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Flex Nibs Vs Stub And Italic


jkrewalk

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I've known for a couple of years, to have a Hand, you have to work at it.

I don't.

I can still have fun with italic or nibs with some flexibility. A lazy man's fun.

 

I can see there is much more fun to be had, if only I'd work at it.

I do blame writing a book for not doing it.

Actually though it's talking pens, inks and papers; here :headsmack: that takes the time away from learning.

 

I get the same 'flare' out of pre '66 German Obliques of semi-flex or 'flexi' nibs; as some get out of Stub or CI.

There is a slight difference of course. Many are scared off by the word 'flex'. Not that I 'flex' the nib as much as I could or perhaps even should.

The word vintage scares off others. :unsure:

 

In stiff nib italic or flexible nib writing one has to know how to draw the letter.

Everyone has time to learn this.

 

It is my fault that I prefer to have fun scribbling; with this and that nib width and flex on a certain paper with a fancy ink, instead of taking the time to learn to form the letters, so I don't need a book open to show me how.

 

One learns so much here. Just this week, I learned that tiny writers are wasting their time with flexible nibs. (relearned; the info didn't take because my ignorance of tiny writers was large back then)

 

Perhaps they are not wasting their time with stub or CI nibs. Personally, I see a F stub or CI as small, but there are those who ask about EF stubs; EF CI's.

 

 

I guess if you refuse to learn to vary your script size, then a number of nib types; width & flex, are not for you.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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I would be curious to see how many people actually write with a flex nib as their everyday writer. My feeling is that most people aren't because I don't think its particularly practical. And in all honesty, I don't think either flex or italic nibs help with a person's handwriting. An italic may make the writing seem "better" by being different or helping with good nib contact, but it doesn't change someone's hand in my opinion.

 

Personally, I've really been having a lot of fun the past few days with a flex Nib Creaper from Noodlers. I already have thoughts about getting a Namiki Falcon or looking into a vintage Waterman. Do I plan on using any of those pens as an everyday writer? No. But I find it enjoyable to just sit down and form letters and focusing on the pressure for the flex. Nothing to do with calligraphy or any particular fonts, but just winging it.

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I have been trying to incorporate a cheap stub and a cheap flex pen into my writing. I suck at both, but I am going to continue learning. I do not believe that either is easier or has more flair. In fact, I am struggling equally with both! But coming to FPN has given me the bug, and now, I am dealing with it :embarrassed_smile:

 

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I think getting a stub nib with flex will give you the best of both worlds.

Not necessarily. As John Mottishaw said just this past weekend at a seminar at the LA Pen Show (I'm paraphrasing), the problem is as follows: you grind the stub for optimum line variation between vertical and horizontal stroke, but when you flex the nib it opens up the tines, and the inner edges now contact the page. The inner edges will tend to be sharp so the broad, flat part of the nib has good contact, and these edges will tend to grab the page, making for - at best - a very toothy draw. If you smooth the inner edges to allow for the flexing, you end up losing the crispness of the grind in the first place.

 

Italic and flex nibs are both paths to visually expressive writing styles, but they accomplish this with differing mechanics.

Edited by JonSzanto

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

~ Benjamin Franklin

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I have been trying to incorporate a cheap stub and a cheap flex pen into my writing. I suck at both, but I am going to continue learning. I do not believe that either is easier or has more flair. In fact, I am struggling equally with both! But coming to FPN has given me the bug, and now, I am dealing with it :embarrassed_smile:

 

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/CAM00082-1_zps8d4193aa.jpg

 

 

Maybe neither is for you. Its possible that you simply don't enjoy either. The other possibility is the pens. If you are restricting yourself to just the inexpensive pens with stubs or flex, it might be the pens are not as comfortable as others.

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ziptrickhead, what do you mean by a 'flex' nib?

 

I use as my normal writing nibs, regular flex, semi-flex, and 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex,

and easy full flex nibs if one is near in the cups; has an ink I want to use. I often have 8-12-16 pens inked.

 

I have 11 pens inked...1 nail CI, 3 regular flex, one springy nib, one hard semi-flex, 2 semi-flex, 3 easy full flex nibs.

(to my surprise I have no some what flexible Oblique pens inked....waiting to be inked yes. Also a 'flexi'/maxi-semi-flex...five new inks came in.)

 

Basically most of my pens are vintage...they were cheaper than modern. I did have great luck too.

 

I just write with them :embarrassed_smile: nothing fancy.

....ok the easy full flex I'll do a real fancy Capital L, on occasion....well just about every time, it is the letter I do best. :unsure:

 

I'm not trying to work the nibs. Just scribbling away in Rooster Scratch.

 

If you work your way up the flex chain, you develop a lighter hand...As 'noobie' I was heavy handed as are many.

Had I jumped right into easy full flex, I'd had problems of using too much pressure all the time.

 

If you mean super flex/wet noodle when you said 'flex' nib....I'm not good enough for that level...that should have an educated Hand.

I am sure there are those here with a light enough Hand that can use a wet noodle to write 'normal' should they wish.

 

As You can see, I have no idea what you mean by 'flex' nib.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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I think getting a stub nib with flex will give you the best of both worlds.

Not necessarily. As John Mottishaw said just this past weekend at a seminar at the LA Pen Show (I'm paraphrasing), the problem is as follows: you grind the stub for optimum line variation between vertical and horizontal stroke, but when you flex the nib it opens up the tines, and the inner edges now contact the page. The inner edges will tend to be sharp so the broad, flat part of the nib has good contact, and these edges will tend to grab the page, making for - at best - a very toothy draw. If you smooth the inner edges to allow for the flexing, you end up losing the crispness of the grind in the first place.

 

Italic and flex nibs are both paths to visually expressive writing styles, but they accomplish this with differing mechanics.

 

This is curious, as John's carry pen is a flexible left-oblique, a device which could just as easily be described as a flexible (bleep)-eyed stub. (BTW, I have a flexible oblique on order from him.) The relevant question is why do you want the flex. If it's mostly for feel, you're probably all right, if it's for display behavior, probably not. Better to beat on one's chest and howl at the moon.

The liberty of the press is indeed essential to the nature of a free state; but this consists in laying no previous restraints upon publications, and not in freedom from censure for criminal matter when published. Every freeman has an undoubted right to lay what sentiments he pleases before the public; to forbid this, is to destroy the freedom of the press; but if he publishes what is improper, mischievous or illegal, he must take the consequence of his own temerity. (4 Bl. Com. 151, 152.) Blackstone's Commentaries

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I really like pre'66 German Obliques. I have some 12 or so.

In a mix of semi-flex and 'flexi', I have @ 15 and @ 30 degree grinds, in OBB, OB, OM, & OF.

 

The pattern is slightly different, between the two grinds.

 

In that they are German pens, those that are pre'60; with flat...almost lacking of 'iridium' nib tips. They could be stubs I imagine.

 

Many refer to these oblique and normal '50's and before nibs as stubbish.

But they come from a stub back ground.

I had never thought of them as 'stubs', in I didn't have any stubs....just those rather lacking in 'iridium' flat nibs.

 

I just remember as noobie, thinking some idiot took a file to the 'under bump' :headsmack: . I was so wrong, many companies just never had an 'underbump'.

Some did of course, like Lamy.

 

 

Reference John Mottishaw grinding modern flexible stubs; I'd never noticed this problem with the pre'60 German oblique of some flex nibs. These nibs seem crisp to me. :blink: I'll have to look to see how crisp the 'crisp' nibs I have actually are. :happyberet:

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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This is curious, as John's carry pen is a flexible left-oblique, a device which could just as easily be described as a flexible (bleep)-eyed stub. (BTW, I have a flexible oblique on order from him.) The relevant question is why do you want the flex. If it's mostly for feel, you're probably all right, if it's for display behavior, probably not. Better to beat on one's chest and howl at the moon.

As to your first point, Mickey, I may well have misunderstood JM. However, don't you think the "flexible" nibs you refer to (his, and the one you have on order) are more along the lines of "soft" nibs? John's seminar was all about flex, including the history and the gradual changing of use and manufacture. One of the moments of discussion was that what passes for a flex nib (modern) today would barely register 90-100 years ago as a flexible nib.

 

As to your second point, I couldn't agree more. I think many people may enjoy the light cushioning of a Japanese "soft" nib without ever having any desire to flex enough to write traditional, florid scripts. A small amount of softness in a nib can, indeed, go a long way to adding some character to even the poorest of hands (like me), but if you've tried enough nibs, especially vintage, you would never confuse them with a traditional flex nib.

 

As an aside, I was helping a local friend with some problems with her pens (all modest pens). She had one of the Noodlers "flex" pens, and then I handed her the NOS Golden Rule that I just picked up in LA at the show, with a 1920-era warranted nib. I thought her eyebrows were going to go off the top of her forehead...

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

~ Benjamin Franklin

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  • 3 years later...

waking up an old thread here, but having a similar conundrum. I always find myself back and forth on stubs and EF or Flex nibs. Ive been looking to find my perfect pen which would be;

 

gold nib

larger body (but not overly heavy)

large ink capacity

simple design

 

I've been eyeing the platinum izumo series but now there are a lot of custom makers that have very competitive pricing but downtime is waiting.

 

but back to the point, I also can't nail down the nib. I like stubs because of the ease of writing while showing a little more flair, but there is something about a great fine flex nib that when used even in a subtle way has a great amount of character in lettering.

any thoughts on pen choices?

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The medium large Pelikan 400NN, has an astounding 1.95/7ml of ink capacity. :notworthy1: It will have a semi-flex or maxi-semi-flex nib; so you get flair to your writing with out you having to do anything to make it so.

 

Obliques work in those two flexes.....have 15 or so.....Obliques in lesser flex, like 'true' regular flex ('80's-97), semi-nail like the modern '98 to now, or nails are only for folks with left eye dominance who automatically cant your nib. There is little to no line variation. I had had a couple nail OB's my Persona is not CI, the other was sold. I transmailed a 'true' regular flex 200's OM, I lucked into a W. Germany 200 with OM.....and was so disappointed, there was no flair. :wallbash: :crybaby:

 

In Semi&Maxi there is good line variation in the normal nib, and great line variation in obliques.

I do suggest getting an OB as your first vintage oblique, in it's easier to use than if you started out with the narrower OF........Nibs of that era are @ 1/2 a width narrower than modern.

So an OB would be like writing with a chubby M.

The line clarity of those vintage stubby semi/maxi-flex nibs is great, be it normal or Oblique.

 

A normal 400, 400n and later M400's and 600 have about 1.27ml. The Large 800 1.37, the 1000 a bit more. I don't remember if it's 1.47 or not....which is not as much as the equal huge MB 149.

A huge giant MB 160 only has 1.60 (seems tiny for such a big pen)....about what one of the Sheaffer cartridges has. Two .74 short international cartridges has 1.48. Which surprised me, when I compared it to my 400s/600, 1.27/1.37.

 

There are some custom pens and a Visconti that have over 2.0 to 2.50 capacity.

 

If you refill your piston pen at breakfast, it should write all day even if a collage student, much less working where one can use a pen as often as one wishes. There are traveling inkwells also.

I'm going to look for Stagecoach proof traveling inkwell's from the 1880's. :D

 

It took me about two years to rate the 400nn, a slight tad of better balance than my 400. I do like the balance of the 400. But the 400nn in this case is a tad longer and after 'nitpick heaven' decided the 400nn won........of course it 'only' took me two years to find that out. :headsmack:

 

IMO you should post your Standard sized pens, like the 400, Esterbrook DJ and the medium-long pens like a P-51, 600 and 400NN. That gives them the balance one needs. Posted they are not short pens. They were designed to be posted. That's why they have so much better balance than the 'New' Large pens.

Large pens were rare in the '30-70's.... back when folks wrote 8 hours a day they wanted a nimble light pen....not a status symbol.

The modern clunky Large pen works for note taking.....but would be nothing I'd pick to write with for 8 hours a day. The MB 146 had been a medium-long pen until the late '70s when it became a Large pen.

My '50's medium large 146 is much better balanced for me. When I change to the '70's 146, it takes me a minute or two to get use to it, in it is large and neither posted or not, as balanced as the medium-large one. The '50's one has a much better nib of course.

 

If you fear mars, wax your pen occasionally.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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I will check the 400NN, but I'm not sold on Pelikans. Granted I only have one, the m200 tradition italic nib and I find myself WANTING to like it but I just don't. I can't quite figure out what it is. I love the ink capacity and piston filler, the nib is a little more broad than I would like but it works great for writing addresses on envelopes. But whenever I write with it, I always find something I don't like about it. I have a resin namiki falcon that I had a love/hate relationship with mainly because the con-20 converter was a nightmare. I recently got back into my pens and some tinkering. bought a couple of ahabs and jinhaos. Did the G nib conversion, couple of franken pens and have been trying to find a mix of what I feel would be my perfect pen that fits all my needs. one mod that surprised me was fitting the falcon nib and feed in the ahab. Fit perfectly, took away my ink capacity issue and had perfect flow. I love the size of the ahab and with the falcon nib it was great. Problem with the ahab is that it FEELS like a cheap pen. My favorite has surprisingly enough been the jinhao 159. It has been perfect, a touch heavier than I think I would want for an all day writer, but its smooth as can be and feels great in the hand. But I have a waterman converter in it so we go back to the ink capacity.

 

I have since but the falcon nib back on the resin body and have had a great time writing with it. A little tweaking has increased the flow and made it a much better writer and it's pretty balanced and nice to write with posted. I have also been told that the resin model has successfully been converted to an eyedropper so that will take care of the ink capacity. I still would prefer something with a little more body to it. I have looked at several different pens but haven't found what i'm looking for. The only one that has really caught me has been the Homo Sapiens large version. I have been eyeing that pen since it came out. and the dreamtouch nib is fantastic.

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I go back and forth between broad and fine nibs, but I'm pathetically addicted to flex.

 

One hesitates to say "flex maniac", but if the shoe fits...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I didn't mind getting a little dressed up look from an italic nib, but the flex nibs I have I have put aside. There is clearly too much work involved in developing that hand eye coordination, and I am also a left handed over writer. To those who look down on persons who just want a little flair in their writing and are not into the work of learning flex, let me pause to thumb my nose.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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The modern Pelikan italic nib...is not very italic from my reading and will be so different from an Oblique nib with some flex semi or maxi.

I have tried modern and have a W. Germany 200 with oblique.... vast disappointment, even if it is 'true'r regular flex, but for oblique to actually work it has to be semi or maxi-semi-flex.

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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Swordsmith (sorry: sWORDSMITH!), I will stick my neck out and suggest (Bo Bo will agree here) that you haven't experienced a "proper" Pelikan until you have written with one of the vintage 400s (or an older 100): those nibs are incomparable (unless you happen across one of the stiff manifold jobs)...

 

Regardless of whether you try a semi-flex or a very flexible one, they have a wonderful softness to them. I only write with flex nibs.

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:notworthy1: I so agree!!!! :thumbup:

 

And one should have springy 'true' semi-vintage or vintage or a 'normal' 200's regular flex nib, for certain shading inks and papers. I find the springy 'true' regular flex a nice writing nib, and depending on ink and paper shades better often than the wetter semi-flex.

One needs both.

 

As I said, from my reading the Pelikan's 200's italic has been said to be lacking true italic. It should be sent off to be sharpened. And you need to look into a stiff nib italic calligraphy book to see how to draw the letters.

Italic is different, in one holds the pen before the big knuckle like a ball point and cant's the nib @ 45 degrees to best draw the letters.

The book will show you how to draw the letters. ....blow the dust off the top of my book. :headsmack:

In reference to P. T. Barnum; to advise for free is foolish, ........busybodies are ill liked by both factions.

 

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 

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If you have to send an italic off to have it sharpened, it must be a cursive italic.

 

One of my favorite pens is a Parker 51 with a Minuskin stub, 1.2. Upside down it's more cursive italic. No danger of it flexing. I am left handed, and I never could make the flexible nibs I have flex. It doesn't seem to work for me as a lefty, mostly pushing the pen. They make nice fines and extra fines, though, and thus the ink usually is dry by the time my hand runs over it.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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