprisingly awesome place. Del Tynsdale lives there, along with several members of the Spencer family. Bet you didn't know that!)







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: cursive, education



Sponsored Content




|