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Caran D'ache Léman V. Yiren 615


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#1 brownargus

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 11:08

You may ask why I am spending time comparing two pens so widely apart in price – a top of the range Caran d'Ache Léman v. a pen from a minor Chinese pen company, Yiren, model 615. The reason is that when I acquired the Léman, it suddenly occurred to me that in some ways it was similar to the Yiren – length, weight, girth, appearance – at least they were both black/silver in colour. The main obvious difference is in cost – the Léman's recommended price is around Ł440 some 88x the Ł5 Yiren (including postage from China). The Léman is available at a discount – I paid Ł289 for mine.

Description/appearance

Both pens are black and silver in colour and are of metal construction, probably brass. The images show the basic characteristics of the two pens.

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Léman Ebony:

The barrel and cap have layers of black lacquer giving a deep shiny black finish. All the silver coloured parts are silver plated with a rhodium coating. Caran d'Ache, Swiss Made is engraved on the clutch ring and on the end of the integral clip/end cap is the CdA logo. The barrel incorporates a rubber O-ring where it screws onto the section as additional security against ink leaks.

The nib is of 18 ct gold with silver plating and rhodium coating and is engraved with the CdA logo and the nib width (F in my case).

While the pen undoubtedly is bulky, it has a sleek appearance and the overall effect is of a stylish, well-made, quality pen typical of what one would expect given the price and CdA's reputation as a leading manufacturer of premium quality products.

Yiren 615:

The barrel and cap are both shiny black, most probably with lacquer but the black isn't as deep or intense as on the Léman. The silver coloured bright parts could be silver plated, but at the price this is unlikely – what they are made from is unknown.

The integral clip and ring is held on the cap by a black end cap with an internal Philips screw.

The nib is of stainless steel partly gold plated. The thread on the section that screws into the barrel is plastic.

The barrel has a similar girth to the Léman but the cap is even broader giving the pen a more bulbous, less sleek appearance. However, the most unattractive feature of the pen is the rather ugly design of the clip.

Comparison

Comparing the two side by side, the Léman is the more elegant sleek design which tends to conceal its bulk. The Yiren is, by comparison, much less elegant and heavy-looking.

Dimensions

Léman Yiren

Length closed 138.5 mm 140 mm

Length open, unposted 125 mm 119 mm

Length open, posted 161 mm 162 mm

Barrel width 13.4 mm 13.4 mm

Cap width 13.4 mm 14.7 mm

Weight, total 47 g 51 g

Weight, unposted 30 g 34 g

In use

Both pens are quite a bit heavier than the average. However, this is more apparent in the Yiren due to the grip on the section. On the Léman, this has been carefully sculpted to make it narrower (9.6 mm), when it is similar to other pens and much easier to hold, while the section on the Yiren is 10.9 mm making it somewhat less comfortable to hold. In prolonged use, they are both less comfortable than, for instance, a Parker 51, but the Léman is less tiring on the fingers.

On the two pens both nibs are rated as Fine. However, the Léman has a slightly broader line than most other F rated pens I have – Sheaffer, Cross, Parker, etc. The Yiren, on the other hand, in common with other Chinese pens in my experience, has a much finer line than the average western pen (could this be in any way related to the more intricate Chinese characters?).

The nibs in both pens are smooth writers, giving a good writing line with no missing. However, the Léman is the smoother of the two.

In terms of balance, both pens benefit from being used unposted – add the weight of the cap seriously unbalances the pens. However, this is subject to individual preference.

In summary, the Léman is a much more pleasant pen to use, particularly when writing long essays. If simply filling in a form or a crossword, there is little difference.

Filling – Ink Feed

Both pens feature a cartridge/converter filling system. Both converters appear to be of good quality but the Léman has a distinct advantage in that the converter screws into the section rather than being a push fit. The Yiren accepts the international standard cartridges, while the Léman only accepts the CdA own brand. However, this is not seen as a significant disadvantage particularly where users choose to use the converter or to fill empty cartridges.

The ink feed on both pens is good and produces a consistent line. However, immediately after filling the Léman, there is a slight tendency for a small accumulation of ink at the back of the nib which can spread onto the end of the section and can get onto the fingers. It needs careful wiping after filling.

Manufacture

While both pens are of serviceable quality, on close inspection the Léman, with better quality materials, a high level of finish and detailed engineering points, it is of a much higher standard that to some extent justifies its high price. On the Yiren, the materials, particularly of the bright parts of the Yiren are of an inferior quality and finish, but not dramatically so. The main weak point on the Yiren is the rather flimsy thread on the section to receive the barrel. If this breaks, the pen will be rendered useless.



Value

In assessing this, one must bear in mind that we are comparing two pens in a totally different price bracket, by a factor of 66 times on the basis of the price I paid. Consequently, value considerations are difficult to make. Presumably, the reason for buying a Léman is quite different from that of the purchase of a Yiren, the former being more of an investment giving pride of ownership, and a pen that will give pleasurable use for many years, even more than a lifetime, while the Yiren will be simply a workaday instrument that is dispensable – if it fails, just get another.

The Léman comes in an expensive-looking box with a bottle of Caran d'Ache ink, while the Yiren came in a plastic sleeve.

Overall conclusion

There is no doubt that on every consideration the Léman is the better pen – but so it should be. However, the differences aren't that great when the pens are used for their primary function – writing. Here the Léman is marginally ahead being more comfortable to hold and with a smoother nib. Aesthetically, the Léman is more attractive and has a certain cachet that it conveys to the collector.

I can't comment on how the Léman compares with others in the same price bracket because I have nothing with which to compare it – the nearest are a Parker 51 and a 57-year old Parker Duofold, both of which are, in many ways its equal. The Yiren compares very favourably with other Chinese and European budget priced pens including some that cost more, e.g. the Waterman Phileas.

Given the choice, it should not be surprising that I would have no hesitation in choosing the Léman but if I hadn't the money for a Léman, the Yiren at about Ł5 would be a perfectly acceptable writing instrument for everyday use.
Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

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#2 Laura N

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 21:55

This is an interesting idea for a review. Well done.

I think your Caran D'Ache is a really beautiful pen. Classic and elegant.

#3 terminal

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 23:55

This is a very interesting comparison, thanks!

There is no doubt that on every consideration the Léman is the better pen – but so it should be. However, the differences aren't that great when the pens are used for their primary function – writing. Here the Léman is marginally ahead being more comfortable to hold and with a smoother nib. Aesthetically, the Léman is more attractive and has a certain cachet that it conveys to the collector.


This paragraph gets me. Do they really write just about the same? That's pretty scary, because it really begs the question, is it worth 66x as much to form the same line? Wow.

Do you think the Leman will last longer?
"One always looking for flaws leaves too little time for construction" ...

#4 lovemy51

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 07:23

i do not own a Léman, but i do own a Yiren. WOW! i can't imagine them being so close in their writing...??!!. aesthetically, from the pic of the CdA, i do like the Yiren looks more.

thanx, for a nice review!

#5 brownargus

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Posted 27 April 2012 - 14:08

Thanks for the replies. The reason I decided to do a comparison of two pens at different ends of the price spectrum was that when I obtained my Léman, the Yiren was already inked and when I used them both I found that their writing performance was so similar – in fact if I had been blindfolded, I think I would have had difficulty in telling which I was using.

Since I posted the comparison, I have once again tested both pens on a variety of papers ranging from a standard A4 refill pad from WHSmith to Clairefontaine, and I have to say, in terms of writing performance, as with my previous tests, there is little to pick between them. The Léman is somewhat smoother and more comfortable to hold particularly in extended use, but the line and consistency they both produce are very similar. They both respond slightly differently to different papers, but in this respect their response is similar.

It seems that fountain pens exhibit the same "law of diminishing returns" that many other consumer products follow, so to some extent "you pays your money and takes your choice".

So, what do you get for your CdA money – a very good pen from a prestige manufacturer, offering top quality design, materials and style – though the latter may be somewhat subjective, and a pen that should give a lifetime of service. The other quality which many collectors will appreciate is the cachet that a quality product, which uses special materials, e.g. gold, silver, rhodium, platinum, etc., confers on the owner and user of the pen. Oh, and it also writes well!

At the other end of the scale, the Yiren 615 offers a good workaday pen with a writing performance not all that far short of the Léman and which, if you cannot afford or don't want to afford, an expensive pen, will give satisfaction to many users. It may not last as long nor stand up to the odd accident, but so what, if it fails, get another.

As an aside, I looked on the Internet for Yiren and found a company which supplies pens in bulk here with a minimum order of 3,000 pieces and a production capacity of 80,000 per day at about (at about 50 pence Sterling each)! – the mind boggles!

John

Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#6 brownargus

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 14:42

I have to report that the Caran d'Ache has developed a minor leak at the nib end of the section where the ink feed system mounts into the section. I'm sure that this is only a minor sealing problem but, nevertheless, the pen has had to be returned for repair which is a bit disappointing when CdA's publicity plays great importance on the testing and inspection carried out during the manufacturing process. I was also a bit miffed that having returned the pen to the dealer, who forwarded the pen to CdA, they wanted to see the guarantee form, despite the pen having a lifetime warranty for faults in manufacture. Hope to get a quick turnaround. Meanwhile, back to the trusty Yiren!
John

Edited by brownargus, 08 June 2012 - 14:44.

Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#7 rwilsonedn

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 22:19

Brownargus:
Thank you for both a fascinating comparison and an even more fascinating follow-up. My limited experience with Chinese pens, and much more limited experience with fine European pens, suggests that your conclusions are right on target. The extra money does not buy you that much greater writing pleasure. In fact, the opposite can sometimes be true today. It does by you far better materials, fit, and finish, and for the time being, better aesthetic design. But the latter is just for my taste, and may very well change over time: brilliant design doesn't necessarily add to manufacturing cost.
The real shocker, but unfortunately my experience supports you again, is that the extra money doesn't guarantee better reliability. In fact as the Chinese manufacturers have matured, their volume-production techniques may be making more reliable pens that humans can produce by hand.
ron

#8 Nunnbetta

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 08:51

I have to report that the Caran d'Ache has developed a minor leak at the nib end of the section where the ink feed system mounts into the section. I'm sure that this is only a minor sealing problem but, nevertheless, the pen has had to be returned for repair which is a bit disappointing when CdA's publicity plays great importance on the testing and inspection carried out during the manufacturing process. I was also a bit miffed that having returned the pen to the dealer, who forwarded the pen to CdA, they wanted to see the guarantee form, despite the pen having a lifetime warranty for faults in manufacture. Hope to get a quick turnaround. Meanwhile, back to the trusty Yiren!
John

Thanks Brownargus for a fascinating review. I have been considering the Caran d'Ache Leman Ebony Black gold given its aesthetics and weight. I tend to prefer a heavier pen. I am concerned with the response you got from your dealer. Would be interested to hear how it all turned out. From my neck of the woods reliability is rather important as any returns would require a fair bit of shipping etc. Do use this pen often and what would be the nearest comparison in your hands when considering the heavier pen line up.
Thanks
Chris

#9 brownargus

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 18:30

The dealer is in the hands of CdA who carry out any repair/replacement under warranty - he acted very promptly. It is CdA who required the guarantee form. The pen was despatched by me on 28th May but I suppose with the need for the guarantee form etc. it would be at least 6th June (after the Jubilee bank holiday) before CdA were able to proceed. The dealer did say that in his experience repair times from CdA could be longer than other makes - could this be beause the pens are repaired in Switzerland? The UK agent is Stone Marketing which I believe are also agents for other pens - e.g. Sheaffer and I have had good service from them in the past. However, I'm hoping that the pen will be returned soon but will post when it arrives.
I wouldn't let this dissuade one from a purchase however.
John
PS On a positive note, when I originally enquired about a pen with a Fine nib, which the dealer didn't stock, in common with other dealers, the pen was sent to the dealer from CdA by next day courier!

Edited by brownargus, 20 June 2012 - 19:00.

Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#10 georges zaslavsky

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 06:36

The leman is an outstanding proof of caran d'ache craftsmanship
Pens are like watches , once you start a collection, you can hardly go back. And pens like all fine luxury items do improve with time

#11 brownargus

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 11:59

1340182274[/url]' post='2379885']
Thanks Brownargus for a fascinating review. I have been considering the Caran d'Ache Leman Ebony Black gold given its aesthetics and weight. I tend to prefer a heavier pen. I am concerned with the response you got from your dealer. Would be interested to hear how it all turned out. From my neck of the woods reliability is rather important as any returns would require a fair bit of shipping etc. Do use this pen often and what would be the nearest comparison in your hands when considering the heavier pen line up.
Thanks
Chris

According to the CdA website there is no agent in New Zealand, the nearest being in Brisbane, Australia. But according to the Swiss Society of New Zealand, there is an agent: Jill Larmer, PO Box 12317, Thorndon, Wellington 6144 tel. 027 435 2392/ 04 499 4046, email: jill.larmer@xtra.co.nz.I just Googled Caran d'Ache New Zealand! Presumably any purchase would be made through a local dealer in NZ, in which case any warranty claims would be through the dealer. I was using the pen regularly since I acquired it on March until the leak appeared.
Don't know whether this helps.
John

Edited by brownargus, 21 June 2012 - 12:01.

Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#12 Nunnbetta

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 10:59

1340182274[/url]' post='2379885']
Thanks Brownargus for a fascinating review. I have been considering the Caran d'Ache Leman Ebony Black gold given its aesthetics and weight. I tend to prefer a heavier pen. I am concerned with the response you got from your dealer. Would be interested to hear how it all turned out. From my neck of the woods reliability is rather important as any returns would require a fair bit of shipping etc. Do use this pen often and what would be the nearest comparison in your hands when considering the heavier pen line up.
Thanks
Chris

According to the CdA website there is no agent in New Zealand, the nearest being in Brisbane, Australia. But according to the Swiss Society of New Zealand, there is an agent: Jill Larmer, PO Box 12317, Thorndon, Wellington 6144 tel. 027 435 2392/ 04 499 4046, email: jill.larmer@xtra.co.nz.I just Googled Caran d'Ache New Zealand! Presumably any purchase would be made through a local dealer in NZ, in which case any warranty claims would be through the dealer. I was using the pen regularly since I acquired it on March until the leak appeared.
Don't know whether this helps.
John

Thanks Brownargus
That is very helpful. I will be sure to follow up on the New Zealand contact. I had assumed I would get one either from Australia or one of the cities I am visiting later in the year including Munich, Vancouver, Quebec and Boston. Obviously it would be a huge advantage to have a local contact. Much appreciated.
Chris

#13 brownargus

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 14:29

1340362786[/url]' post='2381926']
Thanks Brownargus
That is very helpful. I will be sure to follow up on the New Zealand contact. I had assumed I would get one either from Australia or one of the cities I am visiting later in the year including Munich, Vancouver, Quebec and Boston. Obviously it would be a huge advantage to have a local contact. Much appreciated.
Chris


Please let us know how you go on.
Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#14 freakman

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 14:29

The leman is an outstanding proof of caran d'ache craftsmanship

I totally agree. And if only leman got a larger nib...

#15 brownargus

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:41

I have to report that the Caran d'Ache has developed a minor leak at the nib end of the section where the ink feed system mounts into the section. I'm sure that this is only a minor sealing problem but, nevertheless, the pen has had to be returned for repair which is a bit disappointing when CdA's publicity plays great importance on the testing and inspection carried out during the manufacturing process. I was also a bit miffed that having returned the pen to the dealer, who forwarded the pen to CdA, they wanted to see the guarantee form, despite the pen having a lifetime warranty for faults in manufacture. Hope to get a quick turnaround. Meanwhile, back to the trusty Yiren!
John

The pen arrived back today exactly one month since I posted it. However, given the delays due to having to send the guarantee form later and intervening jubilee bank holiday, I can't grumble. However, it feels a different pen and this is because the whole nib unit has been replaced - it was black with a silver ring at the nib end and now it is all silver! The feedback from the paper is different, it is now a wetter writer and it seems that the line is a bit broader - I even checked to make sure the 'F' was on the nib and it is. I will need to invest in a blotter or find an ink that writes less wet - any suggestions? I haven't yet decided whether this makes any changes to the assessment in the comparison!

John

Edited by brownargus, 28 June 2012 - 10:57.

Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#16 Nunnbetta

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:47

I have to report that the Caran d'Ache has developed a minor leak at the nib end of the section where the ink feed system mounts into the section. I'm sure that this is only a minor sealing problem but, nevertheless, the pen has had to be returned for repair which is a bit disappointing when CdA's publicity plays great importance on the testing and inspection carried out during the manufacturing process. I was also a bit miffed that having returned the pen to the dealer, who forwarded the pen to CdA, they wanted to see the guarantee form, despite the pen having a lifetime warranty for faults in manufacture. Hope to get a quick turnaround. Meanwhile, back to the trusty Yiren!
John

The pen arrived back today exactly one month since I posted it. However, given the delays due to having to send the guarantee form later and intervening jubilee bank holiday, I can't grumble. However, it feels a different pen and this is because the whole nib unit has been replaced - it was black with a silver ring at the nib end and now it is all silver! The feedback from the paper is different, it is now a wetter writer and it seems that the line is a bit broader - I even checked to make sure the 'F' was on the nib and it is. I will need to invest in a blotter or find an ink that writes less wet - any suggestions? I haven't yet decided whether this makes any changes to the assessment in the comparison!

John

Thanks Brownargus. I must say that I would have been a little disappointed with such a change to the pen even though the turnaround for the service seems pretty good. I like the lines of the Caran d'Ache with the silver rings at the nib. A completely silver nib just has a different appearance. I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder however I am a little concerned with how wet it now appears possibly even overly so. Could you post a picture of how the pen looks now.
Thanks

#17 brownargus

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:55

Thanks Brownargus. I must say that I would have been a little disappointed with such a change to the pen even though the turnaround for the service seems pretty good. I like the lines of the Caran d'Ache with the silver rings at the nib. A completely silver nib just has a different appearance. I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder however I am a little concerned with how wet it now appears possibly even overly so. Could you post a picture of how the pen looks now.
Thanks

I checked with the dealer and apparently all the models in the Leman range with silver rings, clips,etc., are being changed over to silver sections. I must have purchased one of the older stock though it came direct from the CdA agent to the dealer as a special order due to the choice of a fine nib which the dealer didn't hold in stock. I have now had a chance to use the pen a bit more. It is somewhat wetter but not excessively so – I am using Waterman Sérénité Blue which brings it more to my liking. The nib has slightly more tooth and gives slightly better feedback from the paper; in fact it is more like my Ecridor which is one of my favourites. The silver section is comfortable to hold and in this respect is no better or worse than the original black section. Having returned a faulty pen only three months old, would I have preferred a repair or a replacement? On balance I would have preferred a replacement part and CdA obviously decided on this course of action but of course I didn't know it would be different! In terms of aesthetics, I think I preferred the black section which seemed to better balance the overall design of the pen. Would I have purchased the pen as it is now? Almost certainly; the change wouldn't have deterred me! Below is a shot of the pen and you can make your own judgement.

John

Posted Image
Favourite pens in my collection (in alpha order): Caran d'Ache Ecridor Chevron F and Leman Black/Silver F; Parker 51 Aerometric M and F; Parker 61 Insignia M, Parker Duofold Senior F; Platinum #3776 Century M; Sailor 1911 Black/Gold 21 Kt M; Sheaffer Crest Palladium M/F; Sheaffer Prelude Silver/Palladium Snakeskin Pattern F; Waterman Carene Deluxe Silver F

#18 Nunnbetta

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:17

Thanks Brownargus. I must say that I would have been a little disappointed with such a change to the pen even though the turnaround for the service seems pretty good. I like the lines of the Caran d'Ache with the silver rings at the nib. A completely silver nib just has a different appearance. I guess it is all in the eye of the beholder however I am a little concerned with how wet it now appears possibly even overly so. Could you post a picture of how the pen looks now.
Thanks

I checked with the dealer and apparently all the models in the Leman range with silver rings, clips,etc., are being changed over to silver sections. I must have purchased one of the older stock though it came direct from the CdA agent to the dealer as a special order due to the choice of a fine nib which the dealer didn't hold in stock. I have now had a chance to use the pen a bit more. It is somewhat wetter but not excessively so – I am using Waterman Sérénité Blue which brings it more to my liking. The nib has slightly more tooth and gives slightly better feedback from the paper; in fact it is more like my Ecridor which is one of my favourites. The silver section is comfortable to hold and in this respect is no better or worse than the original black section. Having returned a faulty pen only three months old, would I have preferred a repair or a replacement? On balance I would have preferred a replacement part and CdA obviously decided on this course of action but of course I didn't know it would be different! In terms of aesthetics, I think I preferred the black section which seemed to better balance the overall design of the pen. Would I have purchased the pen as it is now? Almost certainly; the change wouldn't have deterred me! Below is a shot of the pen and you can make your own judgement.

John

Posted Image

Great feedback thank you. The pen still looks very classy. Glad the ink flow issue has been sorted.
Chris

#19 lovemy51

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 20:17

somehow the new metal section makes the pen look more elegant, tho' i'm not a fan of metal sections -not to say i don't own a couple.

#20 SHK

SHK

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 15:44

The Léman is a very nice fountain pen and when I'm seeing it I would like to have one,
but the nib is too stiff. That's why I never come down to buy one.

Edited by SHK, 08 July 2012 - 15:45.







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