Questions About Esterbrook Stub Nibs

[johntdavis]

Hello!

 

I'm getting a couple of pens restored right now, as I've mentioned in a couple of other threads, and I'll probably end up having to replace the nib on both of them. I've got a modern Conklin Crescent with a 1.1 mm stub, and really like the character of the stub nib.

 

The 1.1mm line width is a bit too much for the way I write, though, both because my handwriting is small and I'm a lefty and need to avoid super-slow dry writing. While it's fun for special occasions and slow writing, for day to day quick note-taking it's a bit, ah, extreme.

 

I'd like to try a smaller line stub. I'm specifically looking at the 9314-F Relief Fine Stub and the 9314-M Relief Medium Stub. I'm interested in these two because, I as understand it, unlike the 2000 series stubs, these actually have hard tipping material, being part of the "Master Point" collection. This seems preferable, as I tend to hold my pens a bit oddly sometimes since I'm left-handed, and want to have a point that will stand up to a little awkwardness.

 

 

So, some questions:

1. What's the difference in durability/behavior between the 9314 and the 2314? What advantages does the 9314 have (I notice it is substantially more expensive where I see it listed for sale). The 2000 series rolled steel just doesn't sound that durable to me--though I don't know, given how many people I hear raving about their 2668s.*
2. How does the line width on the M and F stub nibs compare to modern pens? If you could give me a pen/nib combination to compare them to, that'd be great--even if I don't own the pen I can probably look at a sample in the Goulets' Nib Nook, which does have pens I own to compare to.
3. What, exactly, is Relief nib? At first I thought it was just one made in England during WWII, but then I saw some data indicating they only fit a Relief pen from the same era. I don't have one of those, unfortunately. Could I take a 9314 and put it on a 1930s dollar pen?
4. Is there any reason a left-handed person would want to avoid either of these nibs?
5. [EDIT: ADDED QUESTION.] Reading around the forum, just now saw mention that all Estie stubs are oblique. Is that true? I have literally no experience with these kinds of nibs, as I'm left handed and have enough trouble holding my pens just right so I don't end up smearing the page, etc. How much harder is it to learn to use one of these? If I can't get a square stub, I know I won't be going stub on the desk pen I'm getting refurbished. It's going to be my friend's first fountain pen, and I don't want to complicate things by starting him on an oblique.

*I've actually got a 2668, but I've never been able to use it because the pen is inoperative and the nib is misaligned. Getting that fixed now ...

 

Thanks!

Edited September 13, 2012 by johntdavis

[DanDeM]

Can't help with all of your questions, but...

 

What's the difference in durability/behavior between the 9314 and the 2314?

 

 

With average amount of writing on average paper a 9XXX series nib will last a lifetime.

With average amount of writing on average paper a 2XXX series nib might only last 20 or 30 years.

 

What, exactly, is Relief nib? At first I thought it was just one made in England during WWII, but then I saw some data indicating they only fit a Relief pen from the same era. I don't have one of those, unfortunately. Could I take a 9314 and put it on a 1930s dollar pen?

 

 

Don't confuse a Relief pen with a Relief nib. The pens were made by Conway Stewart and have gold, non-interchangeable nibs.

Relief nibs are the interchangeable nibs that screw into every Esterbrook that rolled off the line...from a 1932 VClip on down.

[johntdavis]

Can't help with all of your questions, but...

 

What's the difference in durability/behavior between the 9314 and the 2314?

 

 

With average amount of writing on average paper a 9XXX series nib will last a lifetime.

With average amount of writing on average paper a 2XXX series nib might only last 20 or 30 years.

 

20 or 30 years is still pretty impressive. Though now I'm stuck wondering what the NOS Estie nib supply will be in 2042. I may be overthinking this.

 

So, do you consider the 9000 series worth the extra money at this point or not? Or is it more "get the most nib you can afford?"

 

What, exactly, is Relief nib? At first I thought it was just one made in England during WWII, but then I saw some data indicating they only fit a Relief pen from the same era. I don't have one of those, unfortunately. Could I take a 9314 and put it on a 1930s dollar pen?

 

 

Don't confuse a Relief pen with a Relief nib. The pens were made by Conway Stewart and have gold, non-interchangeable nibs.

Relief nibs are the interchangeable nibs that screw into every Esterbrook that rolled off the line...from a 1932 VClip on down.

 

That clears it up nicely, thanks.

 

It worries me that you say "screw in." I was told several months ago that the nib on my dollar pen was a friction fit. I tried pulling it off and got it to move, but not come off. It never twisted off, either, for the record. I stopped messing with it at this point for fear of breaking it. Hopefully I didn't destroy the threads--though I think I would've heard the cracking of plastic if I had.

 

Of course, I also don't have a V-clip. I don't think. I should've taken a picture of the pen before I sent it for refurbishment.

[DanDeM]

20 or 30 years is still pretty impressive. Though now I'm stuck wondering what the NOS Estie nib supply will be in 2042. I may be overthinking this.

 

So, do you consider the 9000 series worth the extra money at this point or not? Or is it more "get the most nib you can afford?"

 

Over time, un-tipped nibs like 2XXX and even more for 1XXX series, will wear, and change their characteristics. So a #2048 that

started out as a Flexible Fine will become a Flexible Not-So-Fine. The 9XXX nibs have the advantage of tipping that retains its

initial line, but also provides smoother delivery.

Is the cost differential worth it?

Is this the only pen you will be using over the next few decades?

 

 

It worries me that you say "screw in." I was told several months ago that the nib on my dollar pen was a friction fit.

 

 

All Esterbrook nibs screw out. That's one of the remarkable features about these pens.

 

BTW, sandyrock (really good Este vendor) in the Bog is currently offering a #2442

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/...ME:B:SS:US:1123

 

...which is a Stub for Backhand Writing (that's Estespeak for Leftys)

Edited September 13, 2012 by Blotto

[johntdavis]

20 or 30 years is still pretty impressive. Though now I'm stuck wondering what the NOS Estie nib supply will be in 2042. I may be overthinking this.

 

So, do you consider the 9000 series worth the extra money at this point or not? Or is it more "get the most nib you can afford?"

 

Over time, un-tipped nibs like 2XXX and even more for 1XXX series, will wear, and change their characteristics. So a #2048 that

started out as a Flexible Fine will become a Flexible Not-So-Fine. The 9XXX nibs have the advantage of tipping that retains its

initial line, but also provides smoother delivery.

Is the cost differential worth it?

Is this the only pen you will be using over the next few decades?

 

Nice explanation, thanks. After thinking on it, I realize I probably would spend the extra money on consistency if I had the option. One of the pens I am trying to get fixed I picked up literally for free out of a box of junk someone brought into my house and told me to grab some stuff out of, so putting down more money on a nib that will keep its writing profile over time is not out of the question.

 

Plus, it's an antique. I realize natural use causes wear, but getting something that will retain its original characteristics as you use it is appealing. Especially since I imagine the supply of Estie nibs (espcially NOS nibs) won't always be what it is today.

 

The other is going to be used by someone who I expect to be a bit rough on their pen--they write heavy handed. Again, I think the tipping would be a benefit. It'll also be the first FP he owns, and he won't be getting a new one anytime soon, so I want it to hold up, so I want to make sure it holds up.

 

It worries me that you say "screw in." I was told several months ago that the nib on my dollar pen was a friction fit.

 

 

All Esterbrook nibs screw out. That's one of the remarkable features about these pens.

 

... Uh oh. Going to have to ask Mr Anderson to make sure I didn't wreck the threads on that one, then. It did come out some, which now worries me greatly.

 

Speaking of, how easy is it to change nibs yourself? I know with some pens (like my Crescent), you've got to make sure the nib and feed stay aligned with each other and the internal filling mechanism. It looks from my reading like the Estie nib units are built so the nib and feed should not become misaligned from simply taking it on and off. I have very shaky hands when I do this kind of work, so that's a major plus.

 

BTW, someone in the Bog is currently offering a #2442

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/...ME:B:SS:US:1123

 

...which is a Stub for Backhand Writing (that's Estespeak for Leftys)

 

So that's what Backhanded Writing is meant for. I saw a writing sample while Googling yesterday, and all the letters were angled back (to the left), and I didn't really see the point.

 

I had no idea it was meant for lefties. I'm left-handed, and I certainly don't write that way. I'm guessing the advantage for LH with the backhand strokes is you're pulling the nib across the page--like a RH person would--instead of pushing. Though honestly having to push has never bothered me, even if it's probably made my nibs a bit toothier in the hand.

 

Going to go drool over that 2442, now. Unless ... is it also oblique? Not sure I could write with one of those.

 

Thought: if normal wear on a 2000 series regular nib makes a fine into a fine-medium over time, what does wear do to a 2000 stub nib? Its writing surface is flat. I guess the line could get broader?

 

EDIT: Just looked at all the other auctions they're running. So. Many. NIbs. All the ones I've been looking at, actually. Thanks again for the link.

Edited September 13, 2012 by johntdavis

[pajaro]

I am left-handed, write backhanded, and I tried one of the 2442 nibs, NOS. I thought it was machts nichts. It seemed to like any other nib. Nothing wrong with it, nothing counterproductive, just nothing special. If I were going to buy an Estie nib, I would spend the dollars on some 9XXX nib you would like to have.

[DanDeM]

... Uh oh. Going to have to ask Mr Anderson to make sure I didn't wreck the threads on that one, then. It did come out some, which now worries me greatly.

 

Speaking of, how easy is it to change nibs yourself? I know with some pens (like my Crescent), you've got to make sure the nib and feed stay aligned with each other and the internal filling mechanism. It looks from my reading like the Estie nib units are built so the nib and feed should not become misaligned from simply taking it on and off. I have very shaky hands when I do this kind of work, so that's a major plus.

 

If the pen is with Brian Anderson now, it will be working fine when you get it back.

Although Esterbrook nib/feed assemblies are securely cased in a threaded collar, they can become mis-aligned.

Not with the filling mechanism but with each other. That is, the nib vent hole can become mis-aligned with

the feed channel. Nothing major, just twist it back in place...but don't pull out.

 

An aside. A light wipe of Silicone Grease on the collar threads will make it easier to screw it in and out, and

also deter ink from creeping onto the nib, section or into the cap.

 

 

Thought: if normal wear on a 2000 series regular nib makes a fine into a fine-medium over time, what does wear do to a 2000 stub nib? Its writing surface is flat. I guess the line could get broader?

 

 

The outer edges will get softer, more rounded. The line will loose its crispness and become more like a Cursive Italic...unless

you're writing on brown paper grocery bags. Then it will just be Broad.

 

Hope this helps

[johntdavis]

Thought: if normal wear on a 2000 series regular nib makes a fine into a fine-medium over time, what does wear do to a 2000 stub nib? Its writing surface is flat. I guess the line could get broader?

 

 

The outer edges will get softer, more rounded. The line will loose its crispness and become more like a Cursive Italic...unless

you're writing on brown paper grocery bags. Then it will just be Broad.

 

Hope this helps

 

It helps indeed, thank you.

 

I'm thinking I'll try to snag a NOS 9000 stub, if I don't just chicken out and get a 9000 series F or M. I have no experience with writing with an oblique. Is that going to be a problem with the stub?

[DanDeM]

 

I have no experience with writing with an oblique. Is that going to be a problem with the stub?

 

 

Can't help with that. Writing experience is too personal, subjective. You'll just have to try them to find out.

 

But I get the impression that for you "oblique" and "stub" are synonyms. They're not.

Scratch through Richard Binder's Glossary of Terms. My para-phrase will only wilt his lily.

[johntdavis]

I have no experience with writing with an oblique. Is that going to be a problem with the stub?

 

 

Can't help with that. Writing experience is too personal, subjective. You'll just have to try them to find out.

 

But I get the impression that for you "oblique" and "stub" are synonyms. They're not.

Scratch through Richard Binder's Glossary of Terms. My para-phrase will only wilt his lily.

 

I don't know what it means to wilt someone's lily, but it sounds just terrible.

 

I know there's a difference between an oblique and a stub, even if I'm getting to the point in the day where my English language skills have begun to fail. I've got experience with a 1.1mm stub, and I like the line variation a lot, but the line width is too big for daily writing--at least with my tiny writing. Plus, the dry-time on a line that thick is not so great for a lefty. I've yet to completely avoid smearing with it.

 

That said, I have no experience with obliques, and am not sure I'd be able to use one well. I understand it should be as simple as just holding the nib at an angle--which I already tend to do if I'm not careful, since I'm a recovering claw-handed lefty--but I'm afraid of spending considerable money on a pen I can't use well. If I'm left-handed do I need a left-angled oblique? Most sellers that say the nib is oblique do not indicate which direction it's going.

 

I've seen indications that the 2000 and 9000 stubs are oblique stubs from some sources. Of course, some sellers just call them stubs, so now I'm confused. Like you said, those terms are not interchangeable.

[PaFitch]

The Osmiroid screw points that fit Esterbrooks can be found in a variety of configurations (obliques and stubs)and sizes that provide nice variation with cursive writing. They are not tipped but my limited experience has found them to be smooth writers. Their cost generally isn't exorbitant either. My experience with 2442 renew points is that they show relatively little variation but they come at a much higher price.

 

 

A free Esterbrook out of a junk box is a good find indeed. Congratulations

[esteroids]

You could try an Osmiroid italic. They screw right in. If you're looking for something narrower try the italic fine. I normally use an italic medium, about 1.0 mm. But because they are thinner and sharper they put down less ink than other 1.1s, they have more contrast, but have a smaller sweet spot - they are not very forgiving.

[JonSzanto]

I'm a left-hander, and I have about a dozen Esties with a bunch of nibs. I'll just say this:

 

While I might use a common 2668/9668 for some basic writing, I always prefer the 'stubs'. To be honest, I don't care whether they are the 2 or 9 series, because I'm *never* going to wear it out, just won't write that much in my lifetime. Each nib - even the NOS I've gotten - are always just a little different. As a leftie (I'm an underwriter, if that matters), I've had good luck (assuming the nib is in good shape) with the 2314-M and -F nibs, and the 9314 counterparts.

 

My current faves are a 9314 "Relief" (frosted) nib that is like the -F series, a 2314-M that turns any piece of paper into like writing on glass (I don't really know why, but I mean that as a good thing), and a 9314-M that has just a bit more crispness. My top nib may change, because I just got an Estie from a fave seller yesterday with a 2442 stub in it, and it rocks - puts down a line that is almost right between the width of the standard -M and -F series.

 

Bottom line? Pick a nib or two, and try them out. Nothing that ANYONE can put in writing can adequately give you a realistic idea of how it will work for YOU. I only started picking these up about a year ago, and now, frankly, I"m done. I've tried a whole bunch of nibs (which, as said, is incredibly easy to do with an Estie, just screw them in and out), and it has been fun tailoring the pens to my writing habits and desires.

 

In fact, I'll probably offer some of these up in a month or so. I don't like to hoard, and I don't need all these nibs and pens.

 

Enjoy the ride. As far as fps go, this is about as cheap, easy, and fun a way to experiment as can be had.

[DanDeM]

 

I don't know what it means to wilt someone's lily, but it sounds just terrible.

 

 

 

Reworking something that has already been done well is often called. "Gilding a Lily".

My para-phrase of Richard Binder's Glossary would only wilt it.

[OcalaFlGuy]

I've written with most all of the factory obliques and stubs though not the factory italic. Frankly, I wasn't that impressed with any of them but I also have Very High Standards for my "edged" nibs.

 

IMO, the quickest, best, though not the cheapest way to handle it is to have your own NOS nib ground. MAKE the nib you want. Pendemonium will still grind a nib for $25.

 

Then you can end up with what YOU really want not what the factory thought 60 years ago you may want (now).

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[JonSzanto]

IMO, the quickest, best, though not the cheapest way to handle it is to have your own NOS nib ground. MAKE the nib you want. Pendemonium will still grind a nib for $25. Then you can end up with what YOU really want not what the factory thought 60 years ago you may want (now).

Just a thought: without having tried any of the available factory stub/relief nibs, how would you propose a person like the OP describe what it is they are looking for in the nib grind? How would he know what he wants?

 

I agree with you to an extent: a custom grind is certainly more exacting than the standard nibs. I wouldn't trade my PB grinds, and the best of the lot is a custom CI I got on a Waterman from Susan Wirth. Nonetheless, a decent 2314/9314 certainly gives a difference in script from a standard 9668 or 1550 type nib. And while it may be a situation of comfort and writing smoothness, your scanned example doesn't show much variation between the thick and thin strokes - maybe that *is* how you wanted it!

 

I guess all I'm saying is that, as a newbie (like I was last year), it would be pretty hard to know what kind of custom grind to get before having had any experience writing with a variety of nibs.

 

I'm hoping to donate a pen later on to the Estie exchange, and I'll try to make it one of the relief/stubs.

Edited September 14, 2012 by JonSzanto

[johntdavis]

IMO, the quickest, best, though not the cheapest way to handle it is to have your own NOS nib ground. MAKE the nib you want. Pendemonium will still grind a nib for $25. Then you can end up with what YOU really want not what the factory thought 60 years ago you may want (now).

Just a thought: without having tried any of the available factory stub/relief nibs, how would you propose a person like the OP describe what it is they are looking for in the nib grind? How would he know what he wants?

 

I agree with you to an extent: a custom grind is certainly more exacting than the standard nibs. I wouldn't trade my PB grinds, and the best of the lot is a custom CI I got on a Waterman from Susan Wirth. Nonetheless, a decent 2314/9314 certainly gives a difference in script from a standard 9668 or 1550 type nib. And while it may be a situation of comfort and writing smoothness, your scanned example doesn't show much variation between the thick and thin strokes - maybe that *is* how you wanted it!

 

I guess all I'm saying is that, as a newbie (like I was last year), it would be pretty hard to know what kind of custom grind to get before having had any experience writing with a variety of nibs.

 

I'm hoping to donate a pen later on to the Estie exchange, and I'll try to make it one of the relief/stubs.

 

Yes. I appreciate the advice re: getting the nib custom ground, but at this point I don't really feel like I have nearly enough experience to even begin guessing what I might want. My current plan is this:

 

Since I can easily interchange the nibs, I'm going to start with a 9550 (Fine)--which I know I'll be able to use well--and either the 9314F or 9314M stub to experiment with. I read the descriptions of italic and stub on Richardspens (such a wonderful resource), and I'm not entirely sure what the difference between an italic and a stub Esterbrook nib would be in practice. Richardspens says the stub can be smoother, but the italic provides more line variation. I realize I'm probably over-simplifying, but is that about right?

 

Between a stub and italic, then, which would you say is better for a person just learning to write with a straight-cut nib for daily/general use? I like the sound of smoothness, which is why I'm currently planning on a stub. Again, my writing tends to be small enough that I rarely go larger than a Euro F--though I'm about to try a Euro M again to see what I can do with it.

[JonSzanto]

John, get yourself over to John Mottishaw's nib (grinding) page. The pictures, combined with the descriptions, should very much clarify the differences (in broad terms) of nib style. I think it is clear that you should start with a stub, as they are more forgiving than a true italic style. Also, most of the Estie nibs you are referencing tend to be more stub-like than sharply italic. But that page should give you a much better idea.

 

Also, look at his menu in the left of any of the main pages, and you should find a page dedicated to left-handed writers, and information for them.

 

P.S. Since you tend to like smaller writing, I think the 2314-F (or 9*** counterpart) would be a good place to start. Remember: when you are making the width of the nib smaller (F vs. M), it reduces the difference between the wide and narrow strokes. Nonetheless, even with the F stubs you can still add personality to your writing with a little bit of line variation.

Edited September 14, 2012 by JonSzanto

[DanDeM]

I posted this pic in another thread, but it's more appropriate here. An Esterbrook fitted with an Osmiroid Medium Stub.

The smoothness of the nib is remarkable. They're very inexpensive and easy to find, which makes experimentation

practical. Really accelerates the learning curve.

 

[JonSzanto]

I posted this pic in another thread, but it's more appropriate here. An Esterbrook fitted with an Osmiroid Medium Stub.

The smoothness of the nib is remarkable. They're very inexpensive and easy to find, which makes experimentation

practical. Really accelerates the learning curve.

One huge caveat:

 

I've used these for years, before I got into fountain pens per se, for music copying. There is no tipping on these nibs, and the caveat is that they are pretty unforgiving for left-handed users. RH have it easy, because you are pulling the pen to the right, so the underside of the nib glides on top of the page; for LH, you are essentially pushing the tip, which tends to cause it to dig in.

 

Not a deal breaker, and you're right, they can be found for not too much money, but in my experience they aren't nearly as user-friendly to a LH as the tipped (or rolled) Estie stub variants.

 

Of course, YMMV.