Why Can't Anyone Make Good Nibs Anymore? Why?

[BrandonA]

If someone mass produces something and sells it cheap then the quality is likely to be reduced.

 

Some manufacturers are still making quality nibs. You get what you pay for.

[rockspyder]

To quote Bo Derek of yore: "anyone who says money can't buy happiness, doesn't know where to go shopping"

 

The good nibs cost more. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[twdpens]

If someone mass produces something and sells it cheap then the quality is likely to be reduced.

 

Actually, the reverse is usually true. Mass-produced articles are generally higher quality than those made on a small "cottage-industry" scale.

 

Some manufacturers are still making quality nibs. You get what you pay for.

 

I agree. Lamy, Pelikan, Pilot, Faber Castell and Sailor for example produce low-cost pens with good nibs. They also make high-end pens with high-end nibs. However, if you want the features of a high-end nib then of course you will pay more but this is true of almost all manufactured goods.

 

Martin

[phentrek]

I have a suspicion that the gold alloys, 14k/c, 18k/c, are different now than when nibs were made before the 1960s. I read somewhere that "old gold" is better than newer gold. I had a recent situation that served to feed my suspicion.

 

I purchased a 1964 MB 149 with a 14c nib advertised as being comparable to a 1950s MB nib. I have a 1950s 146 with a 14c nib. The 149 nib had a very different feel than the 1950's 146. The feel is similar to my 14k Pelikan M600 nib with added flex. There is a softer almost brittle feel. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but it's the only way I can describe how it feels!

[raigne]

What I wonder about, is why technology and machinery of today is not up to the task of matching items on par with hand crafted nibs.

 

It strikes me as odd, given the level of accuracy we can now achieve in machining and design in general. Seems we should be able to spit out dozens of high quality nibs and pencils on par with handmade stuff.

 

Machines do not work perfectly 100% of the time and nib shape is a precise thing. It's why you can tell the difference between a .5mm CI and a .6mm CI, or an XXF and an XXXF. If you want to make sure 100% of your nibs are perfectly shaped and usable specimens, they have to be hand finished, if only to test it.

 

I suppose it's possible with laser cutting and computers, but who would develop that technology for the FP market when it's so small and you'd never see a return on the investment into R&D?

 

In case anyone's interested, here's how Aurora does it.

[twdpens]

Still, I long for the day when we can have cheap, mass produced quality wet noodles.

 

It won't happen; there is no real demand.

 

As far as the manufacturers of low-to-mid market pens are concerned, the benchmark writing performance is a BIC biro. Forget overpriced ballpens, as they don't actually write any better (even though they might feel nice and impress your GF/boss/MiL). As long as a fountain pen writes as consistently as a ballpen (or rollerball) there is no market need to offer anything different or better.

 

Depressing? For FP enthusiasts, maybe. But we represent a tiny % of the pen buying public.

 

Martin

[rbadger332]

 

What I wonder about, is why technology and machinery of today is not up to the task of matching items on par with hand crafted nibs.

 

It strikes me as odd, given the level of accuracy we can now achieve in machining and design in general. Seems we should be able to spit out dozens of high quality nibs and pencils on par with handmade stuff.

 

It seems to me that mass production and quality need not be opposites given enough accuracy in the manufacturing process. Maybe it's just not yet there in refinement and sophistication, maybe it's entirely non-technological reasons.

 

Still, I long for the day when we can have cheap, mass produced quality wet noodles.

It's entirely non-technological. These days, machines can create part after part after part with acceptable tolerances in the thousandths of an inch, or less in many cases. They can do this all day long, 24/7/365 with little to no user input aside from programming. And there is your problem. Macnines don't "feel." Humans can tell a subtle difference between a nib that is aligned perfectly, and one that is not, even if it LOOKS aligned, we can tell something is off. A machine can't do that without some nasty programming. A human touch allows a part to be personalized so to speak. Since each person is different, we all don't have the same feel for pens and nibs. I have a vintage parker and a modern Vanishing Point, and I like the VP more because the nib feels better.

 

When BP and Roller-Balls repalced FPs as the modern commonplace writing tool, we fountain users were left with manufacturers that can no longer put the money and R&D into hand crafting nibs on a massive scale because the ROI would be negative. Its just economics of scale. If we took a large company like Parker, and eliminated all aspects of the buisiness aside from Fountain Pens, I firmly believe they would go out of buisiness. Fountain Pens are a tiny minorty of writing instruments sold, largely because in this day and age, pople think of them as archaic and imparctical. Technology wins, and anything old is considered obsolete, regardless of whether or not you can use it.

 

Thats my theory.

Edited November 10, 2011 by rbadger332

[Jezza]

 

What I wonder about, is why technology and machinery of today is not up to the task of matching items on par with hand crafted nibs.

 

It strikes me as odd, given the level of accuracy we can now achieve in machining and design in general. Seems we should be able to spit out dozens of high quality nibs and pencils on par with handmade stuff.

 

It seems to me that mass production and quality need not be opposites given enough accuracy in the manufacturing process. Maybe it's just not yet there in refinement and sophistication, maybe it's entirely non-technological reasons.

 

Still, I long for the day when we can have cheap, mass produced quality wet noodles.

It's entirely non-technological. These days, machines can create part after part after part with acceptable tolerances in the thousandths of an inch, or less in many cases. They can do this all day long, 24/7/365 with little to no user input aside from programming. And there is your problem. Macnines don't "feel." Humans can tell a subtle difference between a nib that is aligned perfectly, and one that is not, even if it LOOKS aligned, we can tell something is off. A machine can't do that without some nasty programming. A human touch allows a part to be personalized so to speak. Since each person is different, we all don't have the same feel for pens and nibs. I have a vintage parker and a modern Vanishing Point, and I like the VP more because the nib feels better.

 

When BP and Roller-Balls repalced FPs as the modern commonplace writing tool, we fountain users were left with manufacturers that can no longer put the money and R&D into hand crafting nibs on a massive scale because the ROI would be negative. Its just economics of scale. If we took a large company like Parker, and eliminated all aspects of the buisiness aside from Fountain Pens, I firmly believe they would go out of buisiness. Fountain Pens are a tiny minorty of writing instruments sold, largely because in this day and age, pople think of them as archaic and imparctical. Technology wins, and anything old is considered obsolete, regardless of whether or not you can use it.

 

Thats my theory.

 

I believe there are plenty of great nibs produced today. In the past few years, I have collected mostly Japanese pens, and while I will occasionally find a nib that does not write quite the way I would like, it's almost always a preference issue more than a quality control issue. In other words, while I stumble across a few nibs that are not a good match to my writing style, this does not make them "poor quality" or "defective." There may not be as many flex nibs produced today, but surely flex isn't THE determanitive factor for whether a nib is high-quality or not.

 

As for mass production, my experience has been the basic mass-produced steel nibs are often smoother and better aligned than the more expensive gold or whatever precious metal happens to be the flavour of the week. Conversely, I see more varience amoung the precious metal nibs that have been subjected to the variances of human handling.

[eric47]

I have a suspicion that the gold alloys, 14k/c, 18k/c, are different now than when nibs were made before the 1960s. I read somewhere that "old gold" is better than newer gold. I had a recent situation that served to feed my suspicion.

 

I purchased a 1964 MB 149 with a 14c nib advertised as being comparable to a 1950s MB nib. I have a 1950s 146 with a 14c nib. The 149 nib had a very different feel than the 1950's 146. The feel is similar to my 14k Pelikan M600 nib with added flex. There is a softer almost brittle feel. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but it's the only way I can describe how it feels!

 

In the case of the 14K nibs -- to keep all else equal -- it's also matter of how the material is processed (and tipped) that can lead to different feel, flex, etc.

[writebyhand]

For an inexpensive solution to your woes, consider sending your TWSBI nib (or any other inadequately performing nib) to a professional nib-grinding artist such as Richard Binder or Letta at Pendemonium (no affiliation).

[jar]

(why? people used to be able to do this by hand)

 

From what I understand, those nibs were better because they were made by hand (or at least finished by hand), not in spite of being made by hand.

 

Okay; that works for me. Why don't they have nice, high end pens that sport hand made nibs, then? It isn't labour costs - there are hand made pens. If you can afford to make the pen, you can afford to make the nib...

 

The nibs in the past were not "made by hand", they were stamped out by machine just as they are today.

 

The difference is that they were finished and adjusted by hand and that is still a slow, labor intensive process.

 

We do have nice high end pens that sport hand finished nibs and quite frankly, my experience has been that those I've purchased over the last decade or two are every bit as enjoyable, reliable, functional as pens I bought in the 50s and 60s and pens I own that were made in the 20s, 30s and 40s.

 

Some really notable examples I have had experience with over the last couple decades that have superb nibs are:

 

1. Sheaffer Legacy, Legacy 2 and Legacy Heritage models, particularly the FT Madison Stub nib ones.
2. Montegrappa 300, 400, Privilege Deco, Symphony, Espressione as well as some of their Limited Edition models.
3. Yard-o-Led Viceroy Grand, Corinthian and Pocket Viceroy.
4. Ferrari da Varese Yesterday, Botticelli and Savant.
5. Franklin Christoph (nibs finished by Mike but for Franklin Christoph and ordered/shipped that way).
6. Grifos
7. Pelikan 600, 800, 1050.
8. Conway Stewart 100, 58, Duro, with really nice cursive italic nibs.
9. OMAS modern Milord.
10. Aurora Talentum.
11. ST Dupont Ellipsis, Fidelio, Olympio/Orpheo and Neo Classique (every bit a nice nibs as on their earlier Classique, Gatsby and Montparnasse pens).

 

I'm sure that I have forgotten to mention some but that at least should give you a start in looking. The key is that hand finishing each nib is still labor intensive and a learned skill. It takes time and there are fewer people each year that want to invest the time needed to learn that skill.

[rwilsonedn]

I tend to agree with the people who argue that modern manufacturers are giving the customer what the customer wants. There are at least three aspects to this. First, many, if not most, owners of really high-end pens seem to buy the pen for its appearance and price, not for its writing qualities. So why should the manufacturer waster money on improving the nib beyond what they can buy from Bock? Second, as others have pointed out, many people who use fountain pens today learned to write with some other, rigid and nearly indestructtable, device like a BP. They are not comfortable with soft or flexible nibs. Third, most people today tend to write very rapidly on whatever paper happens to be on their desk. Writing is not about savoring the process, drawing the letters, feeling the feedback and flex of the nib. It's about getting words onto paper. That's just the way we live now. A delicate, beautifully smooth nib with elegant feedback at best goes unnoticed, at worst catches on something and gets bent. So a wise manufacturer gives the customers what the majority want, and leaves the minority to the care of nibmeisters.

ron

[Biber]

Still, I long for the day when we can have cheap, mass produced quality wet noodles.

 

It won't happen; there is no real demand.

 

As far as the manufacturers of low-to-mid market pens are concerned, the benchmark writing performance is a BIC biro. Forget overpriced ballpens, as they don't actually write any better (even though they might feel nice and impress your GF/boss/MiL). As long as a fountain pen writes as consistently as a ballpen (or rollerball) there is no market need to offer anything different or better.

 

Depressing? For FP enthusiasts, maybe. But we represent a tiny % of the pen buying public.

 

Martin

 

I think that's it in a nut shell. Once the ball point became prevalent it effectively poluted the writing experience with its significantly more firm writing technique. The problem is that we, the relatively few cognoscenti, know better and are more discerning about the quality of nib that constitutes the fountain pen experience. So the good nibs have become a specialty item(=$$). Of course everybody's mileage varies where that's concerned. For me, my favorite nibs are on a '30s Sheaffer Jr and a '40s German piston filler. I recently got both a modern Pelikan and a Bexley with a Schmidt nib and I must say I'm not overly impressed with the character of line they produce. They just seem to be more of the ho-hum same.

[Pelikan_FP]

 

It's entirely non-technological. These days, machines can create part after part after part with acceptable tolerances in the thousandths of an inch, or less in many cases. They can do this all day long, 24/7/365 with little to no user input aside from programming. And there is your problem. Macnines don't "feel." Humans can tell a subtle difference between a nib that is aligned perfectly, and one that is not, even if it LOOKS aligned, we can tell something is off. A machine can't do that without some nasty programming. A human touch allows a part to be personalized so to speak.

 

When BP and Roller-Balls repalced FPs as the modern commonplace writing tool, we fountain users were left with manufacturers that can no longer put the money and R&D into hand crafting nibs on a massive scale because the ROI would be negative. Its just economics of scale. If we took a large company like Parker, and eliminated all aspects of the buisiness aside from Fountain Pens, I firmly believe they would go out of buisiness. Fountain Pens are a tiny minorty of writing instruments sold, largely because in this day and age, pople think of them as archaic and imparctical. Technology wins, and anything old is considered obsolete, regardless of whether or not you can use it.

 

Thats my theory.

 

+1 This sums up my feeling on this perfectly.

[rbadger332]

-MY Diatribe-

 

I believe there are plenty of great nibs produced today. In the past few years, I have collected mostly Japanese pens, and while I will occasionally find a nib that does not write quite the way I would like, it's almost always a preference issue more than a quality control issue. In other words, while I stumble across a few nibs that are not a good match to my writing style, this does not make them "poor quality" or "defective." There may not be as many flex nibs produced today, but surely flex isn't THE determanitive factor for whether a nib is high-quality or not.

 

As for mass production, my experience has been the basic mass-produced steel nibs are often smoother and better aligned than the more expensive gold or whatever precious metal happens to be the flavour of the week. Conversely, I see more varience amoung the precious metal nibs that have been subjected to the variances of human handling.

This is true. I'm not saying that manufacturing CANT produce quality nibs, as often it can, and I am not saying that human error cannot result in a faulty nib or one that is not to the users liking, it can as well. What I was going on about is that typically (exceptions do occur) a human hand getting a nib tuned will result in a better writing expirience, if nothing else, because a human can understand what a human wants. There is a lot of variability in either one. Ive got a Sonnet that was tuned up by Mr dahl (777), and its not to my liking, because I tuned it for a righty. However, my VP, with its mass-produced nib, I love. All down to preference. In a sense, we are arguing the same point from two directions.

[SamCapote]

I know there are two nibs being made for current model pens that I find exquisite.

 

1) Pelikan M1000 18k

2) Nakaya Ama Tamenuri 14k

[JustinJ]

I agree with the one poster about paying more to get the quality nib. One of the reasons that I bought a Nakaya pen was because of the nib. I had to pay more for the nib and finish than a $50.00 pen. A $50.00 pen is not cheap to me. I think that you can have a nice pen for 50.00 dollars and be very happy with it.

 

I do not regret paying more money for a Nakaya. I realize that it takes many years for craftsmen to develop their art to make handmade pens and nibs. You have to pay for experience and time to manufacture. In the long run, the cost is relatively cheap over a lifetime, when you consider the purchase price of a Nakaya or another expensive pen that is made to high standards with a person doing the finishing work on the nib. You use the pen for 30 years and the price is relatively cheap.

 

I do not expect to buy a Lamy Safari and have it write like one of my Nakaya pens. This is unrealistic. I can pick up one of my Lamy Safari pens and enjoy using it. The nib is not going to feel the same but it will be much better than a ballpoint or gel pen. If I am going out in public or a place where I may loose a pen then I bring along my cheaper pens. I still get to use a nice pen but do not risk loosing one of my expensive pens. This is where moderate to cheap price pens are a good option for me. I know that when people get to write with a Lamy Safari that they usually enjoy it greatly. I have gotten two people interested in fountain pens by getting them a Lamy Safari.

 

I know some people will disagree, but up to a point you have to pay more for quality. I am not talking exorbitant prices. If you pay 25.00 dollars for a new pen, you can not expect it to write like a finely tuned $300.00 dollar pen. This is unreasonable thinking.

 

 

One of the most important things when purchasing a pen is to have it setup correctly for how you write. If you can not do it yourself then pay someone to do it. You may have to pay a little more for the pen but the enjoyment that you receive from using the pen is worth the extra cost.

[LedZepGirl]

I wondered about that too.

 

The closest modern nib that comes closest to the likes of those on vintage pens are Pelikan nibs, they have some spring to them and come in thicknesses other than fat and obese.

 

I think cost probably has something to do will the lack of good nibs these days. Back fifty years ago nibs had a lot of hand work that went into their construction, which made them cost more, but then the number of pens sold helped to keep costs lower. When people switched over to primarily using ballpoint pens less FPs were sold and costs went up. Also when there is less demand for a product a company will spend less on R&D for that particular product so fewer advances are made in it and its manufacture. Maybe that has something to do will the lack of good nibs these days... Pen manufacturers spent less on developing better ways of making fine nibs and it now it's cheaper to produce todays heavier nibs with the machinery that allows for inexpensive mass production. I think that may also have something to do with all the new nibs that are bad right out of the box- machines pay less attention to detail than a human being working the nibs by hand. Corporate greed also has something to do with it. Companies these days are happy to turn out products that are just good enough, not the best. It saves money, keeps costs low and keeps people coming back when the product breaks and new one must be purchased.

 

Another factor to consider is the demographics these days. Most people buying their first fountain pen used ballpoint pens before and people who use ballpoints are used to writing with a ridiculous amount of pressure (everyone I see who writes with ballpoints presses so hard that the pen leaves indentations in the paper and sheets of paper behind it if in a notebook). It would make sense for pen manufacturers to make ridged nibs that can cope with that amount of pressure or else they would have all kinds of customers coming back to them saying 'my pen broke the first time I wrote with it.' Also there are a lot of young people these days who don't even know how to hold pens right (they hold them straight up and down or close to it with two fingers on top and the thumb on the bottom). That would be cause for pen manufacturers to make nibs with a big, round ball on the end, allowing the pen to write well no matter what angle it's held at.

 

Just a bunch of theoretical musings, but I feel they hit pretty close to home.

 

By the way, I'm smitten with most nibs vintage pens come equipped with- Parker, Waterman, Conklin, Esterbrook, Eversharp- they're all great.

[WanderingAuthor]

You're kidding, right? Because I hope you can figure out a better way to get what you want than paying people in underdeveloped countries $5 a day to turn out nibs for you.

 

There are people who do make fantastic nibs, even to order, but they do so after a lot of training and they make a living wage, in the First World. You're not going to get a luxury nib, or even a hand-adjusted nib, for a mass market price. Expecting a luxury nib in a $55 pen is unrealistic. The point of the $55 pen is value.

 

And counseling companies to outsource their nib work at low prices to people in underdeveloped countries so you can get a new handmade nib at a mass market price seems ... well, exploitative. Those are only fountain pens. These are people.

 

I wasn't kidding - I was simply pointing out that it is hardly as impossible as some posters have suggested. There are ways it could be done. Should it be? That depends. Yes, these are people. And if they're making $1 a day right now, and they could make $5 or $10 a day making nibs by hand, then their situation has improved from what it was. Now, I'm not saying that solution is perfect. I'm simply saying that it isn't a matter of harming anyone. And if they can figure out how to get paid even more, and my grand hopes for cheap handmade nibs collapse, so be it. It was meant simply as a demonstration that there are ways it could be done, not necessarily a serious suggestion that is the way it "ought" to be done. But I still don't think it is callous to suggest something that could represent an improvement over how people are living at the moment.

 

To repeat myself, the point about the TWSBI was mainly that I was happy with it, even compared to my much more expensive pens - until I started trying out vintage pens. And since the pen that really blew me away, that had a responsive nib with character to spare, does not seem to have been a high end pen, I think it is fair to ask the question: if they could mass produce a steel nib (the Merlin Perfect has a steel nib) with so much responsiveness and character, and do so without charging a fortune, then why can't we do that now? I'm not saying we could do it with a $55 pen; I don't know exactly what it would cost. But my best guess is that the pen that blew me away was - in its day - in about the market niche TWSBI is in now. It isn't like you have to have a lot of R&D to make nibs; they knew how to make them back in the 1930s; heck, they knew how to make them in the 1800s. Or have we lost that much knowledge?

[WanderingAuthor]

I think the problem with many modern nibs (but not all) is that they may write OK and get the job done, but they often lack feedback and individual character.

 

Exactly! That's just what I'm talking about. Even the expensive nibs, the ones that at least work, write smoothly, and don't have quality control issues, they are still clunkers. It is like never even seeing or driving any car but a Hummer, and suddenly you get a chance to drive a Ferrari and an old MG. And you want more!

 

A cheap, steel, mass produced (it may have been hand finished, but it was pretty obviously machine made) steel nib has more responsiveness, more character, than I ever imagined possible in any nib. And I've got more than one pen in the $300 and up range. Sure, their nibs aren't scratchy - but they lack real responsiveness and any character whatsoever. And I really find that situation ridiculous.