Swan Mabie Todd Question

[Scrawler]

I have positively identified this as a Noblest Zhenjue 930 pen and the curvature of the nib could very well be a Chinese calligraphy nib.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Scrawler

[Cob]

Did you click on the right arrow? That really is a Montblanc.

Obviously I didn't.

 

I think I was confused by the link - and all the fancy plated stuff; very un-Mabie Todd!

 

C.

[httpmom]

, I still want one for my everyday hand.

This is a modern Chinese pen. The clip has some attributes of a "Duke", but it is not a Duke. The Duke is a relatively high quality pen. The nib is a generic Chinese nib and looks bent. There are Chinese calligraphy nibs that curve upwards, but this is not one of them. The interesting thing about the nib is that it does not say "Germany" on it. The Chinese pen manufacturers try to suggest that their nibs are made in Germany, by referring to the "iridium" tip. I imagine this is a fairly heavy pen. It looks like lacquer on a brass tube construction. Swan's are fairly light, being made mostly of hard runner or celluloid plastics. I suggest taking these pics to the Asian pen section and asking around to get a positive ID on what it is, unless all you wanted was confirmation that it was not a Swan.

My goodness you are good! Even down to the fact that it's a 'Noblest Zhenjue 930 pen'! What a crack up...I can't ever imagine myself purposely purchasing a pen made it China...No wonder the nib is broken.. .ha. I am just pleased I didn't pay more for it. Got lucky this time, but from now on I will exercise due diligence and be prepared with the facts I now know regarding Swan pens.

 

It gets better...I just looked it up online and the thing sells for $10.

 

BTW, I still want a flexible nib for my everyday hand. Do you think I am correct in looking for a vintage pen? Long story short...I took up Spencerian Business Script to improve my penmanship.

Edited March 21, 2015 by httpmom

[Cob]

I think it's a very good idea looking for an old pen: as with everything else, generally one gets what one pays for, but with a modicum of luck you'll get something that even if it were possible to find new, would cost a great deal more.

 

Given your experience with the Chinese job, I expect you'll be doing some research or asking here - there are plenty of experts happy to advise.

 

Best of luck

 

Cob

[Scrawler]

My goodness you are good! Even down to the fact that it's a 'Noblest Zhenjue 930 pen'! What a crack up...I can't ever imagine myself purposely purchasing a pen made it China...No wonder the nib is broken.. .ha. I am just pleased I didn't pay more for it. Got lucky this time, but from now on I will exercise due diligence and be prepared with the facts I now know regarding Swan pens.

 

It gets better...I just looked it up online and the thing sells for $10.

 

BTW, I still want a flexible nib for my everyday hand. Do you think I am correct in looking for a vintage pen? Long story short...I took up Spencerian Business Script to improve my penmanship.

We are what you might call experts LOL. Next time you will know where to come first to ask. The problem with looking for flex nibs is that you need to know which makers have a higher probability of providing one. You also need to know there are no guarantees, because flex is the result of several specialized skills. First there is the gold alloy, then there is the shape of the nib, and the craftsman's skill in tempering it. At different times and different places there were fashions and trends. The US was a more utilitarian country in the 20th century than some others. They needed carbon paper and pens that would press through, earlier than others. Canada was a backwater of the British empire and the people spent long winter months journalling and corresponding. The fashion for old fashioned flourished script lasted longer there, than Britain, or the US. The skills available were affected by war, and returning soldiers needing work. Swan in Britain up to about 1930 were producing nibs for people who wanted an older style of writing, and are known for their nibs. Waterman and Parker had factories in the US, Canada and Britain and are known for having produced some really fine nibs too. You can either buy a whole bunch from one of those countries, from the periods they were known to have skilled nib makers of the type you are looking for, or you can go to a person who buys them, weeds out the good and sells them. If you do this, you will pay a lot, but get a good pen that does what you want. Or you can do what I did, and that was to collect samples of each period, fix them up and try them. If you are game to do that, then I can identify certain pens that give you a higher probability of being a good flex nib. So these are what I would look for to increase your probability of finding what you want: a) Canadian made Parker Televisor 1937-1939 b ) Any Canadian made 1930s Waterman #3 c) Any non-stub Swan from 1917 - 1930 d) 1930s-1946 Canadian Waterman with a #2 (not a 2A) nib has a higher probability of being a semi-flex. e) Any Waterman #7 Pink. f) 1920s Waterman 52. g) German pens (even school pens) of the 1950s. German nibs tend to be springy, but some do flex nicely.

 

Remember there are no guarantees, just an increased probability. Look for pens with long slender tines, and shoulders at or below the breather hole.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Scrawler

[Cob]

That's a nice summary Scrawler and very helpful to the OP I should say.

 

Of course there's always the exception: I had a New York Swan 242/52 - stunning in lapis blue: it had a lovely looking nib that was sadly a great disappointment. However, you are absolutely right on the balance of probabilities - of course he must avoid the Swan Eternals!

 

Best to avoid Conway Stewart too, most of their nibs were if not nails, very much on the firm side. As you say, Canadian Waterman's pens are a good bet. Some of the English Mentmores had lovely flexible nibs, but again one is taking a chance.

 

If he chooses to buy on eBay, then he should be sure that there is writing sample in the listing; at least then he will have an idea of what he is likely to get.

 

Cob

[Scrawler]

That's a nice summary Scrawler and very helpful to the OP I should say.

 

Of course there's always the exception: I had a New York Swan 242/52 - stunning in lapis blue: it had a lovely looking nib that was sadly a great disappointment. However, you are absolutely right on the balance of probabilities - of course he must avoid the Swan Eternals!

 

Best to avoid Conway Stewart too, most of their nibs were if not nails, very much on the firm side. As you say, Canadian Waterman's pens are a good bet. Some of the English Mentmores had lovely flexible nibs, but again one is taking a chance.

 

If he chooses to buy on eBay, then he should be sure that there is writing sample in the listing; at least then he will have an idea of what he is likely to get.

 

Cob

I have never tried a Mentmore. I have heard of them, but never seen one in person. Conway Stewart made nice looking pens, and were the top of the status pecking order when I was at school. They work well, but I have never seen one with a flex nib. A pleasant little spring is all. I still have my sister's CS school pen, a little black model 80 I think it is. The other one to avoid is Scheaffer. Even my 1928 jade radite flat top is a nail.

[Cob]

I have had about four Mentmores: two very flexible and two nails - I still have one of the nails. Yes, Sheaffer is famous for nails and all the Conway Stewarts I have come across, with one exception - a 1930 model with a lovely broad stub nib - have been profoundly boring. In fact I do wonder why CS has such a following; yes the nibs are often smooth, and some of the pens are quite pretty, but mostly they were just mid-market lever-fillers. My own preferences are Mabie Todd of course, Onoto, and I have a soft spot for Croxleys, which were very good quality although I have had examples with shrunken caps. Their nibs are usually nice, normally semi-flexible but your do occasionally find a gem amongst them. I have had some very nice Waterman's pens, but they have never quite caught my imagination in the way that the Mabie Todds do!

 

Rgds

 

Cob

[Scrawler]

I have one Onoto, which I think dates to 1907 or there about, with a flex stub nib. The pen itself is not working. It is a vacuum filler and needs a new seal. The original cork disk dried out years ago. I hope to get it fixed up one day. I have used it a little by dipping it. I have been waiting for over a year to get my Mabie-Todd twist filler returned by the man who is repairing it. He did mislay it for a substantial amount of time. I just cannot drive to the city, to go to pen club meetings to urge him on, at the moment. I also have a Blackbird, which I picked up in a flea market for just C$10. It needs resaccing sometime. It has a chip out of the cap, but that will not affect its function. I have always liked Waterman. I was going to sell my #7 Pink because I really do not have the skill to use it properly, but my daughter tells me she wants to inherit it.

[Cob]

The Onoto has a rubber seal - a cup seal, plus two small corks at the filler knob end; I have today just rebuilt two of them!

 

Parts are available from Custom Pen Parts. One really needs the correct tools to make a good job of it but people have got away with it without these.

 

Cob

[Scrawler]

The Onoto has a rubber seal - a cup seal, plus two small corks at the filler knob end; I have today just rebuilt two of them!

 

Parts are available from Custom Pen Parts. One really needs the correct tools to make a good job of it but people have got away with it without these.

 

Cob

I plan to wait until I can have it done by an expert with the correct tools and knowledge.

[httpmom]

I am sure you must be mistaken about the upload feature. There's a row of headings starting with FPN Home, followed by Forums, Support FPN, Blogs, UPLOAD, Gallery and so on.

 

One more thing: on the barrel (if it is an English Swan) it should have an imprint that looks a bit like this:

 

 

Or this:

 

 

Cob

I found out. The upload feature is disabled until I have permission, which I assume happens when I am no longer a Newbie. Can't post an avatar picture yet either.

[httpmom]

BTW I will be attending the San Francisco Pen Show in August. Apparently you can actually test drive (write) with the pens for sale, including vintage pens. Hopefully, I can find good flex pen at this event. As we say...as good as it gets.

[Wet-Noodle]

Hi httpmom,

 

I'm reasonably new to this too and, like you, was lucky enough to find this forum. Without knowing it I had bought one of Cob's Mabie Todd Swan 100/60 pens, it had arrived here in Paris and was such a pleasure that I had to tell someone. I landed on The Fountain Pen Network and who should I tell but Cob! Ha ha. I then purchased a great Swan 2.S.F. And lo! Who from but Effin10, another Forum contributor.

 

All I can say is that you are surrounded by kindly, interested and very helpful experts here - that over used word, but they are indeed expert and like me (not an expert) all mad about early Mabie Todd Swan pens, and in particular the quite often glorious early nibs. I was very lucky with my early buys, they are what I'd hoped for (very nicely flexible), You are on the right track httpmom, an early Mabie Todd is a very good start, and I can tell you, as my friends here will, that even a smallish pen (100/60) with a small #1 nib can, once posted, seem absolutely right in a large hand. And if you are lucky a #1 or #2 Mabie Todd nib can spread its gold tines and fly, producing the most beautiful flex pen results. You should keep an eye on eBay.UK as well as eBay.com, there are often good relatively inexpensive but terrific Mabie Todd finds, and you will get lucky. So stick with it and make yourself at home here on one of the Mabie Todd threads. We all want you to succeed! And we'll want to see the results too, talk ink and paper, nibs and feeds, sections and ink sacs.

Welcome and enjoy!

 

Wet-Noodle

[sexauerw]

I would like to know more about the one and only Mabie-Todd Swan in my collection. It does not seem to have a model number at all. The closest thing I can find is the word "Stenograph" printed around the barrel end. It has two notable features, a wonderful wet noodle nib and a severe crack through the barrel threads. Also, there is a little metal bit with a broken end on top of the base of the nib. I don't think it was an overfeed as it is placed concave side up. I'm guessing that it is just a shim that someone put there to keep the nib in place. In any event, with that crack there I'm not going to mess around with anything! It's too nice a writer to take a chance on breaking it.

 

It's hard to photograph writing on shiny clips, the text is: "PATENT JAN 19 1915"

See the third photo for the body text. That came out OK.

That little shim mentioned above obscures the W Y of NEW YORK on the nib, but I think everything else, such as there is, is readable. Nothing at all to indicate either nib size or metal content.

 

Just after I posted this I noticed a marking on the end of the barrel. Someone had scratched the initials HED, badly, twice, on the end. But between the two was an imprint that read "45". Does anyone know what that means?

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/T5TYAjjMYYGMMT/10144847.0/800/p/MT01_Swan%2C_Closed.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/3Y3YA4kTA1MzTO/10144856.0/800/p/MT01_Mabie_Todd_Swan_Self-filling_Pen%2C_unposted.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/411ONOMMGTTzIz/10144843.0/800/p/MT01_Swan_Body_Markings.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/mLMj11ND4DjYYM/10144846.0/800/p/MT01_Swan_Nib.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/mLMj11ND4DjYYM/10144844.0/800/p/MT01_Swan_Crack_in_Barrel_Threads_1.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/z0ZjTMzzDzjDUD/10144845.0/800/p/MT01_Swan_Crack_in_Barrel_Threads_2.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/AzZ0ZOD0,UQNzN/10144854.0/800/p/MT01_Writing_Sample.jpg

Edited March 23, 2015 by BillLS

[Scrawler]

I would like to know more about the one and only Mabie-Todd Swan in my collection. <snip> But between the two was an imprint that read "45". Does anyone know what that means?

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/T5TYAjjMYYGMMT/10144847.0/800/p/MT01_Swan%2C_Closed.jpg

 

http://bulk-share.slickpic.com/album/share/3Y3YA4kTA1MzTO/10144856.0/800/p/MT01_Mabie_Todd_Swan_Self-filling_Pen%2C_unposted.jpg

 

 

 

 

This looks like a 100/60, but has significant differences to the one in my hand that I am comparing it with. A few years ago we did an exercise here on FPN trying to make sense of the numbering system. Several of us compared pens and old docs and came up with some charts of MT pen types.

 

The clip on your pen looks to be an earlier design than the 100/60 I am looking at. You cap does not have a gold ring, and the lever is a different shape. The step at the front of the section also seems to be a is a little larger. It could be that yours was made in the US as a result of WWI. The factory was moved in about 1917.

 

That metal insert does not look like part of an overfeed, I think the pen is too late to have had one. It is a great shame about the crack.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Scrawler

[Cob]

What an interesting and handsome pen!

 

The nib looks to be a No 2 given its heart-shaped breather. The fact that "Stenograph" is engraved (or stamped) on the barrel suggests that in NY around the mid-twenties, MT was offering a pen for shorthand purposes - rather like the Pitman's College pens here in England. The Pitmans Pens often had very flexible nibs believed to be helpful for writing shorthand characters - I have two and indeed they are very flexible.

 

The barrel shape is identical to that of numerous models produced both in the US and England and which was used certainly in England until the early 1930s on Swan Minors.

 

The clip is another topic: the "1915" clip like yours looks superficially identical to the similar step clips that were stamped Swan or Blackbird, but is in fact different in that the part that inserts into the cap is longer. I do not know if use of these clips overlapped: I had a Swan Minor 2 that had a 1915 clip and equally have had other Swans earlier than the SM2 that had Swan clips!

 

The number 45 I cannot connect to a black Swan: in later years 45 signified grey marble.

 

So no positive ID from me I'm afraid, but thanks so much for showing us this fascinating pen.

 

Cob

[httpmom]

Hi httpmom,

 

I'm reasonably new to this too and, like you, was lucky enough to find this forum. Without knowing it I had bought one of Cob's Mabie Todd Swan 100/60 pens, it had arrived here in Paris and was such a pleasure that I had to tell someone. I landed on The Fountain Pen Network and who should I tell but Cob! Ha ha. I then purchased a great Swan 2.S.F. And lo! Who from but Effin10, another Forum contributor.

 

All I can say is that you are surrounded by kindly, interested and very helpful experts here - that over used word, but they are indeed expert and like me (not an expert) all mad about early Mabie Todd Swan pens, and in particular the quite often glorious early nibs. I was very lucky with my early buys, they are what I'd hoped for (very nicely flexible), You are on the right track httpmom, an early Mabie Todd is a very good start, and I can tell you, as my friends here will, that even a smallish pen (100/60) with a small #1 nib can, once posted, seem absolutely right in a large hand. And if you are lucky a #1 or #2 Mabie Todd nib can spread its gold tines and fly, producing the most beautiful flex pen results. You should keep an eye on eBay.UK as well as eBay.com, there are often good relatively inexpensive but terrific Mabie Todd finds, and you will get lucky. So stick with it and make yourself at home here on one of the Mabie Todd threads. We all want you to succeed! And we'll want to see the results too, talk ink and paper, nibs and feeds, sections and ink sacs.

Welcome and enjoy!

 

Wet-Noodle

Wet-Noodle,

Thank you so much for this encouraging note and more information. I will be test driving a few Mabie Todd pens at The San Francisco Pen show in August in hopes of finding a good match. I am learning Spencerian Script with a dip pen and I need the fountain pen for Spencerian Business Hand. It's nevr too late to pick up a new skill.

Edited March 23, 2015 by httpmom

[Wet-Noodle]

Wet-Noodle,

Thank you so much for this encouraging note and more information. I will be test driving a few Mabie Todd pens at The San Francisco Pen show in August in hopes of finding a good match. I am learning Spencerian Script with a dip pen and I need the fountain pen for Spencerian Business Hand. It's nevr too late to pick up a new skill.

You are more than welcome httpmom. Just look at Cob's reply before yours, there's the help you need!

 

Go for it at the SF Pen Show, I'd love to go myself, (my brother was one time fire captain down the coast at Big Sur, and yes he was there for "The Big One" all his engine's crew were British!)

 

Have a lot of very rewarding fun and keep us and your Mabie Todds posted.

[Greenie]

I was just looking at my personal catalog for which pens have the best flexy nibs. I have a broad array of pre 1040s Parker, Sheaffer, Wahl/Eversharp, Waterman, and Swans. I also collect interesting filling mechanisms on old BCHR pens.

 

A lot of Swans make the list of best flex nibs. But also, a lot of my old hard rubber no names, second tier, and just plain interesting pens make the list as well.

 

So, go to the pen show and try anything very old and black hard rubber. You just might get a great writer out of a less collected and less expensive pen.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Greenie