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Anybody Seen This Before? Stick With Me For A Few Sentences, Please...


ever onward

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Regarding Nakayas with frogs or lizards... :unsure:

 

Hey, thanks!--I missed this post somehow.

 

Your custom pens sounds beautiful. And get this--what a weird coincidence--I JUST, for the first time ever, read the quote that you're having split between those two pens! It's in one of my books of calligraphic works...I can't remember which one. How bizarre!

 

Please post pics of your pens when you get them.

 

thx & best wishes,

eo

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. --Albert Einstein

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One positive conclusion of this thread maybe that now I know for sure that Nakaya uses the natural Urushi for their pens.

 

What made you skeptical? Interesting...

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. --Albert Einstein

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What made you skeptical? Interesting...

 

Urushi is actually very expensive to collect, and not very eco-friendly at all, because after collecting the sap, they cut down the trees most of the time. It's one-time collecting method. There are now "urushi-made" utensils (cups, bowls) that aren't actually made of them.

 

Those who are allergic to urushiol can get allergic reactions just by walking by the trees, and the Japanese get warnings from infancy to not go near it. I don't think Nakaya realised that foreigners don't get this warning. You can build tolerance to it, and the buds were traditionally eaten by urushi artisans to build tolerance so they could work with it w/o having reactions (it's apparently very tasty, but I'm allergic to mangos, so that's one delicacy I'd never try).

 

If it's properly treated, it should not be causing anyone allergic reactions. My guess is that the polymerisation wasn't complete when it was used for the pen. I guess eat a lot of mangos to build tolerance?

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,


Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;


Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié.



-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923

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Lots of interesting information here, it's been quite a while since I read every reply in a Post.

Could a wax be applied to the pen to seal it? Or does the urushi require breathing?

I doubt anything will slow down Nakaya sales and orders though, the pens are compellingly beautiful.

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I recall hearing that *most* people can handle cured Urushi without issue; however, some will have a reaction to even cured Urushi.

 

If I recall correctly Urushi cures fastest in a warm humid environment. I believe the curing reaction requires water vapour.

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The "curing" is actually a polymerisation reaction. I was terrible at organic chemistry, I'm sure we have a resident chemist who'd be better qualified at explaining the exact polymerisation reaction. Basically, what happens is the water vapour that contains laccase (oxidises phenols) reacts with the urushiol (or whatever other phenol it is; this depends on the region) and hardens due to polymerisation. It requires humidity (for water vapour) and warm temperature (to trigger oxidation and to form water vapour).

 

Mangos are actually in the urushi family, so if you want to build tolerance, eat mangos (or keep licking the pen, I suppose, but that doesn't seem very hygienic). Since the hardened polymer contains double polymers, UV will destroy the chain and deteriorate it. Otherwise, it's fairly inert.

 

/end chemistry lesson

Edited by GabrielleDuVent

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,


Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;


Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié.



-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923

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:( I've been washing my hands religiously and being REALLY careful, but I've still managed to spread this to my forehead and cheek. And note I don't even have the pen right now.

 

Thanks for all the information, everyone. I do love mangoes. :) Also I live in central Maryland, a summertime swamp, so maybe my pen will cure quickly.

 

-eo

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. --Albert Einstein

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The "curing" is actually a polymerisation reaction. I was terrible at organic chemistry, I'm sure we have a resident chemist who'd be better qualified at explaining the exact polymerisation reaction. Basically, what happens is the water vapour that contains laccase (oxidises phenols) reacts with the urushiol (or whatever other phenol it is; this depends on the region) and hardens due to polymerisation. It requires humidity (for water vapour) and warm temperature (to trigger oxidation and to form water vapour).

/end chemistry lesson

Ever Onward -

 

The allergic reaction you are describing is rather severe and I would urge you to be very cautious about handling lacquer pens in the future.

 

It seems to me there are two possibilities here: (1) that there is a significant amount of uncured urushiol in your particular pen, and (2) that there are only traces of uncured urushiol present but you are unusually sensitive.

 

The curing (polymerization) of urushiol is promoted by the laccase enzyme (the enzyme is not in water vapor, it is also derived from the lacquer tree) and requires oxygen. Curing can also be induced by UV light without the enzyme. Essentially everyone is very sensitive to urushiol, but I always thought that after curing, the amount of free urushiol is negligible at most in lacquer products. Fully cured lacquer does not cause allergic reactions. Perhaps somehow your pen was not completely cured for some reason and has a large amount of unpolymerized urushiol.

 

The other possibility seems to me more likely, though. I would suggest that you see an MD allergist to discuss this. The sensitivity of different individuals to various allergens varies widely. Perhaps you are just unusually sensitive to urushiol and there are just traces in the pen. A concern I have is that people very often become more and more sensitive to a particular allergen upon further exposures. If this is the case, you would be well advised to not handle that pen, and perhaps any lacquer pen, in the future. I hope that is not the case, but in any event, considering the severity of the reaction you describe, I suggest you seek a medical opinion.

Nihon no urushi ga hitsuyo de!

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Well, urushiol tolerance can be built. Dunno why you'd go to that extent to use lacquer pen, though. I do love pens but it seems too itchy to go about that way.

 

If it's natural urushi, do not expose it to UV light. UV Urushi is not natural, as it has additives to make it UV-proof. Natural urushi deteriorates under UV.

 

There are no medications for urushi allergy. There are some "Grandma's cures" around, but they're a bit bogus such as "stew bracken and goethelphusa dehaani (a sort of a crab... very yummy), and apply the stewed liquid to the rash".

 

(I misread about the water vapour, btw. It utilises laccase and oxygen; the character difference is about 4 strokes and the left side of the character is the same. So apologies.)

 

Apparently I got a reaction as a child, when I went for a walk with my parents. Since I was about three, I do not remember the incident very well, but I remember being told "don't you scratch any place, or you'll spread it".

 

The standard treatment is to administer betamethasone (anti-allergic), serrapeptase (calms down inflammation), and steroids (cortisone) for the rash, but it will take up to a week for it to have any effect. The rash will remain for two to three weeks.

 

In the meanwhile, ice the locations where it itches the worst. Some have applied castor oil to see some success. Warm shower and bath would make it worse, and use natural soap (most commercially sold soaps are detergents, not a mixture of fat and lye).

 

It's about as common in Japan as poison ivy allergy, and there really aren't any cure... you have about 10 days to go. Hang in there!

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,


Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;


Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié.



-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923

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Thanks, everyone. Really: thank you.

 

ever onward

Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.

The important thing is not to stop questioning. --Albert Einstein

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Go to a pharmacy get Technu and Calagel. It may be a bit late for the Technu for your current condition but keep it around for any future exposure. I've used both and they do work for poison ivy so should work for urushi sensitivity.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

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This has been an interesting thread. I just discovered that I seem to have an allergy to the skins of mangos, at least of the yellow variety. I suppose I should avoid urushi, too.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives everything its value.--Thomas Paine, "The American Crisis", 1776

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This has been an interesting thread. I just discovered that I seem to have an allergy to the skins of mangos, at least of the yellow variety. I suppose I should avoid urushi, too.

 

If you are allergic to mangos, stay away from urushi. I'm allergic to urushi, and I cannot eat mangos; they make my mouth itch and it makes me want to rip my tongue out. They're in the same family.

 

Cured urushi isn't supposed to have this itchy problem, but sometimes the curing is not quite complete before it hits the market. If you're in Japan you can take it to an urushi artisan and have something done to it, but if you're outside Asia, then that's going to be a little more difficult. Over time the polymerisation completes and the urushi becomes inert, though, so lacquered pens from the 70s or 80s should be okay.

 

The new ones, I'd stay away from it...

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,


Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;


Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié.



-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923

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Go to a pharmacy get Technu and Calagel. It may be a bit late for the Technu for your current condition but keep it around for any future exposure. I've used both and they do work for poison ivy so should work for urushi sensitivity.

 

Calagel is very effective. I am allergic to "normal" ivy (hedera helix) and react in the same way as some folk react to poison ivy, the calagel is about the only thing that helps significantly. Ivy (hedera helix) and poison ivy are not related- it is a totally different chemical and there is no cross-reaction between ivy and poison ivy- in ordinary ivy the allergic component is falcarinol, in poison ivy it is urushiol- and as falcarinol is in several plants in the carrot and ivy family, I can cross-react with plants like hogweed and fatsia japonica. I found out after I kept developing the rash that falcarinol reaction is fairly well-documented in the literature but not at all well-known about medically. Different allergen, but exactly the same type of allergic immune system reaction.

 

I find that my skin starts to blister 48 to 72 hours after exposure, and the rash gets worse for a week, becoming weeping and itchy. The thing to watch at this stage is infection as it ends up raw. Eventually the damaged skin falls off, leaves it looking like a burn, then eventually it heals. Expect at least a week for healing then a scar. The scars do eventually go after several months. Using calagel in the early stages helps, a topical steroid can help in the first couple days but once the skin is broken is not a good idea as can get infected more easily. An antihistamine tablet is a good idea, but check with the doc to get an appropriate one, some work better for skin rashes than others. If the area affected is significant, take the antihistamines, really is worthwhile as if the exposure is bad the effect can go systemic.

 

I learnt all this (and finally worked out it was hedera helix causing the reaction) the hard way over a couple of years, not a nice experience. The worst time I had was after pulling ivy off a wall in the early summer, both forearms and hands covered in wheals and rash, then the rash got infected (needed antibiotics as I was geting fevered) and took ages to heal. I took antihistamines for a couple weeks at least that time. Since then I've worked out a careful protocol of how to treat the rash if I get exposed without realising, this minimises the effect as much as possible and I also discovered Calagel. Calagel and Technu are effective but difficult to get outside the US, but in UK can be bought through Amazon.

 

It was difficult to get info in UK as the type of reaction is relatively rare. Also note I developed the reaction late in life, from gardening. I have now had ALL of the ivy removed from my garden, so exposure is rare but occasionally I do brush against ivy somewhere.

 

Whatever you do, don't ignore the reaction, and be aware it can get worse with each exposure. If I had your evidence of being sensitive to Urushiol (fortunately I am not)! and owned Nakaya pens, at the least I would want to be properly allergy tested for urushiol reaction, that way you will know for sure and can make an informed choice about whether to buy any more urushi pens (and also to avoid poison ivy and other plants that produce urushiol).

 

'Cat

Edited by SignalboxCat

"Relay"

SignalboxCat

 

 

speak truth unto power

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It is ironic that you asked people to bare with you and keep reading, as I wish I didn't.

 

The linked article in Wikepedia was very informative, and the thread is interesting. HOWEVER, I SAW THIS sentence in the article:

 

"Buddhist monks who practiced the art of Sokushinbutsu would use the tree's sap in their ceremony."

 

 

and interested, clicked on the link. The Sokushinbutsu that is described is to me a particularly hideous and gruesome slow suicide.

 

I really wish I hadn't read about it. I am not particularly squimish, I am an MD (a shrink, but I have had plenty of experience with gore).

 

I guess the warning should go in the Wikepedia article. I suspect whoever wrote the sentence about "the art of Sokushinbutsu" is sadistic!

Cheers,

 

“It’s better to light a candle than curse the darkness

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It is ironic that you asked people to bare with you and keep reading, as I wish I didn't.

 

The linked article in Wikepedia was very informative, and the thread is interesting. HOWEVER, I SAW THIS sentence in the article:

 

"Buddhist monks who practiced the art of Sokushinbutsu would use the tree's sap in their ceremony."

 

 

and interested, clicked on the link. The Sokushinbutsu that is described is to me a particularly hideous and gruesome slow suicide.

 

I really wish I hadn't read about it. I am not particularly squimish, I am an MD (a shrink, but I have had plenty of experience with gore).

 

I guess the warning should go in the Wikepedia article. I suspect whoever wrote the sentence about "the art of Sokushinbutsu" is sadistic!

 

It's not really gruesome, actually, just a Mikkyo practice. The idea was to gain eternal life through death and to offer salvation (or help offer) to all living things.

 

It is not gory, or it's not supposed to be. Drawing and quartering is gory. The basic idea was the same as Jesus' crucifixion; to carry people's suffering and to dedicate last moments to prayer, and to help those suffering onto the path of salvation at the cost of one's own life, until Maitreya descends 5 billion years after Buddha died.

 

Here's a link for those interested.

 

I'd request foreigners to not call these religious practices terms such as "gruesome" and "hideous" without knowing the rudimentary reasons for the practice. Buddhism isn't the Church of Flying Spaghetti Monster, it is still practised today and saves thousands of Dalit in India. Religion is a touchy subject, and it is best not to talk about it.

Edited by GabrielleDuVent

Tes rires retroussés comme à son bord la rose,


Effacent mon dépit de ta métamorphose;


Tu t'éveilles, alors le rêve est oublié.



-Jean Cocteau, from Plaint-Chant, 1923

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Sadly, it's not all that uncommon for people to bash on traditional remedies. I can kinda understand since they do sometimes sound a bit silly, but considering how efficacious a lot of them are, it's not always warranted. In my case, I went through a fairly severe case of "caterpillar envenomation", I think the English term would be. My entire left arm and maybe a quarter of my torso was covered with INSANELY itchy rashes. Bathing in boiled guava leaves sounded a bit weird at first, and I smelled... interesting for quite a few days, but hey, it worked.

 

Anyway, this is the first I've ever heard of anyone developing a rash from urushi. Thankfully, I'm more or less okay with mangoes, so there shouldn't be a problem with my getting an urushi pen. That's great, since I've had my eyes on a dew models from Nakaya for quite a while now. I'm just sad to hear that the entire tree gets sacrificed for the sake of making a single pen. A lovely pen, the case usually is, but still.

 

Hmm, doesn't that make it sound as if the soul of the tree gets infused into the pen afterwards?

 

... Sorry, went off on a tangent there XD

"The price of an object should not only be what you had to pay for it, but also what you've had to sacrifice in order to obtain it." - <i>The Wisdom of The Internet</i><p class='bbc_center'><center><img src="http://i59.tinypic.com/jr4g43.jpg"/></center>

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There are some case of reactions to preservatives in so-called anti-bacterial hand-wash products. Often one of the 'imidazolidinyl urea' family. Probably not a natural chemical substance - I didn't do well at chemistry, apart from the photographic course and a little bit about explosives.

My point being that it's possible that reactions now being attributed to pens made from urushi or whatever, might not just be brought on by contact to them.

If I'd paid $500+ for a custom pen and developed a rash - I'd start wearing hypo-allergenic gloves; get to live with it and enjoy my pen. Sorry - investment.

The Good Captain

"Meddler's 'Salamander' - almost as good as the real thing!"

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You're not

 

There are some case of reactions to preservatives in so-called anti-bacterial hand-wash products. Often one of the 'imidazolidinyl urea' family. Probably not a natural chemical substance - I didn't do well at chemistry, apart from the photographic course and a little bit about explosives.

My point being that it's possible that reactions now being attributed to pens made from urushi or whatever, might not just be brought on by contact to them.

If I'd paid $500+ for a custom pen and developed a rash - I'd start wearing hypo-allergenic gloves; get to live with it and enjoy my pen. Sorry - investment.

Gloves often can't protect against urushiol (I speak from experience). Being an oil, it's very easy to transfer from one surface to another even when one is being extremely careful, and the "other" is usually the face. Also, longer exposure can worsen allergies, rather than build up tolerances.

 

Better to let the investment cure awhile longer and test it out carefully after a few months.

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Wow -- I was always worried about a similar thing happening to me as to the OP. I'm extremely sensitive to poison ivy (which is bad because there's a fair amount in my yard; I try to garden organically as much as possible, but when it comes to that stuff *all* bets are off and I'd use Agent Orange if I could get my hands on it... :roller1:).

The rash goes systemic on me, which means that if I come into contact with it and don't catch it to wash the oils off my skin within 30 minutes I will have an outbreak that could last a couple of MONTHS; last time it took 2 courses of prednisone treatments to clear up, after the prednisolone I was given at the ER was completely useless (and the first run of prednisone merely suppressed the rash temporarily).

I got to try someone's urushi pen at a pen club meeting a few weeks ago. Beautiful pen (although a bit large for my hand); but then I *immediately* went and washed my hands well, just to be on the safe side.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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