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Souveran Definition Question.


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#1 Hex

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Posted 08 November 2011 - 23:17

I am browsing around looking at the various Pelikan pens and see some described thusly:
M400 or
Souveran 400 or
Souveran M400

Ditto with the 600 model.

Are they in fact the same thing ?
Beyond a certain model number, are they all Souverans ?

Thanks
Hex, aka George

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#2 bwDraco

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 00:03

The number 400 designates a size and style of writing instrument. Within each series (400, 600, 800, etc.), there are several writing instrument types, including fountain pen, ballpoint pen, rollerball pen, and mechanical pencil. The M (Mechanik-Füllhalter) designates a piston-filled fountain pen. Other types of writing instruments include K (Kugelschreiber) for ballpoint pen, D (Drehbleistift) for mechanical pencil, and R for rollerball. A designation not used in the Souverän series is P (Patronen-Füllhalter), for cartridge fountain pen. A number ending in a zero (0) designates gold trim, while a number ending in a five (5) designates silver-colored trim. There are certain numbers (such as 1000) that have only one type of writing instrument--that is, the oversized M1000 fountain pen.

--DragonLord

Edited by DragonLord, 09 November 2011 - 01:07.

Pelikan Toledo M700, black with gold trim, OM nib, currently empty
Pelikan Souverän M600, black-green, F nib, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx
Pilot Prera, demonstrator with green trim, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black
Pilot MR, Retro Pop green, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black

#3 Rick Propas

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 00:39

Sometime around 2000, Pelikan applied the name Souverän to all of the 400-1000 models. It was meant as an equivalent to Meisterstück, Montblanc's longtime designation for their top of the line models.

#4 bwDraco

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 01:12

Sometime around 2000, Pelikan applied the name Souverän to all of the 400-1000 models. It was meant as an equivalent to Meisterstück, Montblanc's longtime designation for their top of the line models.


This isn't true. The Souverän brand was introduced in 1987 when the M800 was launched. Souverän is German for "sovereign."

--DragonLord

Edited by DragonLord, 09 November 2011 - 01:41.

Pelikan Toledo M700, black with gold trim, OM nib, currently empty
Pelikan Souverän M600, black-green, F nib, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx
Pilot Prera, demonstrator with green trim, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black
Pilot MR, Retro Pop green, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black

#5 Bipedallou

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 02:12

The number 400 designates a size and style of writing instrument. Within each series (400, 600, 800, etc.), there are several writing instrument types, including fountain pen, ballpoint pen, rollerball pen, and mechanical pencil. The M (Mechanik-Füllhalter) designates a piston-filled fountain pen. Other types of writing instruments include K (Kugelschreiber) for ballpoint pen, D (Drehbleistift) for mechanical pencil, and R for rollerball. A designation not used in the Souverän series is P (Patronen-Füllhalter), for cartridge fountain pen. A number ending in a zero (0) designates gold trim, while a number ending in a five (5) designates silver-colored trim. There are certain numbers (such as 1000) that have only one type of writing instrument--that is, the oversized M1000 fountain pen.

--DragonLord


DragnoLord, I think you are the right person to ask since you have knowledge of the numbering system used by Pelikan. Some fountain pens in the Souveran series, have the letter N or a double NN at the end, (i.e. 400N, 400NN). What does it, or do they, signify? Just curious.
Oh yea, again just for my own FYI, how do the the 700 and 900 series enter into the established system? And I guess earlier ones too, in the 100-300 number range, were these the Traditional Series Pens?
Lou,

#6 bwDraco

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 03:30

DragnoLord, I think you are the right person to ask since you have knowledge of the numbering system used by Pelikan. Some fountain pens in the Souveran series, have the letter N or a double NN at the end, (i.e. 400N, 400NN). What does it, or do they, signify? Just curious.
Oh yea, again just for my own FYI, how do the the 700 and 900 series enter into the established system? And I guess earlier ones too, in the 100-300 number range, were these the Traditional Series Pens?
Lou,


The 400, 400N, and 400NN were released in the 1950s, predating the Souverän series by some three decades. The N and NN mean that they were updated versions of the 400. See 1951-1982 - The "striped" Pelikan fountain pen - Pelikan. The 400 was relaunched as the M400 in 1982 and was branded "Souverän" in 1987, along with several other models including the M600 and M800 launching that year.

The Toledo 700 and 900 series pens are a continuation of the 1932 T111 Toledo, launched in 1986. I do not know much more about the history of these pens.

The pens numbered 100-300 were the first Pelikan fountain pens made; see 1929-1950 - The piston filling mechanism - Pelikan. As far as I am aware, the marbled versions of the modern entry-level M150 and M200 (which are rather hard to find) are inspired, at least to some extent, by these historical pens.

--DragonLord

Edited by DragonLord, 09 November 2011 - 03:57.

Pelikan Toledo M700, black with gold trim, OM nib, currently empty
Pelikan Souverän M600, black-green, F nib, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx
Pilot Prera, demonstrator with green trim, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black
Pilot MR, Retro Pop green, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black

#7 wtlh

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:04

May I also add that

All versions ending 00 or 05 corresponds to standard series, gold trim or silver trim
All versions ending 15, 20, 40 or 25 corresponds to Special Edition pens or pens with sterling silver parts.
All versions ending 50 corresponds to pens with gold plated sterling silver parts

In the current range the leading digit corresponds to size: From smallest to largest (also proportional to price increase)

M3xx
M4xx
M6xx
M8xx
M10xx

Note that 7xx and 9xx are reserved for the toledo range, 7xx being the same size as a 4xx pen, and 9xx being the same size as 8xx pen. The 5xx series was originally used strictly for models export to the far east, and has since been discontinued, one may some times see one in Japan.

Numbers 1xx and 2xx are now for pens in the Classical range.

Note that there was a change of pen size and model definition in early 90s, where the old M4xx line (with less trim) was discontinued, and the old M600 line (identical to today's M400) was renamed to M400, and a new line of larger pens with size in between M4xx and M8xx being introduced and called M6xx (this is the M6xx we see today).

All of the model numbers beginning with M are introduced after the introduction of the first M800 and the Souverän line, with Pelikan aiming to enter the Luxury end of the market. The pens before that are mostly the "400" series introduced after the war in 50s, with 400N and 400NN corresponding to "newer" and "even newer" (i.e. updated) version of the 400. But remember 400 is not part of the Souverän line, it is before that, though one may argue that the original (now discontinued) M400 is essentially a 400.

Before 400, there is the original Pelikan 100 series and its variants. 100 corresponds to the original Pelikan piston filler, and 101 corresponds the 100 models with celluloid instead of hard rubber parts, and just as the 400 series, letters N and NN after the number corresponds to updates in the design. And 11x series corresponds to high end pens with precious metal parts etc aimed for the luxury market.

From time to time, Pelikan releases remakes of its classic models, and still includes them in the Souverän line. Examples are:

M415 (discontinued), which is a special edition remake of the classic 400
M101N (still selling), which is a special edition remake of the 101N
1931 Original series. which are limited edition remake of the original 100

Edited by wtlh, 09 November 2011 - 11:13.


#8 eric47

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:03

All versions ending 50 corresponds to pens with gold plated sterling silver parts
...
Note that 7xx and 9xx are reserved for the toledo range, 7xx being the same size as a 4xx pen, and 9xx being the same size as 8xx pen.


And the M730 with sterling cap and piston knob, the M750 Jubilee (silver), and M760 Jubilee (gold)? See here for a photo.

Edited by eric47, 09 November 2011 - 12:05.

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#9 beak

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 12:48

..........


Interesting and thanks. Should we understand the N in 400N (etc.) to stand for 'Neu'?

Edited by beak, 09 November 2011 - 12:49.

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#10 watch_art

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 13:06

Numbers 1xx and 2xx are now for pens in the Classical range.


When did this happen?


thanks

fpn_1432247667__cropped-20150427_0641231 sigpic14481_1.gif vanness.jpg?t=1321916122


#11 bwDraco

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 13:51

Numbers 1xx and 2xx are now for pens in the Classical range.


When did this happen?


thanks


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were launched in the 1980s alongside the Souverän series. These entry-level writing instruments were (and still are) meant to be lower-cost alternatives to the Souverän line, with a classic design that resembles, at least to some extent, the historical 100 series pens.

--DragonLord

Edited by DragonLord, 09 November 2011 - 13:51.

Pelikan Toledo M700, black with gold trim, OM nib, currently empty
Pelikan Souverän M600, black-green, F nib, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx
Pilot Prera, demonstrator with green trim, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black
Pilot MR, Retro Pop green, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black

#12 thequinox

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 22:16

Numbers 1xx and 2xx are now for pens in the Classical range.


When did this happen?


thanks


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they were launched in the 1980s alongside the Souverän series. These entry-level writing instruments were (and still are) meant to be lower-cost alternatives to the Souverän line, with a classic design that resembles, at least to some extent, the historical 100 series pens.

--DragonLord

That's my understanding as well.

#13 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 23:11

I always wondered in that they had the M400 out why a '600' came out. I know it was the same length, but was it the same girth?
Or was it just a red stripped pen for extra? When did the small ring by the piston come into being.
Why make two 400's and charge a lot for the second...and it wasn't even tortoise. '83-96 for 400 tortoise. '82-97 for the regular 400 Sovereign.


I just ran into Pen Lovers...and I think they have a wrong date with a '55 '400'. I know mine is from '90 because of the Germany instead of W. Germany on the cap ring.
I got a '56 400NN....yep, I know it's a '56 it has a friction feed. :headsmack:

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany      Info on Bock nibs

 

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Semi-flex is an “almost” flex; not a ‘flex’ nib. It is great for regular writing with a touch of flair. It can give you some fancy; but it is not made for real fancy writing. For bit more of that get a maxi-semi-flex. Both spread tines 3X.  Those are not "Flex" nibs. 

 

Wider than Normal does not exist. Wider than Japanese does. Every company has it's very own standard + slop/tolerance. Developed from the users of it's pens and inks only; not the users or inks of other companies pens. The size you grind a nib to, is your standard only. Paper and ink matter to nib width. Thank god for 1/2 sizes or it would be boring.


#14 zuku

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:09

The number 400 designates a size and style of writing instrument. Within each series (400, 600, 800, etc.), there are several writing instrument types, including fountain pen, ballpoint pen, rollerball pen, and mechanical pencil. The M (Mechanik-Füllhalter) designates a piston-filled fountain pen. Other types of writing instruments include K (Kugelschreiber) for ballpoint pen, D (Drehbleistift) for mechanical pencil, and R for rollerball. A designation not used in the Souverän series is P (Patronen-Füllhalter), for cartridge fountain pen. A number ending in a zero (0) designates gold trim, while a number ending in a five (5) designates silver-colored trim. There are certain numbers (such as 1000) that have only one type of writing instrument--that is, the oversized M1000 fountain pen.

--DragonLord


OMG, I love when I actually undertand somthing!
Thanks DragonLord!

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#15 eric47

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:19

Note that there was a change of pen size and model definition in early 90s, where the old M4xx line (with less trim) was discontinued, and the old M600 line (identical to today's M400) was renamed to M400, and a new line of larger pens with size in between M4xx and M8xx being introduced and called M6xx (this is the M6xx we see today).


I always wondered in that they had the M400 out why a '600' came out. I know it was the same length, but was it the same girth?
Or was it just a red stripped pen for extra? When did the small ring by the piston come into being.
Why make two 400's and charge a lot for the second...and it wasn't even tortoise.


Bo Bo, the original M600 is *exactly the same size* (width, girth, diameter, etc.) as the M400 (old and current). It has an extra trim ring on the section and piston knob, and a second ring on the cap compared to the old-style M400 of its day. See here for dimensions; you need to look for the M600 before 1997. Also see this old FPN ad for photos.

They aren't quite identical to the current M400 however. The old-style M600 has only one trim ring on the piston, while the current M400 has two. Also the original M600 came 18K nibs -- I'm pretty sure all two-tone. Mine is 'E|F' hallmarked, just like the nib on my Toledo; I have 3-4 'E|F' hallmarked 18K nibs -- some of my very best modern Pelikan nibs. Not 100% sure, but if 1997 is the correct year for switch (using the date from ruettinger-web), that might also indicate the change from the engraved logo cap top to the silk-screened. Old-style M400 and M600s have engraved logos. I'm not sure about the the 1997+ M400s, but certainly my M600 purchased shortly after its release has a silk-screened logo.
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#16 bwDraco

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 15:30

Old-style M400 and M600s have engraved logos. I'm not sure about the the 1997+ M400s, but certainly my M600 purchased shortly after its release has a silk-screened logo.


Note that Pelikan introduced a metal logo in September 2010 on Souverän, Toledo, and Ductus writing instruments as well as newer Special Editions:

Posted Image
Pelikan Souverän M600: Logo On Cap by DragonLord878, on Flickr

--DragonLord

Edited by DragonLord, 11 November 2011 - 15:30.

Pelikan Toledo M700, black with gold trim, OM nib, currently empty
Pelikan Souverän M600, black-green, F nib, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx
Pilot Prera, demonstrator with green trim, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black
Pilot MR, Retro Pop green, F nib, Sheaffer Skrip Jet Black

#17 Niagara Falls

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 18:33

May I also add that

All versions ending 00 or 05 corresponds to standard series, gold trim or silver trim
All versions ending 15, 20, 40 or 25 corresponds to Special Edition pens or pens with sterling silver parts.
All versions ending 50 corresponds to pens with gold plated sterling silver parts

In the current range the leading digit corresponds to size: From smallest to largest (also proportional to price increase)

M3xx
M4xx
M6xx
M8xx
M10xx

Note that 7xx and 9xx are reserved for the toledo range, 7xx being the same size as a 4xx pen, and 9xx being the same size as 8xx pen. The 5xx series was originally used strictly for models export to the far east, and has since been discontinued, one may some times see one in Japan.

Numbers 1xx and 2xx are now for pens in the Classical range.

Note that there was a change of pen size and model definition in early 90s, where the old M4xx line (with less trim) was discontinued, and the old M600 line (identical to today's M400) was renamed to M400, and a new line of larger pens with size in between M4xx and M8xx being introduced and called M6xx (this is the M6xx we see today).

All of the model numbers beginning with M are introduced after the introduction of the first M800 and the Souverän line, with Pelikan aiming to enter the Luxury end of the market. The pens before that are mostly the "400" series introduced after the war in 50s, with 400N and 400NN corresponding to "newer" and "even newer" (i.e. updated) version of the 400. But remember 400 is not part of the Souverän line, it is before that, though one may argue that the original (now discontinued) M400 is essentially a 400.

Before 400, there is the original Pelikan 100 series and its variants. 100 corresponds to the original Pelikan piston filler, and 101 corresponds the 100 models with celluloid instead of hard rubber parts, and just as the 400 series, letters N and NN after the number corresponds to updates in the design. And 11x series corresponds to high end pens with precious metal parts etc aimed for the luxury market.

From time to time, Pelikan releases remakes of its classic models, and still includes them in the Souverän line. Examples are:

M415 (discontinued), which is a special edition remake of the classic 400
M101N (still selling), which is a special edition remake of the 101N
1931 Original series. which are limited edition remake of the original 100

The number 101 of the old pelikans means pens with caps made of the same material as the binde. The regular 100's have black caps, the 101 perhaps red (for the tortoise) or lapislazuli etc...
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#18 vinper

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 18:17

I'm afraid that I'm still a bit confused. I just bought my first Pelikan FP, a Polar Lights, M 640. Is this pen part of the Souveran series, or does the 600 designation refer to the size of the pen only? Thanks for any light you can shed on this issue. vinper

#19 CatBookMom

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 21:31

Thanks to all for the fascinating information about Pelikan numbering; it's so confusing to the pen newbies like me.

I have a green-striped M400 bought new in 1997-8, with an incised logo, with a thin line of green at the bottom of the incised lines; and a white tortoise M400 bought second-hand last year with a gold-on-black silk screened logo. I think the white tortoise had been a recent purchase, just not suited to the original buyer's preference. I love both of them, and now I understand how to describe them accurately.

Edited to ask:
My 1997 pen has a yellow gold-only F nib; the tortoise is a two-toned M. Is the color difference just cosmetic or is it also related to the date of manufacture?

Edited by CatBookMom, 17 April 2012 - 21:48.


#20 Mags

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 14:21

I totally need to copy all this great Pelikan history down. What an informative thread.
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