Swan Mabie Todd Question

[Azuniga]

I had the camera just there and have not seen it...!!

Ok... In the last cart E. Bitterman posted here it says 60 = BHR and 61 = Woodgrain Hard Rubber... which is different than what Malcy wrote...

Mine is BHR althought I thought it was celluloid, some images..

Again I hope this helps... or make it more messy...

 

Just to clarify, what I wrote about 60 and 61 applies only to the post war four numeral model designation last two numerals.

 

You are right...

 

By the way, the two catalogues mentioned by E. Bitterman (1927 & 1932) are very helpful too,

Regards...

[sumgaikid]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

 

I've seen SM and L on some Swan pens,but I've never seen SF on any Swan

pen. Any pictorial evidence to back that up and prove me wrong?

 

I suppose that there could have been a carryover of the Swan Minor name

even unto the late 30's/early 40's,but if there was a Minor wouldn't there be

a Major? Or was it assumed that the less luxury models would be named as

Minor models,while the luxurious models would be known as luxurious models?

 

 

 

John

 

I'm not really bothered about proving you right or wrong.

 

Just for information purposes, here is a picture. Scroll down to the second bottom image.

 

Swan SF2

 

Malcy--my statement was rhetorical;no anger on my part. I really was interested to see

an SF pic--hadn't seen one before. Any other pics of SF's labeled as such on pens later

than the 1910's or 1920's?

 

Perhaps the problem that is occurring is when Swan/Mabie Todd made their labeling

changes--there seems to be no documented rhyme or reason.

 

 

John

 

[sumgaikid]

Many Blackbird model designations start BB, could it be poorly imprinted?

 

Here is a couple more model designations:

 

Swan Visofil models use V and VT (Visofil Topfiller?) but Blackbird equivalents use BT (Blackbird Topfiller) e.g. BT200/60.

 

And another colour:

 

82 = blue/gold/brown spirals

 

I saw that same color pattern listed on writetime(.co.uk) a couple of years back. I could be

wrong,but I thought they mentioned that the one they had was(or the color pattern was) a

prototype.

 

 

John

[Malcy]

SM stands for Swan Minor

SF stands for Self Filler

L stands for Leverless

 

I've seen SM and L on some Swan pens,but I've never seen SF on any Swan

pen. Any pictorial evidence to back that up and prove me wrong?

 

I suppose that there could have been a carryover of the Swan Minor name

even unto the late 30's/early 40's,but if there was a Minor wouldn't there be

a Major? Or was it assumed that the less luxury models would be named as

Minor models,while the luxurious models would be known as luxurious models?

 

 

 

John

 

Malcy--my statement was rhetorical;no anger on my part. I really was interested to see

an SF pic--hadn't seen one before. Any other pics of SF's labeled as such on pens later

than the 1910's or 1920's?

 

Perhaps the problem that is occurring is when Swan/Mabie Todd made their labeling

changes--there seems to be no documented rhyme or reason.

 

 

John

 

 

No problem.

 

 

Many Blackbird model designations start BB, could it be poorly imprinted?

 

Here is a couple more model designations:

 

Swan Visofil models use V and VT (Visofil Topfiller?) but Blackbird equivalents use BT (Blackbird Topfiller) e.g. BT200/60.

 

And another colour:

 

82 = blue/gold/brown spirals

 

I saw that same color pattern listed on writetime(.co.uk) a couple of years back. I could be

wrong,but I thought they mentioned that the one they had was(or the color pattern was) a

prototype.

 

 

John

 

I have seen this colour in two places now so I don't think that it is a one of. I also noted that 81 is a similar spiral pattern but in a golden/brown colour.

 

See here

[Scrawler]

Hey guys, we have a new member with a 265/?? here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/204456-hi/page__view__findpost__p__2105034

 

Anyone want to try and fully identify it?

[Ernst Bitterman]

Hey guys, we have a new member with a 265/?? here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/204456-hi/page__view__findpost__p__2105034

 

Anyone want to try and fully identify it?

 

Looking back to my catalogue scan, I'd hazard 265/19.

[Azuniga]

+ 1

[Malcy]

More colours:

 

64 Brown Amber

 

67 Amethyst & Gold

 

76 Green & Silver (Green hatch)

 

77 Ruby & Silver (Ruby hatch)

 

78 Black & Silver (Grey hatch)

 

Also 66 green swirl is called Emerald and 59 is called Italian Marble

 

[Happy Harry]

As far as post war 4 digit numbers go, using the above mentioned 3230 as example

3= model 2=nib size 3=color 0= material

Colors 2=blue 3=grey 4=green 5= brown 6=black

Materials 0=plastic 1=BHR 2= ? suspect may be casein , only seen on black pens by me .

 

The metal threads are earlier models.

 

This applies to models starting with 2,3,4,5 and 6. The 2s and 5s not often seen. 2 (iirc) and 4 are leverless while 3,5 and 6 are levers

 

Variations.1. Marbled pens in the 6 series, the material number=5 2.Some 3 models have the third digit = 7 and run 3170,3171 and so on. These are smaller cheaper models from near the end best avoided where the 4th digit equates to color.

 

So a 3361 has a no3 nib, it's black and made of rubber.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Happy Harry

[Ernst Bitterman]

I have reworked the post-war chart with an assumption that the final pair of digits indicates the colour/pattern. I finally gave into this assumption because if the third digit alone means that and the fourth means something else, we're faced with a complete lack of pattern in the numbering of colours, far more colours than numbers AND a set of nine variables known to appear with unknown meaning. Quantum physicists may dabble in that degree of uncertainty-- I'd rather hammer something certain into shape and accept the possibility of future correction. Just to save a run back through the thread, here's the link again.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Ernst Bitterman

[Malcy]

It's looking good and seems to tie in with what I see in pens in the wild. I have a bit more information about pre-war UK Swan model numbers / designations.

 

Pre-war pens with size 1 nibs are quite common here in the UK and come as model SM1 or Swan Minor 1. There is also an SM2 with the size 2 nib.

 

The Visofil pens seem to more or less follow the code. For example my black Mk1 Visofil is a V211/60. Model prefix is V, 1st digit = 2 - size 2 nib, 2nd digit = 1 - broad cap band, 3rd digit = 1 - ?, colour = 60 - black. The MK2 Visofil has the prefix VT e.g. VT340/76 - size 3 nib, 4 - multiple cap bands?, 0 - ?, colour 76 - Green hatch.

 

Blackbirds largely have the prefix BB but can have GG on some models. Blackbird Topfil pens (Similar mech to the Mk2 Visofil but cheaper) have a BT prefix.Another Blackbird colour is grey/pearl marble = 45.

 

There is a range of leverless swans numbered 0160, 1060 and 2060 which are guess what - black!

 

I am sure that there is much yet to unravel. Keep at it, you are doing a good job.

[Ernst Bitterman]

There is a range of leverless swans numbered 0160, 1060 and 2060 which are guess what - black!

 

I've made another little update, but I begin to despair. The suggestion in these numbers is that the first has tiny #1 point, and (assuming a similar approach that Waterman had used in their early days) the other two have vast #10 points which MAY have conveyed a digit to the initial position. This leaves open the significance of the initial 0, 1, and 2 (unless I'm right about the "carry the tens", in which case we may ignore 2 for the moment).

 

There are two solutions to this seemingly perpetual conundrum. Everyone send all Swan pens to me immediately for careful inspection, description, and concealment under my bed "because they were lost in the mail and never arrived here", OR we all swear to destroy all Swan pens we find and burn all reference materials immediately. I never said they were reasonable solutions, of course.

[Malcy]

Well, just to add to the confusion:

 

The 0160 has a No2 nib, the 1060 has a No4 nib and the 2060 has a No6 nib. They all have the same body style (perhaps different sizes) and the pre-war leverless system:

 

 

This is an 0160.

[Happy Harry]

I thought I had figured out at least the postwar model numbers, based on a few FPN posts I read including this one:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/156936-lever-filling-mabie-todd-swan-3230/page__view__findpost__p__1577074

 

In that system, '3' or '4' is the style (lever or leverless); 1-6 is the nib size; 2-6 is the color; and the last digit, usually 0 or 1, indicates a variation. Presumably. In my actual experience things are a bit less predictable; I have a 3261 that's a bigger pen than either 3360 I have. The 3261 has brass cap threads, but I've seen a number of 3xx0 pens on eBay that also have brass cap threads. Some of the pens from that era have the long lollipop lever with the round end, and some have shorter stick levers.

 

This 3230 on Deborah's blog has brass threads:

 

https://goodwriterspens.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/the-mabie-todd-swan-3230/

 

The '3' in the third position was gray for a while, but apparently they realized it was a bad color; later xx3x pens were sort of mid-blue. (I also have a 4220 that's a very dark blue, looks black in dim light and almost purple in sunlight).

 

Just to muddy the waters some more. Heh.

 

Those with a brass thread are earlier models, my experience indicates this numbering to be fairly consistent across the models starting with 3,4,5 (a bandless lever fill model which appears to have turned into a second line Blackbird model, uncommon) and 6. Variations exist, like marbled 6 series pens (ie 6245) which may well be near the end models, metal caped 3 series pens, I've seen ones ending in a 2 (ie 3262 iirc ,casein maybe ?). Who knows what else is out there to confuse us even more!!

[eckiethump]

Stephen Hull's articles s in the Writing Equipment Journal issues 39 and 41 covers this subject fairly comprehensively, SH is widely regarded as the most knowledgeable and researched expert on the Swan brand of pens. The only person I know of who is attempting to collect all the known colours ? he may have them now, he told me about this a few years ago.

Eric

[MikeW]

Stephen Hull's articles s in the Writing Equipment Journal issues 39 and 41 covers this subject fairly comprehensively, SH is widely regarded as the most knowledgeable and researched expert on the Swan brand of pens. The only person I know of who is attempting to collect all the known colours ? he may have them now, he told me about this a few years ago.

Eric

 

Eric

I had mentioned these articles earlier in this post, although not by specific issue number. I had asked Steve this very question and he referred me to the articles. Fortunately, I was able to buy copies of these WES Journals. Despite this, it is still nigh impossible to discern any rhyme or reason for their system as a whole, much like Conway Stewart's non-existent system!

 

Mike

 

P.S. I would highly recommend that any serious Swan collector get copies of these WES Journals, which can be done directly from the WES

[simp]

I saw this thread just now.

 

Here an ads with some codes for colors and their "official" names:

 

http://www.fountainpen.it/File:192x-Swan-2x2-Models.jpg

 

Anyone has similar ads with names for colors?

 

Simone

[MikeForester]

I saw this thread just now.

 

Here an ads with some codes for colors and their "official" names:

 

http://www.fountainpen.it/File:192x-Swan-2x2-Models.jpg

 

Anyone has similar ads with names for colors?

 

Simone

 

Thanks very much for that. There was just a 242/53 for sale on eBay. I didn't win.

 

-Mike

[Malcy]

I saw this thread just now.

 

Here an ads with some codes for colors and their "official" names:

 

http://www.fountainpen.it/File:192x-Swan-2x2-Models.jpg

 

Anyone has similar ads with names for colors?

 

Simone

 

I have cross referenced this ad with the table that we assembled and they do not match. However these are 1920s pens and our table is 1930s pens (and post war). I guess as multicoloured plastics became available, they revamped the colour coding.

 

Thanks this is very useful.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Malcy

[MikeForester]

 

I have cross referenced this ad with the table that we assembled and they do not match. However these are 1920s pens and our table is 1930s pens (and post war). I guess as multicoloured plastics became available, they revamped the colour coding.

 

Thanks this is very useful.

 

I have a No. 52 and a No. 43, both from the early 20s; and I have some pages from the 1921 Mabie Todd catalog that I found online somewhere (very low-res scans). From firsthand knowledge I can say that the '4' series pens were full-size, 5 3/8", while the '5' series were short, 4 3/8". (Clip or ringtop optional.) Interestingly, the caps are the same size and interchangeable. There was also a '7' series, which were short like the 5s but slim. In these pens, all BCHR, the nib size was indicated by the second digit.

 

Then I also have a 142/50 from the late 20's. This pen is exactly the same size and shape as the No. 43, only it's in jade (/50). According to the seller, it had a No. 2 New York nib when he got it (which was damaged, sadly).

 

This leads me to guess, tentatively, that the later 20s pens used the same numbering scheme as the early 20s -- e.g., my 142/50 is the same size as the 242/53 shown in the ad, and both had No. 2 nibs -- thus both are based on the earlier No. 42 model. If this is true then presumably the prefixes '1' and '2' denote something about the decoration. The 142/50 has two gold cap bands, top and bottom, outlined in black; the 242 series appear to have different combinations of black and gold.

 

As for the 292 and 223 models, your guess is as good as mine.

Edited April 23, 2012 by MikeForester