My Swan Leverless Has A Hole In The Cap Top (Not Breather Hole)

[ptrcao]

The point of this posting is to determine the extent of damage and its functional, aesthetic and valuational implications for my newly purchased Vintage pen (over Ebay).

 

Firstly, I assume that something originally adorned the flat cap top; correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

http://www.mathannotated.com/fpn/hole.PNG

 

If this really does represent a defect, then my seller made no mention of this... Listing photos may be viewed here.

 

The original listing has some more pictures, unfortunately, the missing top is ommitted out of the images by strategic angular approach to photographing - a bit sloppy and deceptive...

 

Assuming this represents a defect, please comment on the functional, aesthetic and valuational implications of this exposed top. You may decide it is more of an aesthetic setback than a functional one, or not. Lastly, what are prospects for self-repair? Could always sacrifice another pen for the cap, but other than that?

Edited February 21, 2012 by ptrcao

[subbes]

Any chance it might have been a ring-top?

 

 

(P.S. If you don't like that Swan, I will be more than happy to adopt it and give it a loving home. Free of charge!)

[ptrcao]

Any chance it might have been a ring-top?

 

 

 

 

A ring-top? Not sure, about all the details I have are on the original listing mentioned earlier. Other than that, I can take more photos if that helps to identify it as a ring-top or otherwise.

 

(P.S. If you don't like that Swan, I will be more than happy to adopt it and give it a loving home. Free of charge!)

 

lol - how very kind of you to offer! This Swan seems like a keeper though, not withstanding its bald cap head!

[red52ripple]

Do you know which Leverless it is? Are there numbers on the base of the barrel?

 

The suggestion of a ring-top is a good one. Another possibility is that some Swans, including Leverlesses, have a gilt brass Swan image on the top of the cap, but if I remember correctly they have a brass screw underneath, not just a hole. It might be that, though.

 

It clearly has an aesthetic effect and the seller should have mentioned it. The pen's incomplete. Is the cap closed off with an inner cap or is it open? If the latter, the nib's going to dry out and there may be nasty accidents with ink!

 

Value? eBay prices are a lottery anyway. It's really hard to say what one should deduct for that but I'm sure it would affect the resale value.

 

Regards,

[jar]

Many Swan pens of that era also had a clip that attached using a ring and end cap. My guess is that it did have a clip and both the clip and end cap are missing.

 

Google Swan Leverless fountain pen and look at the images to see what I mean.

[ptrcao]

Do you know which Leverless it is? Are there numbers on the base of the barrel?

No, I only know what the listing says. There are no numbers on the base of the barrel.

 

Incidentally, it is the same pen we discussed earlier in in which we observed some minor nib misalignment.

 

The suggestion of a ring-top is a good one. Another possibility is that some Swans, including Leverlesses, have a gilt brass Swan image on the top of the cap, but if I remember correctly they have a brass screw underneath, not just a hole. It might be that, though.

 

I don't see a brass screw, unless it too was detached and lost.

 

 

It clearly has an aesthetic effect and the seller should have mentioned it. The pen's incomplete. Is the cap closed off with an inner cap or is it open? If the latter, the nib's going to dry out and there may be nasty accidents with ink!

 

It is difficult to see down the cap barrel, especially since I don't have a proper torch, but that in itself suggests no natural light is able to pass through. I also shone my phone's flash light from the outside in and saw no light on the other side from within. I would guess, thankfully, that there is an inner cap which will prevent ink from leaving the pen (or alternatively drying out)!

 

 

Value? eBay prices are a lottery anyway. It's really hard to say what one should deduct for that but I'm sure it would affect the resale value.

 

Regards,

 

Yeh, I guess they would say this one was "bought in the wild". I think this seller could've been a bit more forthright, although the pen overall is in good condition. When sellers claim to have no knowledge and propose to sell on an "as-seen" basis, then I would expect photos with more comprehensive coverage than usual, so the buyer can actually *see* the *complete* picture and judge for themselves.

 

Particularly, they should show any and all defects or suspected defects. I think that this would've been fairly uncharacteristically unfinished, naked look to the cap's top though the seller might argue that it looked natural. The fact that the misaligned nib was originally cropped off the listing photo might would be fairly distasteful if I weren't giving the seller the benefit of the doubt. One just has to show everything, the good and the bad, if one is to make an honest sale.

 

I'd still like a precise ID on this pen if anyone is able. I can only provide what information is visible on the pen or provided in the original listing. Only then can we establish the full extent of the pen's defect, whether just an ornamental disc was lost, or also a clip with it.

Edited February 21, 2012 by ptrcao

[red52ripple]

I think jar is probably right about the clip. Some of those pens had a modified washer clip. As regards a precise ID of your pen - if it has a series of numbers at the base of the barrel, you'll have a precise ID. Otherwise things will remain a little vague. Many Swans are numberless.

 

In an ideal world ( a place that doesn't include eBay!) sellers might be as meticulous as you describe. In reality, to reiterate what I said before, that guy gave an exceptional description for someone who isn't usually a pen seller. I buy many unrestored pens on eBay every week. Most of the time you're lucky to get a single line of description.

 

That said, I think he had a bit of a cheek concealing the obviously incomplete cap top.

 

Regards,

[Laura N]

...

That said, I think he had a bit of a cheek concealing the obviously incomplete cap top.

 

Regards,

 

And this is why I have mostly stopped buying pens on that auction site. I don't mind taking a chance, but it rubs me the wrong way when people fix the game.

[fpman]

There are noted, highly reputable pen sellers out there on Ebay, and their pens bring higher prices (typically) because of their reputation.

 

I had a seller do something similar to the OP's experience, provide photos that disguised a defect, a distinct barrel bend (banana-shaped is, I believe, the term), but when I politely informed the seller about it he was genuinely apologetic and offered to take the pen back. I thought about it, decided to keep it, and he refunded part of my payment anyway. I gather he truly wasn't a pen person and so the bend didn't register for him. I would absolutely do business with him again.

 

I've only had 3 disputes in about 400 transactions with Ebay; two were resolved with the seller and only one went all the way to an Ebay refund (the seller apparently just up and left, with both money and pen).

[red52ripple]

My experience is similar to fpman's. I buy many pens in eBay and from time to time I get one with an undisclosed serious fault. I've always been refunded for those pens, either through discussion with the seller or by eBay dispute. I've never been stuck with a deficient pen.

 

Regards,

[Bo Bo Olson]

When a picture don't show a clip, there is none.

 

I learned if the Estie lot shows a pen closed there is no nib.

Yep missing clip and top.

 

Unless it has a real nice full flexible nib...you over paid too.

 

I recommend always on the com...there is two professional sellers in "Buy Now" who restore pens, including Swans, and they tell you how flexible the nib is.

 

I lucked into some German full flex nibs, so didn't buy from them.

I spent some six weeks reading up on Swan pens, and chasing so slowly I didn't catch a Swan.

 

By the end of six weeks, I'd decided I would unless it was a lever pen, I'd have to send it in for restoration, in there are some odd refill systems they came up with to get around patents.

Black and gold are cheapest.

There are some real pretty Swan and Blackbird pens. Any pretty pen costs extra.

 

Sigh....I was reaching for my battered and misused wallet to buy a pretty reconditioned Swan with an easy full flex nib, when I ran into a plain old German pen with a full flexible nib.

A pretty reconditioned full flex Swan is on my list to buy.

 

 

""""This pen was designed before the pocket clips were the norm for pens which could date it around c1920s"""

 

Get your money back, Swan Leverless was patented in 1932...so had a clip and a top.

In that he 'knew' enough to BS you with the crud it's '20's and don't have a clip, he knew exactly what he was doing ripping you off.

 

For @ or only a little more than amount you paid , you could get a restored Black and Gold Swan or Blackbird, with the nib flex you wish, regular, semi-flex, 'flexi' or easy full flex...for two to three times the amount you could get it in a Swan in major"real Pretty" too.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Bo Bo Olson

[ptrcao]

When a picture don't show a clip, there is none.

 

I learned if the Estie lot shows a pen closed there is no nib.

Yep missing clip and top.

 

Unless it has a real nice full flexible nib...you over paid too.

 

I recommend always on the com...there is two professional sellers in "Buy Now" who restore pens, including Swans, and they tell you how flexible the nib is.

 

I lucked into some German full flex nibs, so didn't buy from them.

I spent some six weeks reading up on Swan pens, and chasing so slowly I didn't catch a Swan.

 

By the end of six weeks, I'd decided I would unless it was a lever pen, I'd have to send it in for restoration, in there are some odd refill systems they came up with to get around patents.

Black and gold are cheapest.

There are some real pretty Swan and Blackbird pens. Any pretty pen costs extra.

 

Sigh....I was reaching for my battered and misused wallet to buy a pretty reconditioned Swan with an easy full flex nib, when I ran into a plain old German pen with a full flexible nib.

A pretty reconditioned full flex Swan is on my list to buy.

 

 

""""This pen was designed before the pocket clips were the norm for pens which could date it around c1920s"""

 

Get your money back, Swan Leverless was patented in 1932...so had a clip and a top.

In that he 'knew' enough to BS you with the crud it's '20's and don't have a clip, he knew exactly what he was doing ripping you off.

 

For @ or only a little more than amount you paid , you could get a restored Black and Gold Swan or Blackbird, with the nib flex you wish, regular, semi-flex, 'flexi' or easy full flex...for two to three times the amount you could get it in a Swan in major"real Pretty" too.

 

Yeah, I think red52ripple also pointed out that misinformation previously, which seems to corroborate what you say.

 

I believe my attitude towards the seller would've been much more forgiving if the first time I raised issues, she had been apologetic and immediately offered a full refund. Instead she got angry and defensive, insisting I had bought the pen. I know things would get really ugly if I tried, she made that very clear the first time...

 

I feel very resigned about this somewhat unfortunate purchase. Since the nib writes ok, I suppose I can still use it and spare myself the grief. Definitely not happy about being misled about the missing clip and top. But I don't want the grief of going through an Ebay dispute resolution either... I suppose I keep it for use, learn the bitter lesson and lose a bit more of that dwindling faith in humanity...

[red52ripple]

Actually, eBay disputes are generally grief-free in my experience. If you want to get your money back, I would recommend that method. However, I think you need not feel too despondent about your deal. You didn't pay excessively high for what you got. Missing clip aside, that pen is in truly splendid condition. Should you ever wish to, replacing the clip and clip screw won't be very expensive and you could still make a profit on resale. And all Swan nibs, flexible or not, are wonderful.

 

Regards,

[ptrcao]

Do you know which Leverless it is? Are there numbers on the base of the barrel?

 

Yes! red52ripple, I was paying round with it in the light today and I saw the numbers! Don't know how I missed it the first time - it's a L206/60.

 

So now,how do I restore it? I suspect it needs a new sac as it hasn't been used for a good part of a century. What sac neck (straight or necked) and what size sac? Do I need a special tool to restore it? How do I open the barrel?

Edited February 26, 2012 by ptrcao

[shrieku]

Yes! red52ripple, I was paying round with it in the light today and I saw the numbers! Don't know how I missed it the first time - it's a L206/60.

 

Interesting! I have a L212/60 which is also smooth black. It does not have a ring-top cap. It has a flat-top cap with the swan logo on top. The ball-end clip emerges from the side near the top. The cap has 2 thin gold-rings. The barrel inscriptions are indentical to those on your pen.

 

So did these models come with a variety of caps? Or does my pen/yours have a replacement cap?

 

So now,how do I restore it? I suspect it needs a new sac as it hasn't been used for a good part of a century. What sac neck (straight or necked) and what size sac? Do I need a special tool to restore it? How do I open the barrel?

 

A straight sac should do from my experience. You can use some gentle heat to open the barrel and re-sac it. I do not think special tools are needded.

[red52ripple]

 

A straight sac should do from my experience.

 

A straight sac will do if (1) it fills the barrel and (2) is small enough to fit the nipple securely. This doesn't often happen with Leverlesses, in which case a necked sac is advised. A sac that doesn't fill the barrel will not be caught properly by the bar, ensuring that the pen fills poorly. A hack that is used successfully if a necked sac is unavailable is to tie the sac on tightly with cotton thread and shellac the thread. It's better to use a necked sac, though.

 

The L206/60s that I have had have been fitted with clips. However, before the Second World War a proportion of pen-buyers wanted pens without clips, and they could be ordered that way.

 

Regards,

Deb

Edited February 26, 2012 by red52ripple

[shrieku]

A straight sac will do if (1) it fills the barrel and (2) is small enough to fit the nipple securely. This doesn't often happen with Leverlesses, in which case a necked sac is advised. A sac that doesn't fill the barrel will not be caught properly by the bar, ensuring that the pen fills poorly. A hack that is used successfully if a necked sac is unavailable is to tie the sac on tightly with cotton thread and shellac the thread. It's better to use a necked sac, though.

 

Thanks for the tip Deb

[ptrcao]

For this particular model L206/60 - does anyone know what size sac will fill the barrel completely?

[ptrcao]

Ok, so this is where I'm at in the restoration process:

 

I assumed the nib section was friction fit to the barrel, and with some force, was able to dissociate the two parts:

 

http://www.mathannotated.com/fpn/opened_up.PNG

 

Looking in side, this is what I see:

 

http://www.mathannotated.com/fpn/inside.PNG

 

I don't really have any professional implements. I do have size 16, 18, 20 and 22 sacs, but I think they are just straight ones.

 

To my thinking, I will need to

1. clean out the contents of the barrel, namely the fossilized ink and sac
   
2. Fit a new sac
   
3. Draw up some ink
   

 

I have some instructions from red52ripple above already, but any further tips and observations are welcome, particularly in light of the fact that I have no tools and have never done this sort of thing before. I may need to improvise. There is some talk in the forum about some special tool that is needed. Not sure if it's applicable to me.

[Bo Bo Olson]

A nice low rating is a good tool...for rude cheaters.