Ethics of Re-plating Pen Furniture

[Guest PeteWK]

What do you think?

[Roger W.]

Pete;

 

I always love "if information follows pen". Nothing attaches to the pen so that is really pretty optimistic (so far pretty on the poll are so inclined to be optimist). Even if the first person remembers to disclose there is nothing to say guy #2 would remember. I'm not even suggesting fraud at all. Then there is fraud, for instance, a great color jade flattop will sell for more if the clip is not brassed than if it is. So there is certainly motive to commit fraud. This is often where it is safer to buy a pen on Ebay from folks that say I don't know anything about pens because is less likely to have been messed with.

 

So I don't have an answer for those that will insist on doctoring up there pens, so buyer beware.

 

Roger W.

[Guest PeteWK]

I voted for the Unethical on my own poll. A tough question in a hobby where swapping any "correct" part that didn't come with the pen is OK. There's no such thing as a number's matching pen.

 

This is certainly a gray area, though, isn't it. Most collectors have no problem buffing out scratches to make the pen appear as though its less warn that it actually is. But those clips, well. . .

 

I'm guessing that time will be the real answer to this question. In 100 years when our great grandchildren come into possession of our pens, they'll have lost the concern we have and just want the pens to look bone stock perfect.

 

PeteWK

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

The plating does protect the underlying brass from corrosion and exposure to the elements. Mostly that is... That is why I get things replated.

 

Dillon

[jaytaylor]

I find it most rewarding restoring a pen back to its former glory and enjoying the pen as the original purchaser did some 50-100 years ago.

 

Theres something special about it.........

[Kelly G]

This is a bit of a tough one for me; I voted the "sure why not..." button because I don't have a problem with someone doing what they want with their pens.

I agree with Roger W. that the "as long as the information follows" choice is really no choice at all, given that is impractical to achieve with any degree of success.

If I'm in possession of a scarce or highly desirable pen (however that can be defined) or a pen that is otherwise appearing not-inked or considered by some pen folks to be collectable - then I would not choose to replate or even buff out any serious surface scratching - IF I planned to sell it now or in the future.

If I plan on keeping the pen in my accumulation, which means I will be using it at some interval - I may choose to replate if the brassing is significant.

I know this is all subject to personal taste and opinions are everywhere - but I like my pens to look good and represent themselves as the pens they once were. I suppose I would follow advice that David I espouses on NOS or Stickered un-inked pens - If I don't want to keep the pen in the un-inked condition - sell it to someone who does and buy a similar pen that has been inked - and probably take some profit in the process.

That's a little more than $0.02 worth, but that's my opinion at the present time.

 

Kelly

[Nihontochicken]

Sure, okay, why not? To the degree of your sophistication, either you can tell it's replated, or you can't. If you can tell, great, no harm, no foul. If you can't tell, no prob! If you can't tell when you buy it, but can tell later when your expertise increases, well, education ain't cheap!

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

Most of the time, if DK does it, then you won't know unless you are told.

 

Dillon

[penmanila]

if it's done professionally, why not? they restored the sistine chapel, didn't they? (and much the better it is--speaking as the husband of a professionial art restorer/conservator).

[Rabbi Zvi Solomons]

I'm happy with the replating thing - after all, it's the way it was originally isn't it? And if we could we'd all restore a pen to the original "new out of the box" quality wouldn't we. THat's why Mint in box pens fetch such a premium - because over the years they become rarer. So as long as you're not doing anything to the pen which wasn't done before when it was made it's all fine.

If anyone is really bothered about receiving the pen in pristine condition then they should ASK before buying. After all if that's so important to them then they should make sure the vendor volunteers the information.

And yes it should be professionally done. After all, gold-plating is not an easy task to perform.

 

Regards

Rabbi Zvi.

[Roger W.]

Rabbi;

 

Technically, gold plating and replating rolled gold are not the same. The original material on vintage pens was not plated. I don't think as a hobby, from the collector's view, we have a consensus of replating being proper restoration. When it is done well it does look great but, does it tell lies as to what the true condition of the pen is?

 

As I said at the start of this thread, information does not attach to the pen and the first buyer may remember having it replated and pass this along. Buyer 2 never had it replated so may not remember that it arrived in their hands so processed and not tell the next buyer. So "as long as the information follows" is just nieve beyond belief but, that is what most folks voted for. It can be deceptive. I've seen excellent pieces that their only fault was clip wear from rolling around. It makes a difference to the value.

 

Roger W.

[Guest PeteWK]

Rabbi;

 

Technically, gold plating and replating rolled gold are not the same. The original material on vintage pens was not plated. I don't think as a hobby, from the collector's view, we have a consensus of replating being proper restoration. When it is done well it does look great but, does it tell lies as to what the true condition of the pen is?

 

As I said at the start of this thread, information does not attach to the pen and the first buyer may remember having it replated and pass this along. Buyer 2 never had it replated so may not remember that it arrived in their hands so processed and not tell the next buyer. So "as long as the information follows" is just nieve beyond belief but, that is what most folks voted for. It can be deceptive. I've seen excellent pieces that their only fault was clip wear from rolling around. It makes a difference to the value.

 

Roger W.

I probably should have included a category or two in between, ah well. Maybe all of this is why I prefer solid gold. Hard to fake that.

 

PeteWK

[jirish1957]

I'd replate... First, if it's worn enough to warrent replating, the rest of the pen will also be worn enough that the person looking for the perfect NOS example will pass it by anyway. Typically, replating is expensive enough that it isn't justified from an economic standpoint. You're better off trying to find a pen or cap in better condition. The pens you'd replate are the ones that have a personal significance- wonderful writer, family heirloom, etc.

Edited December 27, 2006 by jirish1957

[whv]

"Maybe all of this is why I prefer solid gold. Hard to fake that."

.

exactly

Edited December 27, 2006 by whv

[Titivillus]

What do you think?

My thought would be how different is this from someone who creates a pen out of spare parts or replaces a piece from another pen. Should that be considered original if all of the pieces are original? And what if by changing a piece it becomes an elusive pen should the repair person or owner admit that it is not a true original and if there is no way to tell the difference is there one?

 

 

K

Edited January 8, 2007 by Tytyvyllus

[Roger W.]

K;

 

Easy, since pens were mass manufactured there is absolutely nothing wrong with using identical original parts. It makes a pen no more or no less than it was originally. I would further state that no disclosure of such replacement should be made as nothing has been modified from the original aspect of the pen's manufacture.

 

Roger W.

[Titivillus]

K;

 

Easy, since pens were mass manufactured there is absolutely nothing wrong with using identical original parts. It makes a pen no more or no less than it was originally. I would further state that no disclosure of such replacement should be made as nothing has been modified from the original aspect of the pen's manufacture.

 

Roger W.

But that 'pen' hasn't survived down to us as an intact entity. It isn't NOS, mint or original! but it could be sold as any of those 3.

 

 

Why should a pen that has been put together from other parts of pens that were damaged or a stock of spare parts have the same value as one that survived?

 

 

I don't agree that they should have the same value.

 

 

K

[Roger W.]

K;

 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. You are using a load of terms fast and loose but, then so does the hobby. Maybe you have a good barrel that needs a cap - not a big deal to match it up to one. Much more importantly, caps and barrels have been mated up for decades so there is about no way to know if they are right or as factory anyway. Take Sheaffer flattops with white dots. Never should they have two dots on the pen (one on the cap and then another on the barrel). The barrel marked pen would have only been on the ring top. No one can say for certain, though, that it didn't even leave the factory that way and caps and barrels are exactly interchangeable. Same thing with open nibbed white dot snorkels. That configuration should never happen but are found often, the white dot was intended to be a triumph nib.

 

So, basically, the pool is tainted already. These pens were mass produced but you are asking us to look on them as individual pieces of art which they are not. This isn't even a corvette where the engine and the car have to have matching serial numbers. If your pen had broke originally and you sent it back they would use a like piece for the repair (and we'd never know this had been done either unless the pen lanquished after it got back with the repair receipt). Because a pen is "intact" as it was originally or if it was repaired using proper original parts it doesn't matter, the information for the collector is the same.

 

Roger W.

[Titivillus]

K;

 

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. You are using a load of terms fast and loose but, then so does the hobby. Maybe you have a good barrel that needs a cap - not a big deal to match it up to one. Much more importantly, caps and barrels have been mated up for decades so there is about no way to know if they are right or as factory anyway. Take Sheaffer flattops with white dots. Never should they have two dots on the pen (one on the cap and then another on the barrel). The barrel marked pen would have only been on the ring top. No one can say for certain, though, that it didn't even leave the factory that way and caps and barrels are exactly interchangeable. Same thing with open nibbed white dot snorkels. That configuration should never happen but are found often, the white dot was intended to be a triumph nib.

 

So, basically, the pool is tainted already. These pens were mass produced but you are asking us to look on them as individual pieces of art which they are not. This isn't even a corvette where the engine and the car have to have matching serial numbers. If your pen had broke originally and you sent it back they would use a like piece for the repair (and we'd never know this had been done either unless the pen lanquished after it got back with the repair receipt). Because a pen is "intact" as it was originally or if it was repaired using proper original parts it doesn't matter, the information for the collector is the same.

 

Roger W.

 

And really I was putting this out for discussion as it sort of is a bookend to the replating issue. So it is OK to replace a clip totally with a clip from a damaged pen but not OK to replate the clip that has become worn.

 

Kurt H

 

 

 

I just have a gut feeling that there should be some additional cache in a pen that is original and unchange. But it would be difficult to impossible to determine so it's left to just being a feeling

[Roger W.]

Kurt;

 

But replating rolled gold is not remotely the same as using a clip of the period. Replating can look nice but, plated and rolled gold is not the same stuff. 1921 clip to 1921 clip is the same stuff.

 

Roger W.