Ebay And Knock-Offs

[jd50ae]

In the past six months or so I have had three items pulled by ebay:

 

1. Ivory handled dip pen - I was sent a message effectively saying I needed independent verification that it pre-dates some particular point in time.

 

2. A Blue "Snakeskin" pattern fountain pen - a message to the effect that I could not use that description as it implied it might be made from endangered species.

 

3. A bone china tea pot - with a message saying items made from bone, ivory, and other such materials were not permitted.

 

 

 

 

With No 1 I can understand some fanatic with more time than they know what to do with having reported this to ebay. I cannot imagine any one would have mistaken 2 or 3 for anything other than what they were.

 

Therefore I must assume that ebay do have the means of policing listings, they just do it in an ad hoc and unintelligent way.

 

 

 

My wife went through something very similar.

She put one of her feather pens up for auction and it was called something that had to do with a bear.

No bear parts mind you, just a name. (She names all of her pens)

After a number of very irate e-mails and phone calls eBay finally looked at the listing and restored it.

[brewerjeff]

I can imagine this conversation between 2 ebay employees. First guy holding hand over the receiver, "Hey Bob! Its another one of those fountain pen nuts. He's on some tirade about fake pens." "Fake pen? Fer Chrisake Phil, its just a pen. Tell him to go clap the erasers or something, or just get a life."

 

not everyone has the same respect for FPs..

[kps]

not everyone has the same respect for FPs..

It's hard to justify being rough on eBay when FPN discourages discussion of fakes.

[cant_stop_drawing]

This guy sells things rather cheaply and has great feedback.... what are your thoughts? genuine/fake??

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221021578440?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[torstar]

Final selling price looks reasonable on this page, not seeing rather cheaply sold items there...

 

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=italianpens&&_trksid=p2047675.l2560&rt=nc&iid=221021578440&sspagename=VIP:feedback&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller

[terminal]

I buy from this seller almost monthly. Not fakes. He just has a line on (mainly Italian) pens that didn't sell so well.

[Bill Wood]

Hmm. I'm glad I found this post. I myself noticed a couple of auctions which, I'd bet my pay cheque, were either fraudulent or fake. And so I wondered whether we could start a pinned post on FPN naming and shaming sellers of fakes. But that seemed complicated and likely to get either FPN or the poster sued for libel.

 

Then it hit me. Why not create a post naming all the sellers we've had a GOOD experience with. It would help the seller and it would help other FPN members, next time they're on ebay. With time, this list would grow into a sizeable database of sellers with good reputations.

 

Thoughts anyone?

I'd consider that to be a good idea and within the spirit of FPN.

 

Warm regards, Wim

 

Thanks Wim. I've been burnt a few times with very, very bad Sonnet nibs. Too good to be true. I only check ebay UK or Germany or France. Waterman in France is good. It's not only in pens everybody - it's golf clubs to tee shirts. Sometimes it's easy to catch, other times not so. I stick with the FPN sellers and have never been disappointed. If it's a new pen I'll cater to Canadian and American etailers who support FPN.

[rochester21]

I had a different experience. Just the other day, i tried finding a nice, cheap montblanc replica, but no luck. These guys are greedy :roflmho:

 

When the chinese are capable are making pretty good replicas that are actually hard to spot by a novice(like me), it`s difficult for ebay to accuse them of anything, especially if the seller gets positive ratings from the customers.

The american/european authorities have almost no power over chinese-made fakes.

Edited February 14, 2013 by rochester21

[raging.dragon]

I had a different experience. Just the other day, i tried finding a nice, cheap montblanc replica, but no luck. These guys are greedy :roflmho:

 

When the chinese are capable are making pretty good replicas that are actually hard to spot by a novice(like me), it`s difficult for ebay to accuse them of anything, especially if the seller gets positive ratings from the customers.

The american/european authorities have almost no power over chinese-made fakes.

 

If they're making good fakes, their product is probably good enough that they could instead sell the pens under their own brand.

[airborne18th]

I don't completely understand why eBay allows so many pen knockoffs to be sold through them. Montblanc seems to be epicenter of the fakes.

 

Does anyone have any idea why it continues? I wonder if it's just too hard to police or something.

 

It is actually very easy to police, but it requires the brands to pursue it, and they don't. In the US they can have their trademarked merchandise protected, and Ebay will even enforce it and so will US Customs.

 

but the larger issue is that most of the brands do not control their distribution very well. Most of the brands have US distributors, who I suspect would not want imports coming into the US, since it cuts into their business. Also the US authorized dealers get hurt by imports.

 

The brands fail customers, distributors, and authorized dealers in several ways. and not getting tough about fakes is just another facet of their failure. Warranty service is another.

[Laura N]

Many brands do sue the sellers and manufacturers of counterfeit merchandise. The problems are (i) enforcing the judgment and (ii) having to play whack-a-mole when the counterfeiters/sellers just re-form their entity.

 

In no way is this easy to police. The counterfeits generally come out of China, which cooperates very little (this is me being very gentle).

 

As we've seen in other sub-forums, eBay is the tip of the iceberg. While eBay can legitimately claim it's just a marketplace, there is at one well-known retailer that is being sued for knowingly selling counterfeits. Counterfeiting goes far beyond pens. Pens are small potatoes.

 

As for the products being good enough to be sold under their own name, I'll just say that one reason the real brands get upset about counterfeiting is because the products are cheaply made and tend to fail at a high rate, so the legitimate product's reputation is damaged. With counterfeits, all the effort is put into faking the look; the materials and workmanship are lesser and no one cares how they work or for how long.

[raging.dragon]

I don't completely understand why eBay allows so many pen knockoffs to be sold through them. Montblanc seems to be epicenter of the fakes.

 

Does anyone have any idea why it continues? I wonder if it's just too hard to police or something.

 

It is actually very easy to police, but it requires the brands to pursue it, and they don't. In the US they can have their trademarked merchandise protected, and Ebay will even enforce it and so will US Customs.

 

but the larger issue is that most of the brands do not control their distribution very well. Most of the brands have US distributors, who I suspect would not want imports coming into the US, since it cuts into their business. Also the US authorized dealers get hurt by imports.

 

The brands fail customers, distributors, and authorized dealers in several ways. and not getting tough about fakes is just another facet of their failure. Warranty service is another.

 

US Customs, and their counterparts in other countries, try to block importation of counterfeit goods but there are alot factors making this mostly ineffective. First only an idiot would describe the goods shipped as "counterfeit montblanc pen", second the average customs agent isn't a pen collector and wouldn't know whether the shipment described as "fountain pen" is a fake MB, a real MB, or a vintage Sheaffer. So short of prohibiting all shipments from foreigners (both individuals and businesses) to private individuals customs enforcement only catches the odd bulk shipments (like when counterfeit goods are shipped by the 40' container for distribution to flea markets and street vendors). And finally, by the time a brand recognizes the counterfeit dealer, collects a bit of evidence, and informs the authorities that dealer will have already changed names and addresses several times. So simply inspecting shipments from known purveyors of counterfeit goods doesn't help much either.

[airborne18th]

I don't completely understand why eBay allows so many pen knockoffs to be sold through them. Montblanc seems to be epicenter of the fakes.

 

Does anyone have any idea why it continues? I wonder if it's just too hard to police or something.

 

It is actually very easy to police, but it requires the brands to pursue it, and they don't. In the US they can have their trademarked merchandise protected, and Ebay will even enforce it and so will US Customs.

 

but the larger issue is that most of the brands do not control their distribution very well. Most of the brands have US distributors, who I suspect would not want imports coming into the US, since it cuts into their business. Also the US authorized dealers get hurt by imports.

 

The brands fail customers, distributors, and authorized dealers in several ways. and not getting tough about fakes is just another facet of their failure. Warranty service is another.

 

US Customs, and their counterparts in other countries, try to block importation of counterfeit goods but there are alot factors making this mostly ineffective. First only an idiot would describe the goods shipped as "counterfeit montblanc pen", second the average customs agent isn't a pen collector and wouldn't know whether the shipment described as "fountain pen" is a fake MB, a real MB, or a vintage Sheaffer. So short of prohibiting all shipments from foreigners (both individuals and businesses) to private individuals customs enforcement only catches the odd bulk shipments (like when counterfeit goods are shipped by the 40' container for distribution to flea markets and street vendors). And finally, by the time a brand recognizes the counterfeit dealer, collects a bit of evidence, and informs the authorities that dealer will have already changed names and addresses several times. So simply inspecting shipments from known purveyors of counterfeit goods doesn't help much either.

 

I agree, there are alot of factors, and it is not about catching 2 people shipping a pen or 2 around the world. The real point is stopping commerical shipments. Both business to business and business to individual. But it takes the brand actively pressing enforcement. Customs, ebay, Amazon, and the rest of the parties won't do a thing without the brand asserting their trademark and copyright.

 

And actually customs is very effective at it once a person or company has been flagged in their database. But again, the brand has to actively police it themselves.

 

And no, it won't eliminate. But it will stop ebay from allowing sellers to list them.

 

the point is that once the brand makes it clear that the FBI is going to handout 10,000 USD tickets.. it will stop it at the obvious level.

 

Again all of this starts with the brand and the authorized dealers.

[raging.dragon]

I agree, there are alot of factors, and it is not about catching 2 people shipping a pen or 2 around the world. The real point is stopping commerical shipments. Both business to business and business to individual. But it takes the brand actively pressing enforcement. Customs, ebay, Amazon, and the rest of the parties won't do a thing without the brand asserting their trademark and copyright.

 

And actually customs is very effective at it once a person or company has been flagged in their database. But again, the brand has to actively police it themselves.

 

And no, it won't eliminate. But it will stop ebay from allowing sellers to list them.

 

the point is that once the brand makes it clear that the FBI is going to handout 10,000 USD tickets.. it will stop it at the obvious level.

 

Again all of this starts with the brand and the authorized dealers.

 

When ebay flag a counterfeiter, the counterfeiter creates a new account and is soon back in business. When customs flag a counterfeiter, the counterfeiter changes their business name and shipping address, and is soon back in business. Shutting down the counterfeiters would require the cooperation of local authorities in the countries where the counterfeiters operate, and currently that cooperation doesn't exist.

 

Nor is it possible for ebay, the brands, or the authorities to manually review every posting. Nobody involved can afford to do so. And there is no way for an automated algorithm to tell the difference between seller A selling a fake MB and seller B selling a used MB. Therefore, there is no feasible way to block counterfeit sales without also blocking the resale of legitimate goods. Yet, from either a political or business perspective, such a policy isn't feasible either.

[airborne18th]

I agree, there are alot of factors, and it is not about catching 2 people shipping a pen or 2 around the world. The real point is stopping commerical shipments. Both business to business and business to individual. But it takes the brand actively pressing enforcement. Customs, ebay, Amazon, and the rest of the parties won't do a thing without the brand asserting their trademark and copyright.

 

And actually customs is very effective at it once a person or company has been flagged in their database. But again, the brand has to actively police it themselves.

 

And no, it won't eliminate. But it will stop ebay from allowing sellers to list them.

 

the point is that once the brand makes it clear that the FBI is going to handout 10,000 USD tickets.. it will stop it at the obvious level.

 

Again all of this starts with the brand and the authorized dealers.

 

When ebay flag a counterfeiter, the counterfeiter creates a new account and is soon back in business. When customs flag a counterfeiter, the counterfeiter changes their business name and shipping address, and is soon back in business. Shutting down the counterfeiters would require the cooperation of local authorities in the countries where the counterfeiters operate, and currently that cooperation doesn't exist.

 

Nor is it possible for ebay, the brands, or the authorities to manually review every posting. Nobody involved can afford to do so. And there is no way for an automated algorithm to tell the difference between seller A selling a fake MB and seller B selling a used MB. Therefore, there is no feasible way to block counterfeit sales without also blocking the resale of legitimate goods. Yet, from either a political or business perspective, such a policy isn't feasible either.

 

you are mixing ebay and law enforcement together. maybe canada and the US have different laws regarding this kind of thing. and ebay does not have to do complex anything to eliminate counterfeiters, and if the trademark holder pushes the issue, they can block the entire brand. when it comes to brand asserting their trademark rights, they can force ebay to not allow any of their products to be listed ( alot of them do ). Because when it comes down to it, ebay can be held liable for damages ( Amazon just got hit for a few big ones recently.. one was that hair curling iron wand thing ).

 

Look at microsoft products.. they are sold on ebay, but counterfeits are actually very uncommon, which considering the nature of the products it is actually a very good job.

 

but you do illustrate how effect it can be.. it eventually becomes difficult to be an importer of counterfiet goods ( if the brand pushes it ). So yes, it resembles a criminal organization, and they have to move around ( this goes on in the US with unapproved vitamin supplements from china). It removes the businesses who deal in them out of ignorance, or because it is easy to do. And it also forces them to buy larger amounts, since the risk goes up with smaller and more frequent imports. The key to eliminating it is to take it out of the mainstream.

 

And post-911 the US customs is actually pretty good at it. First they don't track any business or person by their address, it is by tax-id. And the US Treasury does it as well. Remember they are concerned about import taxes, not just counterfiets. They do a better job than you think. A few of the camera brands pushed this issue, and every camera lense I bought overseas of the one brand was opened.

 

Again you can take this.. it is impossible, and I agree. the way fountain pen brands are doing it, it is impossible.

[Penne Stilografiche]

Sorry but how exactly is eBay to know something is a knockoff?

People are supposed to report knockoffs. I've reported many fake pens but ebay never removes them....

Also ebay has been sued by many companies including Tiffany and Co because of this same issue, but lost in the end because ebay just helps people in selling their items rather than selling the fakes themselves. Believe it or not, TAC conducted an experiment to see how many Tiffany items sold on ebay are fakes by purchasing a large amount of their items at random.They found that over 85%of Tiffany items on ebay are fakes.

[terminal]

This is absolutely true. Here's a case summary and the shareholder report from eBay with the percentages of fakes. Here's the summary from the report:

 

Tiffany offers an extensive selection of TIFFANY & CO. brand jewelry at a wide range of prices. In Fiscal 2008, 2007 and 2006, approximately 87%, 85% and 85% of the Registrant’s net sales were attributable to TIFFANY & CO. brand jewelry. Designs are developed by employees, suppliers, independent designers and independent “name” designers (see “Designer Licenses” below). In Fiscal 2008, 2007 and 2006, the remaining 13%, 15% and 15% of the Registrant’s net sales were attributable to TIFFANY & CO. brand non-jewelry merchandise and sales from businesses operated under trademarks or trade names other than TIFFANY & CO.

 

I respond because it really summarizes my reason for asking this question to begin with (although bare in mind this is T&Co's take on things, so take it with a grain of salt).

 

I think it's worth referencing the way takedown notices work with Google (YouTube especially). This is where eBay is hypocritical. On one hand you're supposed to report fakes, but then they take it as a suggestion and make the final call -- usually deciding not to take the auction down. The process is totally opaque and seems to be weighted towards company reports versus individual reports (I bet the problem with Tiffany was that eBay just couldn't keep up, but that's conjecture).

 

Now, the reverse of this, is that people can use takedown notices for their own purposes, for example, on eBay, this might take place against a competing seller. YouTube basically removes the content first, then the owner can appeal.

 

In any case, the fact that eBay does end up making a call, means that, to some extent, they are negligent. They've put themselves in the position to judge fakes without the wherewithal or the manpower. In a sense, they'd be better of simply acting like craigslist.

[Sasha Royale]

Ebay Protection insures the buyer against fraud. However, there is

no protection against buyer mistakes.

 

Pay attention. Read carefully. If you want to rist ten bucks foolishly,

(I have.) take a chance. If the purchase is significant, do your homework.

That includes asking here.

 

"Parker-style pens" are not Parker pens.

Not every country honors international copyrights.

After 60 years, NOBODY owns the arrow clip.

 

Take your brain along, when you shop.

[terminal]

How does the case study you cited mention anything about counterfeit items? The summary you posted simply says a large majority of their sales are from jewelry and the smaller minority is from non jewelry goods and third part business sales.

Sorry I pasted in the wrong quote. I intended to paste this, which is actually a great synopsis of the case (I had both pages up at the same time):

 

Between 2000 and 2005, there were 456,551 completed sales of “Tiffany” jewelry on eBay,120 and between 2000 and 2004, eBay “earned $4.1 million in revenue from completed listings with ‘Tiffany’ in the listing title.”121 In 2004 and 2005, Tiffany decided to conduct its own research to approximate the scope of infringement that existed. Tiffany ran searches on eBay for “Tiffany” items and used a random number generator to purchase 186 pieces of “Tiffany” silver jewelry in 2004 and 139 pieces in 2005.122 Tiffany’s quality management personnel inspected and evaluated each item, and found that 73.1% and 75.5% of the 2004 and 2005 samples, respectively, were counterfeit. In addition, between April 2003 and October 2007, Tiffany’s Customer Service Department received over 3,900 emails from people complaining about counterfeit Tiffany items purchased on eBay.124 eBay also acknowledged receiving numerous buyer complaints about receiving counterfeit Tiffany items purchased on eBay; during a six-week period in 2004, eBay received 125 emails from buyers claiming that they received fake Tiffany jewelry

I'm not sure it really matters that much in terms of the thread, but anyway, there you go...

 

 

How does the case study you cited...

I found the "study" you mentioned...

Didn't actually say "study". Really, if you're going to quote things sarcastically, you should probably have said, "case summary", which are words I actually used.

 

Sorry, but if you search for Tiffany on ebay there are about 20k jewelry results...

Sorry? Like sorry to tell you?

 

134 fake items found by Tiffany EMPLOYEES is hardly a large enough focus group to call it a study.

Right, which is why I carefully said, "although bare in mind this is T&Co's take on things, so take it with a grain of salt". I shouldn't have used "take" twice.

 

 

Ok, so, here we are at the bottom of your response. Point? Are you saying that you think I agree with T&Co and you don't, and so you're trying to poke holes in the T&Co lawsuit? I'm not really arguing the T&Co lawsuit, and I can't speak for everyone else, but I think the point is larger, and the T&Co vs. eBay lawsuit is merely a data point. I would actually say I personally fall on the side of being against takedown requests and I think that it's good eBay won the suit....and I felt I made that side of the argument pretty clear in my post (maybe the problem was that I started out saying the previous post was true).

 

However, I do think eBay puts themselves in a vulnerable position by being the sole, opaque judges of fraud requests.

[terminal]

Ebay Protection insures the buyer against fraud. However, there is

no protection against buyer mistakes.

 

Pay attention. Read carefully. If you want to rist ten bucks foolishly,

(I have.) take a chance. If the purchase is significant, do your homework.

That includes asking here.

 

"Parker-style pens" are not Parker pens.

Not every country honors international copyrights.

After 60 years, NOBODY owns the arrow clip.

 

Take your brain along, when you shop.

 

Be smarter consumers and THEREFORE, knockoffs should be sold on eBay!