Judges Using Fps.

[akrishna59]

dear friends,

 

i was talking to a senior lawyer here who has been practicing very successfully for half a century and he still goes to court every day. while discussing about courtroom practices, when i asked him about pens used by judges he commented that judges use only fountain pens to write court documents. they use blue or black or ink. now i dont know about other countries, but in india a presiding judge writes down notes during the arguments and also meticulously writes down the oral evidence of witnesses on the stand. also judges write out their judgments, but in most cases nowadays it is dictated.

 

it seems that there was a time when learned judges - at the conclusion of the long proceedings - would dictate out the judgment in flowing english, running into hundreds of pages in open court to the stenographer, they had all the precedents in their head without any need for reference, or they would have done their homework before coming to court. now most dictations are done in their chambers and sometimes they need to be corrected later.

 

well, perhaps there may be judges out there who use ball pens, i dont deny that. anyway it was nice to hear that one of the most respectable and traditional positions in society still retains the class of the fountain pen.

 

i will be interested to know your views, there are lawyers on this forum who may have much more inputs.

 

rgds.

 

krishna.

[pb2au]

Krishna, I think it depends on the Judge. Here in Canada, you do find several lawyers and Judges who like to use fountain pens. I happen to be a lawyer and I only take a fountain to court. (superstitious, I guess).

 

Recently I have seen a number of judges who have started to take their laptops to the bench. They use them to take notes. Often more complicated decisions end up being typed.

 

Cheers

 

Sanj

[hari317]

...but in india a presiding judge writes down notes during the arguments and also meticulously writes down the oral evidence of witnesses on the stand.

 

Hi krishna, pls confirm with your friend, I think there are court stenographers who have the exact job of noting down ad verbatim whatever is being said in court.

 

I know that Ratnamson do supply desk pen sets to the Judiciary.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/82806-ratnamson-kalam/

[Silent Speaker]

I am neither a judge nor a lawyer (yet... getting into a law school is proving to be more challenging than I initially anticipated ), but many of my acquaintances are lawyers of various ages in various countries. I also know approximately one judge (though in her case I have no idea of with what she writes).

 

All the Germans whom I know to practice law in various forms use fountain pens. I've only ever spoken in depth about this with one of them, but I would imagine that the reasoning is the same for all of them: they were taught to use them in school, recognised their superiority and proceeded to use them throughout their university years and thus upon entering work merely continued with old and comfortable habits. (with significantly nicer pens each step along the way to mark their achievements in completing each successive "level").

 

To use a ballpoint in this case can be seen as a downgrade in the writing experience, and these fellows, despite the modern day's ever increasing computerisation, still have to write a heck of a lot! Might as well make it a good experience.

 

I've found that the folks I know from other nations are less discerning than their Teutonic counterparts - ballpoints, rollerballs en masse is the order of the day as far as I can tell. Perhaps the longer they are at it they will soon adopt a fountain pen habit? (older lawyers I know, mostly Brits and their antipodean cousins, if they are still practicing, use fountain pens - as for the future generation of Australia's lawyers, well, I can imagine a very ballpointy/wordprocessory one.)

 

also judges write out their judgments

 

I do like this very much, and am saddened to see that it is a practice that is, I would imagine, less and less frequent?

 

Spoken words are pretty 'insubstantial' as it were, even with the permanence of a stenographer's record to back them (they then take on a peculiar quality that I cannot name), but if a judge must sentence someone in his 'own hand' with his own pen in conjunction with any dictated pronouncement, then it feels somewhat more 'fitting' or 'proper' to me, as if that's how things should be.

 

Perhaps if judges had to do this every time it would give them a moments pause to think even more carefully than they otherwise might concerning the nature of the judgement that they are about to pass; perhaps then there would be less "miscarriages of justice", unfair sentences or sentences that are too lenient than there otherwise already are.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Silent Speaker

[akrishna59]

...but in india a presiding judge writes down notes during the arguments and also meticulously writes down the oral evidence of witnesses on the stand.

 

Hi krishna, pls confirm with your friend, I think there are court stenographers who have the exact job of noting down ad verbatim whatever is being said in court.

 

I know that Ratnamson do supply desk pen sets to the Judiciary.

 

http://www.fountainp...atnamson-kalam/

 

dear hari,

 

very true, but still judges write their own evidence notes, perhaps they rely more on their own acumen than some clerk as they know what will happen if a mistake occurs.

 

there is an interesting anecdote about a stenographer of a king who got suspended in the olden times for a dictation mistake in malayalam which is my native tongue. the king was actually referred to as "Rajan" meaning "King" in our language. the hapless clerk wrote it in the proclamation instead as "Jaran" meaning "one with a hidden identity who has immoral motives".

 

you can imagine the rage of the king.

 

rgds.

 

krishna.

[mikkolopez]

My 2 brothers are lawyers and here they normally sign their names with a fountain pen normally in Blue or Blue-Black ink so that it is seen as originals. I guess in the age of printers and photocopiers, handwriting in special colored permanent ink weeds out the originals from the copied documents.

 

There's even a shop that specialises in repairing fountain pens near the Supreme Courts and most of their clients are judges and lawyers.

[OcalaFlGuy]

There are a couple posts from a couple years ago where I talked about writing to and showed a scan of a short note on Supreme Court of the Untied States stationery from Justice David Souter (now retired) to me that appears to be signed with his Black Esterbrook he is known to usually use.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Edited January 13, 2012 by OcalaFlGuy

[Thornton]

I'm a fan of TV court shows and have noticed a couple of judges using fountain pens. I've seen Judge Mathis using a Montblanc Classique in bordeaux as well as Montblanc BP's. Judge Joe Brown is often seen with a Montblanc Cervantes, Jules Verne, or a 149. I haven't seen any of the other TV judges using an FP.

[matveik]

There are a couple posts from a couple years ago where I talked about writing to and showed a scan of a short note on Supreme Court of the Untied States stationery from Justice David Souter (now retired) to me that appears to be signed with his Black Esterbrook he is known to usually use.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Yet another reason to appreciate Souter!

[akrishna59]

Krishna, I think it depends on the Judge. Here in Canada, you do find several lawyers and Judges who like to use fountain pens. I happen to be a lawyer and I only take a fountain to court. (superstitious, I guess).

 

Recently I have seen a number of judges who have started to take their laptops to the bench. They use them to take notes. Often more complicated decisions end up being typed.

 

Cheers

 

Sanj

 

i agree that it depends on the judge. but from what i read over here it seems that fps have a good clientele among the law community, perhaps better than any other profession.

 

 

 

 

I am neither a judge nor a lawyer (yet... getting into a law school is proving to be more challenging than I initially anticipated ), but many of my acquaintances are lawyers of various ages in various countries. I also know approximately one judge (though in her case I have no idea of with what she writes).

 

All the Germans whom I know to practice law in various forms use fountain pens. I've only ever spoken in depth about this with one of them, but I would imagine that the reasoning is the same for all of them: they were taught to use them in school, recognised their superiority and proceeded to use them throughout their university years and thus upon entering work merely continued with old and comfortable habits. (with significantly nicer pens each step along the way to mark their achievements in completing each successive "level").

 

To use a ballpoint in this case can be seen as a downgrade in the writing experience, and these fellows, despite the modern day's ever increasing computerisation, still have to write a heck of a lot! Might as well make it a good experience.

 

I've found that the folks I know from other nations are less discerning than their Teutonic counterparts - ballpoints, rollerballs en masse is the order of the day as far as I can tell. Perhaps the longer they are at it they will soon adopt a fountain pen habit? (older lawyers I know, mostly Brits and their antipodean cousins, if they are still practicing, use fountain pens - as for the future generation of Australia's lawyers, well, I can imagine a very ballpointy/wordprocessory one.)

 

also judges write out their judgments

 

I do like this very much, and am saddened to see that it is a practice that is, I would imagine, less and less frequent?

 

Spoken words are pretty 'insubstantial' as it were, even with the permanence of a stenographer's record to back them (they then take on a peculiar quality that I cannot name), but if a judge must sentence someone in his 'own hand' with his own pen in conjunction with any dictated pronouncement, then it feels somewhat more 'fitting' or 'proper' to me, as if that's how things should be.

 

Perhaps if judges had to do this every time it would give them a moments pause to think even more carefully than they otherwise might concerning the nature of the judgement that they are about to pass; perhaps then there would be less "miscarriages of justice", unfair sentences or sentences that are too lenient than there otherwise already are.

 

very interesting point, quite logical.

 

 

 

 

My 2 brothers are lawyers and here they normally sign their names with a fountain pen normally in Blue or Blue-Black ink so that it is seen as originals. I guess in the age of printers and photocopiers, handwriting in special colored permanent ink weeds out the originals from the copied documents.

 

There's even a shop that specialises in repairing fountain pens near the Supreme Courts and most of their clients are judges and lawyers.

 

great. what more proof needed for the association between fps and law.

 

 

 

There are a couple posts from a couple years ago where I talked about writing to and showed a scan of a short note on Supreme Court of the Untied States stationery from Justice David Souter (now retired) to me that appears to be signed with his Black Esterbrook he is known to usually use.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Yet another reason to appreciate Souter!

 

grand torchbearer of the good old days, i suppose.

 

rgds.

 

krishna.

[Jimmy James]

I believe one of my circuit court judges who just retired used a Sheaffer desk pen that was a fountain pen, but I was never really close enough to him to ask. The remaining judges I regularly appear before clearly do not use fountain pens. In fact, one of them appears to sign his orders with a Sharpie.

 

I have converted one coworker (I'm a public defender) to fountain pen use. I am also aware of a private bar defense attorney who regularly uses a fountain pen. They're the only ones I have witnessed in court using such a pen.

[doodlebug]

The only time I have seen a judge use a fountain pen was about 5 years ago. During an in-chambers conference with the attorneys, the judge took his notes with a Pilot Varsity.

Edited January 16, 2012 by doodlebug

[doodlebug]

The only time I have seen a judge use a fountain pen was about 5 years ago. During an in-chambers conference with the attorneys, the judge took his notes with a Pilot Varsity.

 

Strike that--I just remembered a more recent settlement conference with an attorney serving as settlement judge. She was using a Lamy Vista. She said it was a gift from her sister and perfect for the court's NCR forms.

[stuartk]

I only know one judge, and she uses a ballpoint pen. However, I know several other attorneys that use fountain pens, and they say that it's because a fountain pen doesn't leave an impression on the pages below when writing on a pad of paper.

[fabrimedeiros]

My sister is judge (here, in Brazil) and very young - she is 25 years old- and she is crazy for FPs like me and my father. We talk about FP all the time and her favorite brand is Pelikan: she uses a M400 green striated F nib all the time. A couple months ago, her boyfriend bought her a Visconti Divina F nib, that she is loving.

[cobaltace]

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but about five years ago while serving jury duty, I did notice that the judge paused the proceedings just long enough for him to refill his piston filler. I did not see what he was using, but it looked very nice.

[ThirdeYe]

I'm a fan of TV court shows and have noticed a couple of judges using fountain pens. I've seen Judge Mathis using a Montblanc Classique in bordeaux as well as Montblanc BP's. Judge Joe Brown is often seen with a Montblanc Cervantes, Jules Verne, or a 149. I haven't seen any of the other TV judges using an FP.

 

I've seen Judge Judy using FPs more than once. I'm not sure what kind they were, though.

[Tberry010]

Had the pleasure of doing that job a few years back and took copious notes about testimony during trials-mainly to 1) help me stay awake, and 2) to further solidify my memory of who said what. Used FP's and would take several to the bench for a normal trial so I could just switch rather than taking a break to refill. Signed all orders with FP and mostly used blue-black ink.

Rarely saw lawyers actually using FP's though many carried MB's, though there was one who I never saw use anything other than an older Sheaffer school pen.

[Yohaanrods]

I know this comes in real late but here in Mangalore, India judges supposedly came into the local shops generally for fountain pen repairs. They are believed to have purchased something as simple as an airmail/Wality to a neat Cross....

[Wolverine1]

Well, one of our fellow FPN members , is a practising Federal Judge in Michigan. She uses Sheaffer Balance fps in course of her work, taking copious notes during trials, writing out long, complicated opinions etc.