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What Color Is Sheaffer's White Dot?


Pincel

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I recently acquired a cheapie NOS Classic Black Balance II roller ball pen from fleaBay. Converting it into a fountain pen is as easy as 1-2-3: just swap the the sections and that's it! No need to remove the spring inside the barrel. It accepted my No Nonsense, Balance II, and Connie sections fitted with a cartridge converter and with a squeeze converted. It rejected the piston converter; I guess I have to do the usual surgical removal of the spring to use that converter.

 

fpn_1356332005__whitedot.jpg

 

Something unusual with this Balance II, it is non White Dot. It has yellow/orange dot instead! Is this a regular production pen? A production variance? Or did it just discolor because of age?

 

Ben R

Edited by Pincel

fpn_1434850097__cocursive.jpg

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"white" dot....? "white", i think. my balance's -from the 40's- is yellowish now, tho'.

 

edited to add: i like your avatar! :thumbup:

Edited by lovemy51
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Hello,

 

Green, Blue... Not, it is much simpler. It is a White Dot like that figures as logo registered 217,404 and is his origin as bull's eye -or center of a dartboard-. Definitively White.

 

Regards from Spain

 

 

 

Footnote. Occasionally we can see of color as yours or different these that I attach but they obey discolorations for absorption of particles color of the inks.

post-83856-0-41414000-1356364586.jpg

post-83856-0-85187500-1356364598.jpg

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By the way, the jet black fountain pen to the right had two White Dots when it came to me. One, in the barrel and another, in the cap, but it was not a mistake ... the barrel should have a Lady ring top cap -White Dot at the barrel end- but someone, in some moment, changed it to a cap of clip of another model -White Dot at the cap top-.

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Green, Blue... Not, it is much simpler. It is a White Dot like that figures as logo registered 217,404 and is his origin as bull's eye -or center of a dartboard-.

Just to be clear, this is speculation on your part; I am aware of no specific information that Sheaffer intended the White Dot logo to resemble a bullseye when they designed it (the earliest ads showing the Dot make no such reference, for example), though if you have evidence to the contrary I would be interested to see it.

 

Footnote. Occasionally we can see of color as yours or different these that I attach but they obey discolorations for absorption of particles color of the inks.

Note that your Jade example shown does not have an ink-discolored White Dot; rather, the cap has a plug of jade celluloid which probably matched the surrounding material at the time it was done, likely the result of a factory conversion from a White Dot Lifetime pen to a non-Lifetime model, perhaps as part of a late sell-off of pens or parts. Note the presence of typical Jade patterning in the "dot".

 

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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No problem.

 

The Bull´s Eye is a motto and slogan from minute one of Sheaffer´S as you can see in your first catalog for example. see photo. If you dont see evidence well, okay, but there is evidences.

 

Sheaffer's warranty is also from minute one because they left you the Sheaffer´S fp for a month to test.

 

White Dot -no Other Color Dot- is a trademark granted to Sheaffer Pen Co with number 217,404 on 1926.08.30 -filed 1925.03.14 but was in use from 25.09.1924-.

 

The green dot on Sheaffer´S jade was for ink because the ink was green. The blue dot at the end of Sheaffer´S jet black is blue because the ink was blue... and the first photo had some particles of red ink, safe. Evidences since the Radite -and other pyroxylin marks- absorbs gases -reservoir ink hard rubber, shellac- and liquids -inks- "ambaring" the colors there are to million.

 

If your you have some evidence of "Other Colors" Dot or how it came near to the logo of concentric circles that represents the White Dot I will be quite ears.

 

It is a pleasure.

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The topic is: What Color Is Sheaffer's White Dot?.

 

Its White based in:

 

1) Sheaffer have registered the concept "WHITE DOT" and no other colors.

2) In any Sheaffer´s catalog -I have over 20 from 1913 to 1950- nor Sheaffer´s ad relates to another color.

3) Additional 1. The Bull´s Eye -probable origin- is, traditionally, white.

4) Additional 2. We have millons evidences of ambaring colors in the first cellulloid.

 

So, the White Dot is, white, that is the question that motivates the topic.

post-83856-0-57256000-1356427316.jpg

Edited by lazard
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No problem.

 

The Bull´s Eye is a motto and slogan from minute one of Sheaffer´S as you can see in your first catalog for example. see photo. If you dont see evidence well, okay, but there is evidences.

There is no question that Sheaffer used the "Bull's Eye of Perfection" slogan in very early marketing materials, but they stopped using that phrase and imagery many years before the introduction of the White Dot, and, as I noted, the earliest ads that show --and discuss -- the White Dot make no reference whatsoever to it representing a bullseye. Therefore, I think it is accurate to characterize what you've claimed as "speculation". A good deal of misinformation has entered our hobby's lore due to jumps from speculation to unqualified assertion.

 

Sheaffer's warranty is also from minute one because they left you the Sheaffer´S fp for a month to test.

Assuming arguendo that this is accurate, the existence of such a trial period program is irrelevant to the question of the origin of the White Dot. Note that a one-month trial period for a pen does not have any resemblance to a lifetime guarantee on certain models' nibs.

 

The green dot on Sheaffer´S jade was for ink because the ink was green.

Not so. As can clearly be seen, the inset "dot" in your example has the swirling patterning of Sheaffer's Jade Radite celluloid. It is not a dot of another color; it is a plug of jade material that likely was intended to match the rest of the cap, and it is reasonable to speculate that this was done to replace a White Dot, thus converting a pen from a Lifetime model to a non-Lifetime model. Examples with this characteristic are seen from time to time.

 

If your you have some evidence of "Other Colors" Dot or how it came near to the logo of concentric circles that represents the White Dot I will be quite ears.

I don't believe Sheaffer used another color of dot, nor have I made such a claim.

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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The topic is: What Color Is Sheaffer's White Dot?.

 

Its White based in:

 

...

 

3) Additional 1. The Bull´s Eye -probable origin- is, traditionally, white.

Again, note that this origin claim is speculative. I would be interested in your evidence that the bullseye of a target is traditionally white. Archery targets' center circle is gold, and if you think about the very term "bullseye", it would seem most odd if the center were white; is the center of a bull's eye white?

 

--Daniel

Edited by kirchh

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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I agree with Daniel that the "Bullseye of Perfection" has no bearing on the whit dot as Sheaffer ran that ad briefly about a decade before the white dot was introduced. We have many examples of white dots being plugged to create non white dot or non lifetime pens. The white dot was always white though many discolorations exist leading to Ebay ads of red dots particularly and these are on red pens with bleed over.

 

Roger W.

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Merry Christmas!!, Daniel.

Thank you, though in my case it will be a Merry Chinese-Food-and-Movie day (I'm Jewish).

 

Do you have any comment on the points that I made?

 

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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Yellow a center of a target... in 1924?

 

There a bull eyes and bull eyes.

 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

bull's-eye or bull's eye (blz)

n.

1.

a. The small central circle on a target.

b. A shot that hits this circle.

2.

 

--------------------------------------------------

Bull’s Eye

A common adjective referring to a rounded appearance, lesion, mass or pattern that is circumferentially rimmed by 2+ distinct densities or colours; the inner circle is often dark—or radiopaque—rimmed by a lighter—or radiolucent—ring that in turn is surrounded by a third, dark or radiopaque circle; the opposite—light-dark-light—has been called a doughnut pattern.

 

Like you do not see this bull´s eye is not a animal eye either you see that the White Dot -in 1924 remenber flat top and black- is the center of a target.

 

I said, Merry Christmas.

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Yellow a center of a target... in 1924?

 

There a bull eyes and bull eyes.

 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

bull's-eye or bull's eye (blz)

n.

1.

a. The small central circle on a target.

b. A shot that hits this circle.

2.

 

--------------------------------------------------

Bull’s Eye

A common adjective referring to a rounded appearance, lesion, mass or pattern that is circumferentially rimmed by 2+ distinct densities or colours; the inner circle is often dark—or radiopaque—rimmed by a lighter—or radiolucent—ring that in turn is surrounded by a third, dark or radiopaque circle; the opposite—light-dark-light—has been called a doughnut pattern.

 

Like you do not see this bull´s eye is not a animal eye either you see that the White Dot -in 1924 remenber flat top and black- is the center of a target.

 

I said, Merry Christmas.

 

Just to be clear on this topic - the white dot has nothing to do with a bull's eye or target. None of the white dot literature supports such a conclusion. To reference the trademark filing - "a white circular figure or dot..." with no inference to a target or bullseye.

 

Roger W.

Edited by Roger W.
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This topis ended. The White Dot is... White.

 

 

No obstantly taking advantage that you are moving towards the light, so you can to open another topic about Sheaffer´s history and I will make you learn.

 

You have learned that the White Dot is ... white.

 

You have learned that bull's eye is the center of a target and not an animal eye -especially when the text accompanying a target painted-

 

You have learned that the first White Dot was in a flat top black with a white circle, concentric, in the center.

 

You have learned that the first Sheaffer catalog represented a target.

 

Your will learn that the Sheaffer´s film made during the II WW was entitled "Right to the Point". Sound familiar?. What is the point?

 

and so on.

 

Bye, bye!

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hello, Lazzard.

 

i dig the bull's eye theory you presented. it sounds reasonable. but, in the Ad picture you show it states in spanish (second party offering an explanation) that the bull's eye (spanish: "blanco" for bull's eye, which means "white") is "maybe" the original idea "that later became it's logo the 'white dot'". it doesn't state it categorically. it does sound like speculation -i think this was pointed out by Daniel.

Edited by lovemy51
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Yellow a center of a target... in 1924?

To be precise, the bullseye of an archery target is, and was, gold; in fact, the bullseye was sometimes called "the gold". I'm not sure why you are surprised at the existence of a gold bullseye in 1924; there is reason to believe the bullseye was gold even in medieval times. Here is a description from 1856:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/1856_Gold_Bullseye_Reference.jpg

 

Here's another, from 1862:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/1862_Gold_Bullseye_Reference.jpg

 

And, if you consider it important, here's one from 1924:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/1924_Gold_Bullseye_Reference.jpg

 

 

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

bull's-eye or bull's eye (blz)

n.

1.

a. The small central circle on a target.

b. A shot that hits this circle.

2.

 

--------------------------------------------------

Bull’s Eye

A common adjective referring to a rounded appearance, lesion, mass or pattern that is circumferentially rimmed by 2+ distinct densities or colours; the inner circle is often dark—or radiopaque—rimmed by a lighter—or radiolucent—ring that in turn is surrounded by a third, dark or radiopaque circle; the opposite—light-dark-light—has been called a doughnut pattern.

The definition you provide contradicts your assertion about the center of a bullseye being white. It specifically says,

 

"the inner circle is often dark"

 

Here's a detail from an advertising piece from around 1915:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Black_Bullseye_Detail.jpg

 

What color is the bullseye?

 

Have you examined the dark green circle in the top of your jade pen's cap and verified that it is, in fact, a disk of Jade celluloid?

 

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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hello, Lazzard.

 

i dig the bull's eye theory you presented. it sounds reasonable. but, in the Ad picture you show it states in spanish (second party offering an explanation) that the bull's eye (spanish: "blanco" for bull's eye, which means "white") is "maybe" the original idea "that later became it's logo the 'white dot'". it doesn't state it categorically. it does sound like speculation -i think this was pointed out by Daniel.

 

In effect, Walter A. Sheaffer did not say it to me. But, about your "51", George S. Parker either did not say to me that he was referring to the kingdom of the fountain-pens or to the country of the fountain-pens when, in relation with "51", it named them " The jewels of Pendom ". He did not say it to me but was referring to the " jewel of the kingdom of the fountain-pens ", though he yes said to me that he liked it the picnics in family. :P

post-83856-0-73894000-1356392758.jpg

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Like you do not see this bull´s eye is not a animal eye either you see that the White Dot -in 1924 remenber flat top and black- is the center of a target.

Not so; the color of Radite flat top that first had the White Dot was Jade, not black, as the trademark specimen shows. So the White Dot was surrounded by a swirly green circle, not a black one.

 

--Daniel

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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This topis ended. The White Dot is... White.

No one has disagreed that the White Dot is white. But now we are exploring the origin of that symbol and related matters, such as the color of an archery target's bullseye, and the appearance of the White Dot on the first pens. These are fair subjects for discussion in this thread.

 

No obstantly taking advantage that you are moving towards the light, so you can to open another topic about Sheaffer´s history and I will make you learn.

I always enjoying learning more about Sheaffer's history. This topic is an excellent one for discussing the origin and appearance of Sheaffer's White Dot logo.

 

You have learned that the White Dot is ... white.

Well, at least in my case, I already knew that.

 

You have learned that bull's eye is the center of a target and not an animal eye -especially when the text accompanying a target painted-

I think you misunderstood my point. I was explaining that the word "Bull's Eye" was applied to a target because of the target's resemblance to the eye of a bull, and I pointed out that the center of the eye of a bull is not white.

 

You have learned that the first White Dot was in a flat top black with a white circle, concentric, in the center.

You are mistaken. The first White Dot Radite pen was Jade green. So, now you have learned something!

 

You have learned that the first Sheaffer catalog represented a target.

Well, of course the cover of that catalog is not new to some of us, myself included, so I didn't learn anything from your posting of it. And, as I pointed out, there was a gap of about ten years between the appearance of that catalog and the creation of the White Dot, so for a decade, Sheaffer didn't make any reference to a target, either in words or pictures, leaving your conclusion that the White Dot represents a bullseye as speculative at best.

 

Your will learn that the Sheaffer´s film made during the II WW was entitled "Right to the Point". Sound familiar?. What is the point?

I have no idea what you mean. The point is the part of the pen that touches the paper and delivers the ink (also called the "pen" or the "nib").

 

and so on.

Was there more?

 

I do want to point out that you have learned that the center of an archery bullseye is gold, and was gold in 1924, and also that the first Radite pen with a White Dot was Jade Green, not black.

 

--Daniel

Edited by kirchh

"The greatest mental derangement is to believe things because we want them to be true, not because we observe that they are in effect." --Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet

Daniel Kirchheimer
Specialty Pen Restoration
Authorized Sheaffer/Parker/Waterman Vintage Repair Center
Purveyor of the iCroScope digital loupe

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