Why Can't Anyone Make Good Nibs Anymore? Why?

[WanderingAuthor]

I've been trying out different pens for National Novel Writing Month. Including a vintage Eversharp Ventura, a Sheaffer Imperial II, and a Merlin Perfect. And my TWSBI. Now, I like my TWSBI. I understand, there are only a couple of nib makers left on the planet (why? people used to be able to do this by hand), and that's all Speedy can get. But I am suddenly a lot less happy with the poor thing.

 

We are supposedly technologically advanced. We have bigger and better everything, or so 'they' say. So why in the world can't someone make a nib that is half as decent as the ones they used to put on perfectly ordinary pens? Why, even when we pay hundreds for a pen, can't we get a nib the equal of one that would have gone on a fifty dollar (in today's money) pen? Why? Until we can get nibs like the ones they used to make, how can we trust that our society is capable of anything impressive? They can't even reproduce a (fairly) low tech item decently.

 

The nib is the most important part of the pen. I'm not quite with those who say it is the only important factor; I care about ink capacity, filling system, and so on. But the nib is where the rubber meets the road. How can the luxury pen makers hold their heads up when their best pens have nibs that would have been thrown out fifty or sixty years ago? :mad: I want decent nibs, and I want them now!

[pajaro]

There are some decent nibs. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong pens. Fountain pens are no longer the writing utensil of the mainstream. Fountain pens are a more or less luxury item for contrarians who don't want to use the Bics of the proletariat. So, the best nibs are not to be found in inexpensive pens. Virtually none of the pens anyone here would use are inexpensive. For most people, $5 and up is not inexpensive.

 

Montblancs and Pelikans are good. Some Parkers are good. And there are others. With fountain pens not being what the majority use, they become a lower production item with an increased cost due to lower volume over which to spread the cost of manufacture.

 

 

[PAKMAN]

Though TWSBI makes nice pens, I would hardly rate all of the modern nibs by the performance of the nib on one modern low cost pen.

[WanderingAuthor]

There are some decent nibs. Perhaps you are looking at the wrong pens. Fountain pens are no longer the writing utensil of the mainstream. Fountain pens are a more or less luxury item for contrarians who don't want to use the Bics of the proletariat. So, the best nibs are not to be found in inexpensive pens. Virtually none of the pens anyone here would use are inexpensive. For most people, $5 and up is not inexpensive.

 

Montblancs and Pelikans are good. Some Parkers are good. And there are others. With fountain pens not being what the majority use, they become a lower production item with an increased cost due to lower volume over which to spread the cost of manufacture.

 

 

 

Vintage Parker nibs are good; I haven't tried any of the new ones, so I won't comment on them. I owned one Montblanc, from the 1980s, and I've got quite a few cheap Chinese pens that have nicer nibs. A Platinum Preppy, a four dollar pen, has a nicer nib. That MB was like trying to drag a wet spade across the paper. For years, I stuck to using Pelikans, I like them, the nibs are pretty good - for modern nibs. I just used my "new" Merlin Perfect for the first time the other day. I've never had a single modern Pelikan that could even hold a candle to this beauty. And the Merlin Perfect doesn't seem to have been a top-end pen, in its time.

 

And although I agree that most people wouldn't define most of our pens as inexpensive, some of the best modern nibs I've ever used are the ones on my two Senator Windsors. I'm not sure just when these were made; the 1980s? 1990s? They're smoother than my Pelikans, even though the Senators cost a lot less. Heck, I've got Reform 1745s with nibs as nice as some of my Pelikans... And both of the Senator nibs are that smooth, so I don't think it was a fluke. In addition, they have an oddly narrow slit; I'm inclined to wonder if it was laser cut. Because I have never seen a slit on any other nib as narrow as these two nibs. But the annoying thing is that even those nibs, that really stand out among relatively modern pens, still aren't one thousandth of the nib on that Perfect, or one five hundredth of the nib on the Eversharp I just tried out - and that was one they were making just before they went bankrupt, so probably not their best effort ever.

 

Yes, fountain pens are lower volume. But there are a lot of countries where labour costs aren't that high. For that price plus the cost of materials, and you could probably get better nibs than you've got now. I think the real problem is that the money all goes into marketing, and into "limited editions". You aren't paying for the part that makes the real difference, you're paying to be deluded into thinking the pen is worth what you're paying for it. Heck, the best Pelikan nib I have was "set up" by John Mottishaw, just part of his regular service for anyone who purchases one of his pens - and his prices aren't the highest around. Sure, they aren't the cheapest, but he can afford to sell at less than MSRP, and still tweak the nibs into something better. That particular Pelikan is the equal of the Senators I mentioned, maybe even a bit better.

 

Part of it is that business only bothers to provide what customers demand. If we're willing to buy less than good nibs, that's what we'll get. Why should they spend money on making better ones when they can find buyers for what would have been considered rejects a few decades ago?

Edited November 10, 2011 by wimg
Removed insulting language

[raigne]

(why? people used to be able to do this by hand)

 

From what I understand, those nibs were better because they were made by hand (or at least finished by hand), not in spite of being made by hand.

[pajaro]

Regardless as to whether the nibs are made by hand or machine, and I think good nibs are made by combination of handwork and machine tools, if you say "can't make good nibs anymore?" you are not talking about vintage nibs, and they don't make 1980s nibs anymore, because we aren't in the 1980s.

Edited November 10, 2011 by pajaro

[WanderingAuthor]

Though TWSBI makes nice pens, I would hardly rate all of the modern nibs by the performance of the nib on one modern low cost pen.

 

I wasn't rating all modern nibs by that one pen. I own some nice Pelikans, had a Montblanc until I traded it, because that nib was nastier than any I ever got on a cheap school pen. Any school pen. True, it didn't leak like the one cheap Wearever I bought in the early 1970s, but the nib on that $180 Montblanc was even nastier than the Wearever... The only other nib I've ever tried as awful as that one was a $5 Chinese pen I got in Target, which has the distinction of being the nastiest, crappiest Chinese pen I've ever tried.

 

And my point is, I've got good pens, and I was still happy with my TWSBI. That nib still seemed like a decent nib - until I tried vintage pens. Yes, the TWSBI doesn't cost much, that's why I don't blame them for not using a better nib. They can't sell at that price and redevelop decent nibs. I understand that. But the point is, that cheap nib was good enough to keep me happy, even though I've got much more expensive pens - until I tried vintage pens, including ones that never sold for anything like the equivalent of what my expensive pens cost. Heck, the pens I tried probably sold for about what the TWSBI does now, in real terms. Maybe even a bit less.

 

And yet, with all our fancy manufacturing techinques, we can't match those nibs. Not on any pen I've ever tried, and I own a pen that cost around $800 twenty-five years ago or so. That nib is nicer than the one on my TWSBI - it ought to be - but it isn't even in the same class as the nib on my Merlin Perfect. You'd think for a thousand bucks or so, you could get a nib as good as one they put on an ordinary pen back in the 1930s...

[WanderingAuthor]

Regardless as to whether the nibs are made by hand or machine, and I think good nibs are made by combination of handwork and machine tools, if you say "can't make good nibs anymore?" you are not talking about vintage nibs, and they don't make 1980s nibs anymore, because we aren't in the 1980s.

 

With all the advances of technology, shouldn't we be able to make nibs at least as good as what they had in the 1980s? The 1930s? But either we aren't able to do it, or no one is bothering to do it. And that's a real tragedy.

[WanderingAuthor]

(why? people used to be able to do this by hand)

 

From what I understand, those nibs were better because they were made by hand (or at least finished by hand), not in spite of being made by hand.

 

Okay; that works for me. Why don't they have nice, high end pens that sport hand made nibs, then? It isn't labour costs - there are hand made pens. If you can afford to make the pen, you can afford to make the nib...

[Hangglidernerd]

You have stumbled upon one of the reasons many of us love vintage Sheaffers,Parkers,Eversharps Watermans and even Esterbrooks.For less than the cost of a modern pen one can have a delightful restored pen that feels better in the hand and on the paper,looks beautiful and just plain works.If one is a careful shopper one might,for the cost of some pens made of precious resin,own a whole collection of classic pens.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Hangglidernerd

[kkshadow]

You have stumbled upon one of the reasons many of us love vintage Sheaffers,Parkers,Eversharps Watermans and even Esterbrooks.For less than the cost of a modern pen one can have a delightful restored pen that feels better in the hand and on the paper,looks beautiful and just plain works.If one is a careful shopper one might,for the cost of some pens made of precious resin,own a whole collection of classic pens.

 

+1 on that. although it doesn't answer the OP's question. Why? I don't know. I also think the desription of a good or a great nib is way up there on the subjective scale. I have some Parker Vectors that I think have good nibs. Not great, but good. I have a snorkel that makes me melt whenever I write with it, better than my M800 that way. To me it's great, but to the OP I don't know, since we are different people and aside from some common factors (like the pen doesn't rip holes in the paper, burp or skip every other word) we would likely look for different traits in our "grail nib" if I may coin a phrase.

[Hangglidernerd]

Perhaps a small part of the problem is having to make a nib that will survive a ham fisted ball point user who now feels the desire for a fine writing instrument but hasn't a clue how to use one and is likely to blame the tool rather than their own lack of skill.I mean,if one is rich enough to spend 500 bucks on a new pen at a fancy boutique how dare you suggest they might need to learn better technique!How rude!

[olivier78860]

A few keywords for nowadays : cost cutting, time to market, massification, marketing instead of quality, programmed obsolescence.

Apply to fountain pen, "enjoy" the results

Edited November 10, 2011 by olivier78860

[Silent Speaker]

Who says "they" can't?

 

Then why not?

 

Think of it like this:

 

I'm sure that today, with all the new fancy schmancy 'techniques' to which Wandering Author alluded, "great nibs" (subjective... but let's just go with it?) can be made, and they could be made better than before, and probably with greater ease too. Then why aren't they made? If we take this position, then there is one resounding answer.

 

Market forces. It usually comes down to this people, if you need an answer to something, think of the market before postulating anything else.

 

I'm sure that today, people could produce a better Edison Phonograph (I know that there's one company that actually produces highly durable wax cylinders for existing phonographs... for those tinkerers and collectors that still maintain the contraptions... probably around 5 people and a couple of ghosts around the world).

 

Why then don't you find upgraded phonographs in your local electronics store?

 

Who wants it? Why bother to expend the effort in making something if you can't get enough people to buy your product so that you at least make some kind of sustainable profit?

 

Sure, one could try and create a market - through promotion and advertising - but that too would cost too much - there are easier ways of making a profit.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-

 

One thing that bothers me is that, with a few exceptions (that can be counted on the fingers of one hand), nibs today are 'rigid', boring affairs. Sure they might write smooth etc., etc., but so do gel pens and some rollerballs. This is, to me at least, boring.

 

Why does Waterman no longer produce their coloured nibs? There used to be such variety - more so than now, and it was clearly laid out for any prospective buyer: From fine flexible 'Pink' ("as resilient as a watch spring!" to rigid 'Green', 'Purple' etc., etc. (though, with the decline of non-electronic accounting and stenography... who needs speciality nibs like the 'Pink' stenographer's nibs anymore? .... I DO! RAWR! GIVE ME A PINK NIB!)

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

I remember reading in the Italian forum here about the Visconti Homo Sapiens; I remember reading that the first 23kt Palladium 'Dreamtouch' nibs produced for them (by... Bock?) were supposedly very responsive and soft (well, compared to 99% of the other stuff out there).

 

Then I remember reading that nibs in later production runs had lost their springiness. The postulated reason, IIRC, was that after the initial run and round of purchases, Visconti had to repair too many sprung or broken nibs from people who had bought the pen but were not used to using such a nib and subsequently broke it, and then complained to the company.

 

This is what I remember concerning the matter, it's a little vague though, so I may be (and probably am) mistaken.

 

So, to sum up this rambling, anecdote-ridden diatribe of incoherence, the reason why there are no 'good nibs' being made (whatever that means at any rate - "different strokes for different folks"), is because most people out there, the "Profane", the unenlightened masses of consumers out there who don't obsessively post on the internet about ink and pens and paper and all that other (bleep) that we here go on about, wouldn't know a 'good nib' if it stabbed them in the eye! (believe me, I know!).

 

The 55,599 members of this forum, and the innumerable "FP-curious" cowardly-lurkers do not constitute the whole world FP market.

 

Expensive FP's? Why make something 'good' when practically everyone out there won't know the difference? (how can you know something is better than something else if you've never tried it?).

 

Much better to make what you can with as much ease as possible (and to hell with variety!) in order to retain some semblance of respectability and hope that someone buys your product.

 

 

Perhaps a small part of the problem is having to make a nib that will survive a ham fisted ball point user who now feels the desire for a fine writing instrument but hasn't a clue how to use one and is likely to blame the tool rather than their own lack of skill.I mean,if one is rich enough to spend 500 bucks on a new pen at a fancy boutique how dare you suggest they might need to learn better technique!How rude!

 

I am inclined to this view.

 

Generations raised on ballpoints has made most people out there indifferent to fountain pens, or just oblivious... (this will get worse especially now that the old episodes of Tom & Jerry are no longer played on children's programming! ) - the few people that own, or have at least tried, pens from earlier era's and found them to be preferable or superior are either dead, too few, or dying; this is not the best target market for a company (that wishes to remain in business for very long).

 

Much better to sell to the masses (well, those of the masses who don't use ballpoints, rollerballs or shun the written word now altogether in favour of electronic methods of communication and record-keeping).

 

Much better to sell to the up and coming East Asian yuppie-class that has been gathering momentum over the past few decades... (oh wait - but that's what MB ballpoints are for, aren't they? Whoops! There goes the Fountain Pen! Stock up folks! )

 

-=-=-=-=-=-

 

So, lack of knowledge leads to lack of demand and thus lack of incentive by manufacturers to produce.

 

Um... what was the question, again?

 

-=-=-=-=-

 

EDIT:

A few keywords for nowadays : cost cutting, time to market, massification, marketing instead of quality, programmed obsolescence.

Apply to fountain pen, "enjoy" the results

 

"And Bingo was his name-o!"

Edited November 10, 2011 by Silent Speaker

[tanalasta]

A few keywords for nowadays : cost cutting, time to market, massification, marketing instead of quality, programmed obsolescence.

Apply to fountain pen, "enjoy" the results

 

I think that really sums it up.

 

The best fountain pen nibs I own are all hand finished. ST Dupont, Aurora, Montblanc, Sailor naginata togi etc...

 

There are some exceptions, I don't know whether the traditional Sailor nibs are hand or machine finished and there are some nice stock Lamy nibs as well. I've had a run of disasters with the broad Lamy 2000 nibs of late but remember the finer nibs with much fondness.

[Leftytoo]

I think the problem with many modern nibs (but not all) is that they may write OK and get the job done, but they often lack feedback and individual character. My 2 Sailors write perfectly well but are boring. My modern Pelikan has a little bit of chatacter but my 1930s Pelikan 100 is inked more often. I have 2 modern pens that have great character: an Aurora "88" with wonderful feedback. And a modern Parker Duofold which is totally different, being soft, smooth, and springy.

 

Old or new, the pens I use most are the ones with character even if they demand a little more care while writing.

 

Bob

[Winchester]

You're kidding, right? Because I hope you can figure out a better way to get what you want than paying people in underdeveloped countries $5 a day to turn out nibs for you.

 

There are people who do make fantastic nibs, even to order, but they do so after a lot of training and they make a living wage, in the First World. You're not going to get a luxury nib, or even a hand-adjusted nib, for a mass market price. Expecting a luxury nib in a $55 pen is unrealistic. The point of the $55 pen is value.

 

And counseling companies to outsource their nib work at low prices to people in underdeveloped countries so you can get a new handmade nib at a mass market price seems ... well, exploitative. Those are only fountain pens. These are people.

 

What I wonder about, is why technology and machinery of today is not up to the task of matching items on par with hand crafted nibs.

 

It strikes me as odd, given the level of accuracy we can now achieve in machining and design in general. Seems we should be able to spit out dozens of high quality nibs and pencils on par with handmade stuff.

 

It seems to me that mass production and quality need not be opposites given enough accuracy in the manufacturing process. Maybe it's just not yet there in refinement and sophistication, maybe it's entirely non-technological reasons.

 

Still, I long for the day when we can have cheap, mass produced quality wet noodles.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Winchester

[eric47]

Market forces. It usually comes down to this people, if you need an answer to something, think of the market before postulating anything else.

 

One thing that bothers me is that, with a few exceptions (that can be counted on the fingers of one hand), nibs today are 'rigid', boring affairs. Sure they might write smooth etc., etc., but so do gel pens and some rollerballs. This is, to me at least, boring.

 

That's pretty much what I think is going on. Today (new) buyers tend to coming from BP and RB; so they are used to pressing down on a pen. A rigid nib is more forgiving for that. Also if you compare tipping material on current nibs and to nibs from say the 80s and 90s, you might notice that's there more of it underneath, around the tip, and over the top. In my hand, pens with nibs with that high amount of tipping material feel "dead". I've seen that on Bock made nibs and even Pelikans. Why? As a store owner related to me -- after talking to a rep for a FP manufacturer -- they're doing that for people new to FP who are used to holding pens more upright like one tends to do with a a BP and RB. I've also seen with some manufacturers' nib a shift in the nib width -- they're getting wider.

 

A generation ago in the 80s and 90s, during what I consider the "golden age" of modern FP revival, you had more people who had previous experience with FPs. Nibs were more springy and/or flexy, there weren't huge globs of tipping material, and 14K nibs were way more common -- they were more like vintage nibs. Pelikan, Aurora, Omas nibs fro example from those days are nothing like current nibs. With the latter, Omas, they don't even make nibs anymore and buy from Bock.

 

At least with Western manufacturers, I see a shift today with attempts at make more springy again, e.g. Stipula T-Flex, VIsconti's Pd nibs, Omas' Ti nibs and their resurrection of the 14K Extra Flessibile nib. Some manufacturers are using 14K nibs when they might have previously used 18K. Some of the material shift however is cost -- seen the price of gold recently? Still I find a lot of these recent efforts ho hum; they still fall short of the modern 80s and 90s, and of course vintage.

[Bo Bo Olson]

No! You are not going to get the nib you want. It would cost money to machine up, get special nibs made from other stock that is more responsive. You would drive up prices because ham fisted ball point users would jackhammer the nib, and demand replacement and b*itch about P-Poor nibs.

 

It is cheaper to make the ball point user happy with a stiffer, blobbier nib than to worry about a very small customer group; that can feed itself with vintage nibs.

 

Why go through the expense of getting other stock of gold or steel alloy made up, pay for advertising to create a market, when all that would do is cost bonus money of accountants with a ball point pen.

 

The bottom line is the bonus. Not expanding a market share. That is obsolete mercantile thought; out side of Japan, China and India.

 

I have modern MB and Pelikan nibs....not the 1000.

They are 'ok' in small letters. Nothing as good as what they made in the '50-65 era.

The ball point crunch killed off that sort of 'flexible' nib after 1965, with the cheap survive spade nibbed pens of the '66-and 80's.

 

Today you can order from the Aurora factory semi-flex nibs.

I believe at Delta can get a semi-flex nib too.

Edison will alter a nib to semi-flex for you too.

 

Your other choice is to buy only modern 14 K nibs which can be made semi-flex, and send it or order a pen with a good semi-flex nib from a nib meister.

I don't know how flexi they can make the nib, semi-flex is there, but how about 'flexi' or what I call maxi-semi-flex/'flexi'.

I'm not interested in getting a modern nib made easy Full Flex/ Super Flex, just can they make one maxi-semi-flex/'flexi'?

I have moved beyond semi-flex...but not yet into real flexible nibs.

 

 

Sigh, Aurora 88 is a twist out nib; could be you could order a vintage 'flexi' nib from some one like Penboard.de or the Italian version of it.

The 400-600 Pelikan can be fitted with a semi-flex or 'flexi' 400NN nib.

 

 

Just be glad you have 'easy' solutions, with twist out nibs. Those with friction feed have to find a 'flexi' nib that fits their feed...and might as well get a real ebonite feed while you are at it.

 

Noodler is making nibs with more flex. Any one know how the Ahab is?

Edited November 10, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[eric47]

Sigh, Aurora 88 is a twist out nib; could be you could order a vintage 'flexi' nib from some one like Penboard.de or the Italian version of it.

 

A vintage 88 hooded nib won't fit in a modern 88.

 

The modern 88 has a twist out nib *unit*, but the nib and feed are just friction fit in to the collar. The original modern "long tine" 88 nibs are already a bit flexy in their own right; they're about 1 mm longer than the shorter tine nibs. I have two of those modern nib units.