Unusual Waterman Fine Silver Overlay Eyedropper: 416V

[oyang]

Hello Phaus,

 

OK; points taken! I didn't take exception; I was just a little too enthusiastic in my verbal sparring, and didn't mean to convey any hostility. The comment about wanting to buy any 416 or 418 you have was tongue-in-cheek, for example. Perhaps I should have used some emoticons..... (ugh).

 

To continue that sparring, the username of the person suggested that he/she is interested in buying pens generally. Because $500 is not a small sum, I'd think that someone making such an offer would:

 

1. have read the descriptions in this thread and understand that this is not a defective pen, but rather an extra-ordinary pen in the literal sense

 

2. have done at least a quick search of going prices for Waterman overlay pens to realize that even the most common #6 sterling overlay (#456) goes for $1000+, and that earlier slip cap overlays are rarer and more expensive, and that fine silver overlays are yet rarer and bring a greater premium

 

All this being said, I agree that you and I are probably more knowledgeable than average, not everyone does their homework, and certainly one could naively make a lowball offer unintentionally.

 

What irked me about this person's offer was that it was couched in the context that the pen was worth less because it was not a standard version, and he/she knew this was a low offer by giving the explanation that this pen was substandard. I previously posted a direct quote from this person, but it was taken down by the moderator.... so you will have to take my word for it that this person's offer included language that showed they knew this was a very low amount, justified by this pen being substandard.

 

At any rate, I will post more pictures later today comparing this pen side by side to standard 416 and 418 fine silver overlays. I like quirky pens and so this is one of my favorite in my collection. I wish I knew the story behind it. When I consulted Mike Fultz (for those who don't know, one of the true founders of pen collecting and an avid historian who also collected documents and patent information related to early pen companies) years ago, his guess was that this was a custom order specified by a customer, based on his knowledge of Waterman doing such work on occasion. He said that they would for example make a pen with a different size nib than standard if requested.

[oyang]

A few remarks.

 

In my country there is a saying that translates to: It is worth what a fool will pay for it.

 

In pendom, the value of a pen can sometimes be pinpointed when there are many sales, and prices do not vary much.

But on items that are seldom sold, a "value" is more difficult to determine.

And I don't have to tell folks here, that price is also dependant on the condition of the item, but also on the place where it is sold. A pen might do much more in Europe than in USA.

 

An offer is a start to a negotiation. No one offers his final price in the opening bid. A low opening bid is not trolling, it is a low opening bid.

 

In a one off item, the seller is going to emphasise that the item is rare, therefore more valuable. The buyer is going to point out it is weird, perhaps a mistake and worth less. That is a normal process, and not trolling.

 

For each person, be it buyer or seller its is good to determine the value it has FOR YOU and not to let yourself be intimidated by the other party. If you see you are not going to reach a price within your comfort zone, stop negotiating.

 

If you get unsolicited offers on FPN you are not happy with, you do not have to react. You can just delete the conversation, or give a polite decline.

If the person keeps bothering you: report the conversation, as that is considered spamming.

 

 

D.ick

Your post came just as I was finishing a reply to Phaus.... It addresses some of your points. I explain why I think this person WAS trolling. I did decline the offer and close the conversation with the other person without engaging in any row. I posted more on this thread without naming the person because I think it is more generally an interesting point to discuss about pen pricing, pen collecting, how collectors deal with trades, and how these relate to this specific pen.

 

I've been expressing my opinion, and I don't think I've been impolite as you seem to be implying. While I appreciate the reason for your lecture about dealing with offers about pens, it's unnecessary and besides the points I am making. I've been collecting long enough to know how things work, and to know when something is fishy, which is why I raised the point about this particular offer. If you read carefully through what I've written, I'm not ranting or slandering; I'm going through reasoned thoughts. In my country, this is called freedom of speech..... although given recent presidential election politics, that term does seem to have lost its meaning and I may need to consider moving to your country.

[RMN]

Your post came just as I was finishing a reply to Phaus.... It addresses some of your points. I explain why I think this person WAS trolling. I did decline the offer and close the conversation with the other person without engaging in any row. I posted more on this thread without naming the person because I think it is more generally an interesting point to discuss about pen pricing, pen collecting, how collectors deal with trades, and how these relate to this specific pen.

 

I've been expressing my opinion, and I don't think I've been impolite as you seem to be implying. While I appreciate the reason for your lecture about dealing with offers about pens, it's unnecessary and besides the points I am making. I've been collecting long enough to know how things work, and to know when something is fishy, which is why I raised the point about this particular offer. If you read carefully through what I've written, I'm not ranting or slandering; I'm going through reasoned thoughts. In my country, this is called freedom of speech..... although given recent presidential election politics, that term does seem to have lost its meaning and I may need to consider moving to your country.

 

My post was aimed at the general membership. Often a post like yours is a nice coat rack to renew some general information.

 

If I would have aimed it at you personally, I would have done that by PM, not here in public. (although I did address some minor points you made to explain)

 

 

 

D.ick

[oyang]

 

My post was aimed at the general membership. Often a post like yours is a nice coat rack to renew some general information.

 

If I would have aimed it at you personally, I would have done that by PM, not here in public. (although I did address some minor points you made to explain)

 

 

 

D.ick

OK, all good! The fun stuff, i.e. more pictures, to follow later today!

[phaus]

Hello Phaus,

 

OK; points taken! I didn't take exception; I was just a little too enthusiastic in my verbal sparring, and didn't mean to convey any hostility. The comment about wanting to buy any 416 or 418 you have was tongue-in-cheek, for example. Perhaps I should have used some emoticons..... (ugh).

 

To continue that sparring, the username of the person suggested that he/she is interested in buying pens generally. Because $500 is not a small sum, I'd think that someone making such an offer would:

 

1. have read the descriptions in this thread and understand that this is not a defective pen, but rather an extra-ordinary pen in the literal sense

 

2. have done at least a quick search of going prices for Waterman overlay pens to realize that even the most common #6 sterling overlay (#456) goes for $1000+, and that earlier slip cap overlays are rarer and more expensive, and that fine silver overlays are yet rarer and bring a greater premium

 

All this being said, I agree that you and I are probably more knowledgeable than average, not everyone does their homework, and certainly one could naively make a lowball offer unintentionally.

 

What irked me about this person's offer was that it was couched in the context that the pen was worth less because it was not a standard version, and he/she knew this was a low offer by giving the explanation that this pen was substandard. I previously posted a direct quote from this person, but it was taken down by the moderator.... so you will have to take my word for it that this person's offer included language that showed they knew this was a very low amount, justified by this pen being substandard.

 

At any rate, I will post more pictures later today comparing this pen side by side to standard 416 and 418 fine silver overlays. I like quirky pens and so this is one of my favorite in my collection. I wish I knew the story behind it. When I consulted Mike Fultz (for those who don't know, one of the true founders of pen collecting and an avid historian who also collected documents and patent information related to early pen companies) years ago, his guess was that this was a custom order specified by a customer, based on his knowledge of Waterman doing such work on occasion. He said that they would for example make a pen with a different size nib than standard if requested.

Given the additional information, it seems like you were probably right about this individual. Perhaps I'm too sensitive because some of the people I have encountered seem quick to judge. I generally make offers that are slightly low (but still well within the realm of what is fair) due to the fact that 9 out of 10 people will automatically counter-offer with a higher price no matter how fair the initial offer is. I honestly don't like negotiating, so I'd actually prefer it if I could just make my best offer the first time, but from my experience it doesn't work. Most people make a counter-offer or pass if they think its too low, but I've had a couple of individuals get hostile when they honestly just expected too much for what they are selling. For example, I was recently making an offer on an unrestored Waterman 52 based on a couple of fuzzy pictures, it was a pretty ordinary user-grade BHR version, and the seller (who solicited offers) was basically offended that my initial offer wasn't $200 just because he sees full-time vintage pen experts charge that much for a fully-restored pen in far better condition..

 

Anyways, you have a great pen there. I've learned quite a bit from this threat. I've been keeping an eye out for an opportunity to obtain my first Waterman overlay, but I'll probably stick to something far more common and affordable.

Edited March 10, 2016 by phaus