Oh no! Not the Phileas!!!!

[Dan Carmell]

I could certainly see Parker positioned as a middle-tier pen maker, since they are that already, with the exception of the Duofold and a few of the "nicer" Sonnets (not an impressive pen, IMO, but you can make anything in sterling or other fancy finishes, I guess!).

 

But setting up Waterman to compete with Mont Blanc or Omas will be a real challenge, I think. Waterman is disconnected from its past in a way that MB or Omas are not. And the public does not equate Waterman with a long glorious past, unfortunately. I'll admit that the Edson, Exception, and Serenite are innovative designs (even if I don't like any of them other than the Serenite) but just can't see Sanford investing what it will take to grow Waterman into a rival for the established top tier pen makers. Well, time will tell!

 

Dan

Edited December 25, 2006 by dcarmell

[marklavar]

I could certainly see Parker positioned as a middle-tier pen maker, since they are that already, with the exception of the Duofold and a few of the "nicer" Sonnets (not an impressive pen, IMO, but you can make anything in sterling or other fancy finishes, I guess!).

 

But setting up Waterman to compete with Mont Blanc or Omas will be a real challenge, I think.  Waterman is disconnected from its past in a way that MB or Omas are not.  And the public does not equate Waterman with a long glorious past, unfortunately.  I'll admit that the Edson, Exception, and Serenite are innovative designs (even if I don't like any of them other than the Serenite) but just can't see Sanford investing what it will take to grow Waterman into a rival for the established top tier pen makers.  Well, time will tell!

 

Dan

I disagree with you. Waterman is not the US company it was in the 1930s and 40s, but so what? Who cares about what was going on then in the world of pens? Waterman is now a French company and has been so for several decades. The general public perceives it as such. And look at the way Visconti has risen up in a few short years to become one of the most fashionable pen companies in the marketplace. Certainly, a lot of marketing effort will be required to 'push' waterman as a brand, and new, exciting models will need to be introduced, but the prospects are good. And I don't understand what you mean by 'top tier pen makers' - Waterman already is a top tier pen maker. It just needs the marketing effort to raise its profile.

Edited December 25, 2006 by marklavar

[RLTodd]

Well, time will tell!

It should be interesting to watch.

 

Of hand I can think of more reasons why Atlanta, Georgia based's Newell Rubbermaid's Waterman subsidiay won't be able to pull it off than reason they will.

[Dan Carmell]

And I don't understand what you mean by 'top tier pen makers' - Waterman already is a top tier pen maker.  It just needs the marketing effort to raise its profile.

Mark--

 

Montblanc is 30 years or so away from its efforts to compete in the bottom tier of pens and even its middle tier pens are a few years behind it. While many, many people in the EU and UK remember using Waterman school pens, fountain pen or otherwise. Even here in the States, Watermans are typically seen as a "gift" pen, the type you see in the shop case with the ties and cufflinks.

 

And Waterman hasn't made an intregral filler for 40 years or more, while Montblanc never stopped making them and your example, Visconti, making a very interesting intregral filler. For folks who see pens as a type of jewelry, I admit that this may not be important, but I have a hard time taking a pen maker which only makes c/c pens seriously.

 

Dan

Edited December 25, 2006 by dcarmell

[marklavar]

And I don't understand what you mean by 'top tier pen makers' - Waterman already is a top tier pen maker.  It just needs the marketing effort to raise its profile.

Mark--

 

Montblanc is 30 years or so away from its efforts to compete in the bottom tier of pens and even its middle tier pens are a few years behind it. While many, many people in the EU and UK remember using Waterman school pens, fountain pen or otherwise. Even here in the States, Watermans are typically seen as a "gift" pen, the type you see in the shop case with the ties and cufflinks.

 

And Waterman hasn't made an intregral filler for 40 years or more, while Montblanc never stopped making them and your example, Visconti, making a very interesting intregral filler. For folks who see pens as a type of jewelry, I admit that this may not be important, but I have a hard time taking a pen maker which only makes c/c pens seriously.

 

Dan

While I would welcome an integral filling system for some Waterman pens, this is neither essential nor necessary for competing in the high end bracket. What really matters in a fountain pen is the nib - the object that gives the pen its writing quality. You may not like cc fillers, but I reckon that the majority of fountain pen buyers do not consider this as a major issue. You denigrate the aesthetics of pens by calling this quality 'jewellery', but many buyers actually place great value on beautiful pens.

[Waterman]

Well Waterman definitly has the right name, logo and colour scheme to make it a top of the line pen company IMO.

 

 

Thanks

Brad

[RLTodd]

it wouldn't surprise me if the Duofold gets phased out soon.

That would be a very drastic move

 

The Duofold is Parker's iconic pen! It's been around since 1921

I find that kind of suprising as everytime the Parker Division brings out a Duofold L.E. it must add in the neighborhood of $200k usd, pre tax net to Newell Rubermaid's bottom line. It is almost like free money.

 

OTOH, sometimes, when a large corp like N-R has an underperforming brand, one that is not carrying its weight, they reposition it. Time will tell.

[Dan Carmell]

What really matters in a fountain pen is the nib - the object that gives the pen its writing quality. You denigrate the aesthetics of pens by calling this quality 'jewellery', but many buyers actually place great value on beautiful pens.

Mark--

 

We are straying far from the original topic of this thread, but then one thing you and I may agree upon is a lack of regard for the Phileas! I love a beautiful pen also but my grounding in vintage pens pushes me to care about the filling system, and also just how the aethetics of the pen connect with the history and tradition of fountain pens. Adornment that is unconnected to tradition does verge on jewelry, in my book. Of course, those who know almost nothing about the grand tradition of fountain pens won't share this viewpoint, but then this is true in any area of art or craft: the nouveau riche come along and snatch up what's pretty!

 

I agree that the nib is a vital part of the pen, truly the sine qua non. I confess up front that I have never written with one of Waterman's flagship models, but all that I hear about them suggests that they are rather dull nails. On the other hand, I guess Waterman is to be complemented, as they are one of the last pen makers still producing their own nibs.

 

Dan

[Catsmelt]

I'm actually more worried that Newell Rubbermaid will introduce a new Waterman pen case that's plastic and you can "burp."

 

I think I'm joking, but you can credit me as being prophetic when it actually happens.

[Dan Carmell]

Well, it wouldn't be the first "burp" pen, Catsmelt: one of Eversharp's last pens was advertised as the pen that "burps"!

 

Dan

Edited December 26, 2006 by dcarmell

[BobR]

I noticed in Newell Rubbermaid's Annual Report that Waterman (along with several other brands) was called a "key brand". Parker did not receive this designation.

[pmormack]

Quote

<<Adornment that is unconnected to tradition does verge on jewelry, in my book. Of course, those who know almost nothing about the grand tradition of fountain pens won't share this viewpoint, but then this is true in any area of art or craft: the nouveau riche come along and snatch up what's pretty!>>

 

This opinion seems rather common here. Actually two opinions--old (vintage) equals better and jewelry equals bad (or shallow or mindlessly ostentatious). There's another opinion here too--that only the cognoscenti who know the "grand tradition"--keepers of the sacred flame, etc.--truly understand that pistons or levers are the right technology.

 

The constant comments about jewelry continue to baffle me. Is this some kind of macho viewpoint? Frankly, if pen makers took their cues from the best in contemporary craft jewelry pens would be much more interesting. Also, what do you call a $25,000 watch in rose gold with a fine leather strap and intricately turned silver face? It's jewelry. And very attractive jewelry.

 

This should not be an either/or propostion. The best pens should be well-designed interesting jewelry that also write well. Good jewelry is seldom cheap. Why add ugly products to your life? For the same reason I don't use Bic pens regardless of how well they serve their function.

 

Now, the Phileas may write okay, but it's not an attractive pen, in my opinion. Again, it seems a lot of people on this board will cut a pen like the Phileas a lot of slack because it writes okay and is cheap. But even at a fire-sale $10 it's not a good value because it's unattractive and looks cheap.

[chud]

I disagree with you. Waterman is not the US company it was in the 1930s and 40s, but so what? Who cares about what was going on then in the world of pens?

I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of the people who buy these pens care. The general market who doesn't care also doesn't care about fountain pens in general; a ball-point will do, and a nice rollerball or gel pen is high-end.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but not enough of them on which to base a marketing strategy, I'm afraid.

 

IMO. I'd be happy to be wrong.

[marklavar]

I disagree with you.  Waterman is not the US company it was in the 1930s and 40s, but so what?  Who cares about what was going on then in the world of pens?

I could be wrong, but I think that a lot of the people who buy these pens care. The general market who doesn't care also doesn't care about fountain pens in general; a ball-point will do, and a nice rollerball or gel pen is high-end.

 

There are exceptions, of course, but not enough of them on which to base a marketing strategy, I'm afraid.

 

IMO. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Well I think you are wrong. Only a tiny proportion of new fountain pen buyers actually hang around message boards such as this one and Pentrace. Most simply buy a pen they like the looks of, regardless of such intricate subtleties as the filling system, the history of the brand, etc. At the end of the day, most new fountain pens are bought either as gifts for other people or as items to collect and put in a display cabinet. A minority actually use the pens regularly, but they are a minority. The genuine heavy users don't generally like new fountain pens, and tend to stick to vintage pens they buy on Ebay and other places.

 

You are also wrong when you say that you can have high-end rollers and ballpoints - yes, you can dress them in the same body as a high-end fountain pen, but these pens are boring - no class, no style and don't allow the user to express his handwriting properly. These days, a high-end writing instrument is, by definition, a fountain pen. Of course, there are people who would never use a fountain pen even if it was the last pen on earth, but that's another issue.

[MYU]

The other thing that needs consideration is the target market--those who buy fountain pens.

 

Certainly those people in Generation-X and later (MTV, Boomerang, Y, Internet) don't use pens much--they text message mostly and when they need to take a note, they use the memo feature in their cellphone or PDA. *IF* they need to use a pen, it's a maintenance free disposable ballpoint or gel/rollerball. At least in the USA. I wonder how strong fountain pen sales are among the youthful generations outside the USA? The older generations may buy new fountain pens, but for how much longer?

 

Even though Waterman may be ditching the Phileas and Charleston due to a target market refocusing, I think that more model phaseouts are on the way for other brands. Can Waterman compete with MB? Technically yes, but brand recognition no. The MB marketing machine is too well established and honed. Just like Mercedes Benz. But as someone also stated, Waterman is identified as an attractive French brand. I think they'll have a good chance at elevating the brand somewhat, depending on what pens are produced.

 

Unless there is a notable resurgence of fountain pen use outside the wealthy population, all of these pen makers will have to start reducing their lines... I can't see there being room for all of them relative to demand. There has to be enough income to sustain the brand. Maybe that's why some of them like Montblanc now sell sunglasses and cologne!

 

Personally, I wish our public school systems in the USA would reintroduce the use of a fountain pen (of course at the right age--these days unruly kids would soak each other in ink). It would certainly help with the teaching of good penmanship and the concept of caring for an important instrument.

[Judybug]

The genuine heavy users don't generally like new fountain pens, and tend to stick to vintage pens they buy on Ebay and other places.

 

Is this really true? Are most heavy fountain pen users sticking to vintage pens? I guess I'm an exception, prefering modern pens. Any other heavy users out there who prefer modern pens?

 

Judybug

[lisa]

  The genuine heavy users don't generally like new fountain pens, and tend to stick to vintage pens they buy on Ebay and other places. 

 

Is this really true? Are most heavy fountain pen users sticking to vintage pens? I guess I'm an exception, prefering modern pens. Any other heavy users out there who prefer modern pens?

 

Judybug

My guess is no, that's not neccessarily true.

There's a diffence between collectors and heavy users although they go together very well too.

I used to be a heavy user in highschool and no collector at all. I bought a good reliable entry level pen and wrote with it till it broke in half 5 years later and then replaced it by the same model. Most of my highschool friends bought their FPs in a cheap department store and simply used it. If you like the way it writes that's all that matters. Getting older you may replace it by something more fancy.

 

The heaviest users overhere are schoolkids. One of the most populair pens is the Lamy ABC pen. Often the school provides the kids with a solid reliable FP that they are supposed to care for for the rest of their time in grade school. That's often the Lamy ABC.

 

I also noticed that cartridges are much more expensive in the US then in Europe. I was surprised by the difference. A pack of waterman carts is €2 overhere, and $6 in the US! In Europe people use FPs. And most of them with carts. Especially for schoolkids that's the easiest way to use a FP. That's the only explanation I can think of for the price difference. FP carts sell much better overhere.

 

I think the vintage pens use is one step further. When you've already become more interested in FPs than just to use them for your daily writing.

[ht1]

I use modern pens, and I use a fountain pen almost exclusively. Writing checks (personal) and addressing envelopes (work and personal) are the only exceptions. (I'm not including the forms that have to be filled in by pencil.) I haven't tried any vintage pens, and I really don't have any desire to try them, nor any dislike to keep me from trying them. I like the way modern pens write, and I like the convenience of refilling cartridges. I have converters for all of my pens, but I don't like using them for refilling. I also don't want to deal with all of the problems that can occur with the built-in refilling systems. No one can back up, with data, any claim of what most heavy users prefer with one exception. I'm certain that almost all use what they enjoy the most and/or find to be the easiest to use. I have found modern pens to meet my enjoyment needs, and I find refilling cartridges to be economical and simple. My second obsessive-compulsive tendency with fountain pens is that I don't want to refill my pens by placing the nib in the ink bottle. My first O/C tendency is that I buy the fountain pens I want to buy.

 

ht

[chemgeek]

Too bad. The Phileas is a nice, inexpensive, good writer with a stylish look for the price. It's a nice alternative to the ultramodern or utilitarian-looking Lamy or Rotring pens. The Phlieas, despite its price, is not out of place in a dress shirt pocket.

 

I'm guessing that this is not a very profitable part of the FP market; FPs are just not really commodity items anymore. If you need convincing on this point, just think of the reaction you get whenever you pull out and use a FP. (My top responses are "What is that?" or "Oh, a fountain pen...I haven't seen one of those in ages...do they still make them?"

 

Cheers.

[Judybug]

I hope I don't step on any vintage pen toes, but I prefer modern pens because I can write with them without having ink on my fingers. I have four vintage pens - 3 Esterbrook desk pens and a 1939 Sheaffer Balance. Every time I write with these pens I have ink on my middle finger where the pen rests. I don't have this problem with any of my modern pens - and that includes the cheap ones. It may be that all of my vintage pens are mal-functioning, but my experience has made me decide that I don't want to spend another dime on a vintage pen. If I were into collecting, I might like them just to put on display. But I have an uncontrolable urge to USE my pens.

 

Judybug