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Pharmacist's Urkundentinte Iron Gall


DanielCoffey

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The corriosion of historic iron gall inks is based on both the acidity and the suboptimal ratio between the tannic/gallic acid and the ferrous ions. If there is too much iron in the ink, the free metal ion will cause a cascade of chemical reactions which destroys the paper fibers.

 

Now both hydrochloric and sulphuric acid are almost equally potent, but sulphuric acid concentrates when the ink evaporates. Hydrochloric acid is a dissolved gas (hydrogene chloride) and will evaporate when the ink dries.

................

 

RGH

 

 

Come to think of it surely sulphuric acid would dissociate into H2O and SO3 gas as it dried?

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That is truly beautiful.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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The corriosion of historic iron gall inks is based on both the acidity and the suboptimal ratio between the tannic/gallic acid and the ferrous ions. If there is too much iron in the ink, the free metal ion will cause a cascade of chemical reactions which destroys the paper fibers.

 

Now both hydrochloric and sulphuric acid are almost equally potent, but sulphuric acid concentrates when the ink evaporates. Hydrochloric acid is a dissolved gas (hydrogene chloride) and will evaporate when the ink dries.

 

I have now made some ink more or less using your recipe. Since I could not buy Gallic acid I had to make my own by chemical hydrolysis of Tannic acid - in the end very easy. No I did not boil in HCl, and I precipitated out the fairly insoluble Gallic acid to purify it.

 

I occurred to me that a solution of Ferrous Sulphate in Hydrochloric acid will be an equilibrium between Ferrous Chloride (and possibly Ferrous Gallate etc - unless that acts as a ligand rather than an ion) and Sulphuric acid.

 

 

Interestingly when I added Strontium Carbonate (readily available if you are a potter as well), there is an obvious reaction with acid to release carbon dioxide, and a large amount of white precipitate which I can only imagine is Strontium Sulphate (Strontium chloride is relatively soluble). A similar reaction with HCl alone also produces no precipitate. So H+ exists in the same space as SO42- and Cl-. I am therefore unconvinced that there will be no "sulphuric acid" remaining behind after the ink has dried, especially since I believe the dark black pigment is Iron Gallo/tannate, which would imply free sulphate ions associating with free H+.

 

I am also wondering whether ink made with Ferrous Chloride WOULD on the other hand do exactly what you say - or whether my ink with the Sulphate ions removed with Strontium carbonate is less acidic post drying.

 

Unfortunately I doubt either of us will be around long enough to tell.

 

RGH

 

Ferrous chlorid is equally good and is a valid alternative to ferrous sulphate and might indeed be less acidic after drying. Please note: the original formula already calculates for the optimal balance for the rest acidity on paper and in the wet ink.

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The corriosion of historic iron gall inks is based on both the acidity and the suboptimal ratio between the tannic/gallic acid and the ferrous ions. If there is too much iron in the ink, the free metal ion will cause a cascade of chemical reactions which destroys the paper fibers.

 

Now both hydrochloric and sulphuric acid are almost equally potent, but sulphuric acid concentrates when the ink evaporates. Hydrochloric acid is a dissolved gas (hydrogene chloride) and will evaporate when the ink dries.

................

 

RGH

 

 

Come to think of it surely sulphuric acid would dissociate into H2O and SO3 gas as it dried?

 

No this reaction is almost 100 % one way only due to the enthalpic optimal balance in the H2SO4 molecule. I think you should know this as a scientist. Maybe using extreme heating will dissociate it again into the gaseous state, but I think your paper will disintegrate....

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I too have a "pre-phenol" batch of pharmacist's urkundentinte ink and find that it goes to black or near black over time, usually faster than a week or so though. Generally, a few hours does the trick though that does depend upon the paper. For some reason, on bagasse type paper it takes a long time and never does reach the intensity of darkness of most other papers. I find pharmacist's ink to be very slightly more prone to feathering than other i-g inks such as Diamine's and ESS's Registrar's Inks but still way less than most conventional inks. I really enjoy watching the rapid color change of pharmacist's i-g ink and it's great water resistance. I think he has done a great job with this ink and it is one of my favorites to use since receiving it. Highly recommended!

 

nmxcop

I've noticed that ESS Registrars ink takes a long time to darken on Bagasse paper too. I'd imagine that the same would be true of Diamine, as both ESS and the latter are made by the same company.

 

In addition to ESS Registrars ink, I have Lamy Blue Black and Mont Blanc Midnight Blue. I might get a bottle of Urkundentinte to go with them.

 

Chris B.

 

 

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I read in another thread about IG inks that they're only harmful to normal steel, and that modern nibs are stainless so they're OK. I intend to follow the advice about regular flushing though.

I put ESS Registrars ink in a very cheap (and I mean cheap - 49 pence from Ryman!) Chinese pen and it rotted it completely. But I've also had it in another low cost Chinese pen for over a year now with no problems of any kind. And in the latter case, I've deliberately kept it without flushing or cleaning to see what would happen. The pen's still going as well as ever. Whenever it stops, it's either run out of ink or a swill under the tap gets it going again.

 

I might add though, that I wouldn't recommend treating pens this way with iron gall inks.

 

Apart from that, I have also noticed that ESS Registrars ink seems to have stained the steel nib of my Parker Latitude a feint blue colour. There are also some black marks near the base of the nib, but I'm not certain whether these are corrosion or deposits. The blue colouration isn't unattractive but maybe iron gall inks are contraindicated in this pen. I've not noticed this in any other pens including many other Parkers, so it seems to be a peculiarity of the Latitude. Otherwise I've had no problems with iron galls other than a tendency to slight hard starting when I've had ESS Registrars or MB Midnight Blue in some Parker pens.

 

So with one or two exceptions, I think modern ferrogallic inks are more or less benign.

 

Chris B.

Edited by Ipno Tizer
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Interesting thread, and I definitely will need to add an iron gall to the ink stockpile. I really like the Urkundentinte!

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I too have a "pre-phenol" batch of pharmacist's urkundentinte ink and find that it goes to black or near black over time, usually faster than a week or so though. Generally, a few hours does the trick though that does depend upon the paper. For some reason, on bagasse type paper it takes a long time and never does reach the intensity of darkness of most other papers. I find pharmacist's ink to be very slightly more prone to feathering than other i-g inks such as Diamine's and ESS's Registrar's Inks but still way less than most conventional inks. I really enjoy watching the rapid color change of pharmacist's i-g ink and it's great water resistance. I think he has done a great job with this ink and it is one of my favorites to use since receiving it. Highly recommended!

 

nmxcop

I've noticed that ESS Registrars ink takes a long time to darken on Bagasse paper too. I'd imagine that the same would be true of Diamine, as both ESS and the latter are made by the same company.

 

In addition to ESS Registrars ink, I have Lamy Blue Black and Mont Blanc Midnight Blue. I might get a bottle of Urkundentinte to go with them.

 

Chris B.

 

ESS Registrars' Ink is made by Trodat, not Diamine.

 

I would like to add that yesterday I inadvertantly spilled coffee over a page of notes written in Urkundentinte, and it survived admirably!

Edited by chris.hale
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I too have a "pre-phenol" batch of pharmacist's urkundentinte ink and find that it goes to black or near black over time, usually faster than a week or so though. Generally, a few hours does the trick though that does depend upon the paper. For some reason, on bagasse type paper it takes a long time and never does reach the intensity of darkness of most other papers. I find pharmacist's ink to be very slightly more prone to feathering than other i-g inks such as Diamine's and ESS's Registrar's Inks but still way less than most conventional inks. I really enjoy watching the rapid color change of pharmacist's i-g ink and it's great water resistance. I think he has done a great job with this ink and it is one of my favorites to use since receiving it. Highly recommended!

 

nmxcop

I've noticed that ESS Registrars ink takes a long time to darken on Bagasse paper too. I'd imagine that the same would be true of Diamine, as both ESS and the latter are made by the same company.

 

In addition to ESS Registrars ink, I have Lamy Blue Black and Mont Blanc Midnight Blue. I might get a bottle of Urkundentinte to go with them.

 

Chris B.

 

ESS Registrars' Ink is made by Trodat, not Diamine.

 

I would like to add that yesterday I inadvertantly spilled coffee over a page of notes written in Urkundentinte, and it survived admirably!

 

Hi Chris, this is how it meant to be :thumbup: It should resist submerging in water and even alcohol for hours without bleeding or dissolving. I am afraid after a few hours the paper has been desintegrated into a meshy pulp....

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This is most interesting.

I am in Singapore . How would I obtain some of this ink? :wacko:

 

Also, I have heard that Iron Gall Inks tend to be dry? Is this true? I have never tried one before.

I have done some experimentation with Glycerine and it does appear to improve the lubrication.

If the IG ink is dry, maybe a bit of glycerine might help? :eureka:

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Jag

Holiness is not in religion. It is in compassion and right action in mind and heart

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Jagdeep - did you read the typed text of the review? I commented on the flow of the ink there.

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Jagdeep - did you read the typed text of the review? I commented on the flow of the ink there.

 

+1

 

Also Pharmacist's published recipe (I think this particular one has been tweaked) contains 5% Glycerol. I have used his recipe to make my own ink - it is a very good, easy to follow recipe. (It is in the "make your own ink", 'pinned' thread.) Depending on the nib it can feel a little dry (but not that bad), however, while adding extra glycerol does increase the wetness, and helps a little with lubrication, it also increases the feathering and bleedthrough. There is therefore, a happy medium.

 

Edited for clarity

Edited by RGH
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Yesterday I received this ink. IMO it is a great ink and my experience with it so far seems to match Daniel's. The color change is impressive and a joy to watch.

 

 

It just might become one of my favorite inks.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

After writing several pages with this ink, I really like the shading of this ink. Furthermore it flows nicely from the pens I tried with it.

 

 

 

The only minus is that it is a bit more prone to feathering compared to RK Scabiosa, the other IG ink I use (Scabiosa is extremely feathering resistant though).

 

 

As a bonus, Urkundentinte has a 'old-fashioned ink' smell.

 

 

 

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  • 5 years later...

so how does one buy inks from Pharmacist's?

 

That's a good question, and, sadly, one for which I have no answer. :(

He was mostly doing it as a hobby, I think. Unfortunately he hasn't been around these parts much recently. Several years ago he came out with other colors of IG inks besides the blue black (this was way before anyone knew about Konrad in Poland and the KWZi inks) Then the next year he had some batches go bad and then had a family emergency. More recently he had to do a lot of traveling for his job. Then the last year or so, he hasn't seemed to be around at all. I hope he's okay, because in my dealings with him (ordering inks) he was a really good guy.

I suppose you could go to the Members Page (not sure if with one post under your belt you can do that yet, though) and send him a message asking if he's going to be doing any ink brewing next spring.

I'll admit that I waffle between hoarding my one partially used bottle of Turkish Night (cyan, which oxidized to green) and worrying that it will go bad and I'll end up with precipitated out particles in the bottom of the bottle (and much as I love a lot of the KWZI inks I've tried, IG Turquoise is -- while it has amazing shading -- just NOT the same color.... :( And I would love to get my hands on a bottle of Urkundentinte as well -- someone gave me a sample of that at a pen club meeting several years ago and it just leaves Diamine Registrar's in the dust.... Plus I wanted to try some of the other colors as well -- even the red (don't remember the name of that offhand), which he didn't like after he made it (but a lot of people whined at him "But, but... it's a *red* IG ink!").

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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  • 2 weeks later...

I sent Pharmacist a message today but I don't expect an answer soon. Perhaps I will follow his recipe and attempt my own batch if I can find the link to it.

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