Cheap Flexible Nib

[thelioninlove]

Hi there,

 

I'm very new to the realm of fountain pens. Basically, I resolved to get one two days ago after spending an excruciating number of hours on a drawing that shouldn't have taken so long. I'm an amateur cartoonist and I've been using a dip pen, but I find that with broader strokes the pen runs out of ink after barely a line and with finer strokes it clogs. The other problem I've been having is needing to press so hard to get a line out of my pen. My hand still hurts. I've done a tiny bit of reading in the past two days and decided I need a flex nib on whatever I happen to buy because that's what the appeal of these types of pens is for me. I don't need anything pretty, just something cheap like properly cheap. I live in Canada so a local store or a store with reasonable shipping charges would be nice, because I don't know where to buy.

 

Many thanks.

Edited July 1, 2011 by thelioninlove

[Bo Bo Olson]

Flex pen is like saying I want a car with a motor.

What flex?

Semi-flex...somewhat flexible/'flexi', easy full flex (there are nail and semi-flex full flex pens), Wet Noodles*, or Weak Kneed Wet Noodles*?

(*Sort of got to have the hand to use.)

 

How wide do you want to have the tines spread, 3 X...like semi-flex or 'flexi' or 4-5 Times like Full Flex?

 

 

What dip pen nib were you using? That gives us an idea just how flexible you are use to.

 

There is a trick of taking a bit of hot/warm beeswax and forming a feed under your dip pen. You make rills in the wax by pressing something somewhat sharp into the heated wax.

Some one might link you to it.

 

Then what is cheap? $20-70-150?

[thelioninlove]

Flex pen is like saying I want a car with a motor.

What flex?

Semi-flex...somewhat flexible/'flexi', easy full flex (there are nail and semi-flex full flex pens), Wet Noodles*, or Weak Kneed Wet Noodles*?

(*Sort of got to have the hand to use.)

 

How wide do you want to have the tines spread, 3 X...like semi-flex or 'flexi' or 4-5 Times like Full Flex?

 

 

What dip pen nib were you using? That gives us an idea just how flexible you are use to.

 

There is a trick of taking a bit of hot/warm beeswax and forming a feed under your dip pen. You make rills in the wax by pressing something somewhat sharp into the heated wax.

Some one might link you to it.

 

Then what is cheap? $20-70-150?

 

I can't answer the question about how much flex I want because I don't fully grasp the terms to be honest, probably something that flexes a bit or that other people have found is good for drawing with. I've just been using a little Speedball set. Cheap for me would be like $30 and under and probably a fountain pen. Please excuse my ignorance on the nuances of the subject.

Edited July 1, 2011 by thelioninlove

[andybiotic]

Flex pen is like saying I want a car with a motor.

What flex?

Semi-flex...somewhat flexible/'flexi', easy full flex (there are nail and semi-flex full flex pens), Wet Noodles*, or Weak Kneed Wet Noodles*?

(*Sort of got to have the hand to use.)

 

How wide do you want to have the tines spread, 3 X...like semi-flex or 'flexi' or 4-5 Times like Full Flex?

 

 

What dip pen nib were you using? That gives us an idea just how flexible you are use to.

 

There is a trick of taking a bit of hot/warm beeswax and forming a feed under your dip pen. You make rills in the wax by pressing something somewhat sharp into the heated wax.

Some one might link you to it.

 

Then what is cheap? $20-70-150?

 

I can't answer the question about how much flex I want because I don't fully grasp the terms to be honest, probably something that flexes a bit or that other people have found is good for drawing with. I've just been using a little Speedball set. Cheap for me would be like $30 and under and probably a fountain pen. Please excuse my ignorance on the nuances of the subject.

 

 

Thats ok lion, there are a lot of variations on the terminology of flex pens anyway so its ok not getting it from just doing a bit of reading. I think Bobo just wanted to get some idea on what you really need, he is very keen and knowledgeable on anything to do with flex (and oblique nibs too aren't you Bobo?! :roflmho: )

 

To give you a easier to understand idea of the whole flex thing, the flexibility is how easy it is or how much pressure the nib require to spread the tines. A nail being no flex at all, a semi-flex require quite a bit of pressure to make small line variations, then come full flex, superflex and wet noodle being the easiest to flex (some would describe it as soft as a paint brush, hence the term wet noodle!) but it is hard to use as you need very good control of the pen mostly to keep it from flexing when you need a thinner line. The flexibility is all down to the material of the nib. There is no absolute way of classifying which is which. This is all done relatively and objectively, say I have a flex pen, which I believe WAS a wet noodle, than I acquired another one that is even MORE flexible. I then reclassified my earlier one a superflex and the newer on wet noodle! It all depends on the experience the person has with flex pens. A new user of flex pen may thought a pen is a superflex but is only a semi-flex in the eyes on an expert.

 

From I can see from your post, your hands are tired from pressing too hard so I think you would want a pen that is at least full-flex which may be less strain on your hand.

 

Now then there is the line variation... which is related to but not equal to flexibility. How thick of a line the nib can write depends on how far the tines can spread. But it is common sense that a semiflex has lesser line variation than a full flex etc because like I say, they are partially related. That is all down to the design of the nib, a nib that has longer tines, even if it is not very flexible (i.e. not as soft) can write a line as thick as a wet noodle with short tines at the same pressure! e.g. a full-flex may write a line that is as thick as a wet noodle but it requires more pressure in order to do so and/or it has longer tines!

 

Some of the best flex nibs can make a line that is 4mm thick (sometimes more but that is rare)... 2mm thick is already very good.... how thick of a line do you need?

 

Now... how THIN a flex nib can write depends on the tip of the nib just like a normal no flex fountain pen. If the tip is small and sharp, you can use it to draw hairlines (a hairline thickness is usually 0.2mm and less at the tip in the fountain pen world), if the tip is thicker then the thinnest line you can make may be a medium or a broad line again, just like a non-flex pen.

 

The above two criteria makes up the "line variation" of the nib, the bigger the variation, the more expensive... e.g. from a hairline to a 4mm thick line... that is really something special...

 

I believe you want to have good line variation because you want to use it to draw... now there is your problem... a vintage full flex or more nib that has great line variation can be rather expensive (yes, only vintage ones can give you proper flexibility... they don't make true flex nibs anymore or at least the modern one won't give you the flexibility and line variation as a vintage one), and certain won't fit in your $30 budget...

 

So even after ALL of these explanation... I suggest you find a way to get ink feed into your dip pen (like Bobo suggested), or try to fit a dip pen nib into a fountain pen (I am sure there are other recent post on this but it could be troublesome), or get some better reservoir that could hold more ink on you nib. All the best!

Edited July 1, 2011 by andybiotic

[mirosc]

You've already got great replies. I'll just add a bit more.

There are many shades of flex and many have different names for it, which is irritating when trying to buy a pen without seeing any written sample or trying it (my advice: don't buy without written samples)

 

My own scale goes:

nail: stiff, hard, nib doesn't give it to pressure whatsoever

rigid: nib shows a little bit of softness when pressed hard

springy: the tines give with pressure, but they don't open really for line variation, but just allow for smooth writing even with pressure

semiflex: line variation one/one and a half lines when pressed considerably: F to M, or M to B

flex: line variation two to three lines when pressed considerably: F to B, or M to BB

superflex: at least three lines variation with little pressure: F to BB, or M to BBB

noodle: a lot of variation with almost no pressure required (so it's difficult to control): F to BB/BBB - but I never had one, so that's theoretical talking for me. I rather take dip pens and adapt a reservoir.

 

Others can have different personal ideas of flex. But I guess it's good to know, how much variation you want and how much you think you want to control the pen. With a semiflex it's possible for me to write with my regular handwriting, for more flex I have to concentrate much more on the process of writing than on the ideas of the text, tempo slows down significantly.

 

For $30 it's sometimes difficult to find a flex pen in good working condition. Often you have to make concessions in looks or maybe you get an unrestored one. I've never seen superflex or wet knoodles that cheap (but I'm not looking so much for them either)

Edited July 1, 2011 by mirosc

[wisteriax]

Hi Lion,

Noodler's flex pens are under $20 and they're a good beginner's flex pen. You should be able to purchase one online, however as I understand it the dealers who carry them are all sold out at the moment because of the popularity of these pens. The price is definitely right, and they really are great pens for drawing. (no affiliation, just speaking from personal experience - I have several, and I use them for drawing as well as writing)

 

Whatever fountain pen you end up with though - make sure you are using proper fountain pen ink with it. The india inks commonly used for drawing will ruin a fountain pen.

 

There are several types of water resistant fountain pen inks available, in a variety of colors. Or if you are not concerned about water resistance - there's a tremendous variety of inks available that are safe for using in fountain pens.

 

Anyway - you have come to the right place for getting advice on fountain pens and inks!

 

~Karen

[inquisicorp]

I was where you are, Lion, a year or so ago. So! I went to my local vintage pen store and threw myself on their mercies. They got out a bunch of so-called "flex" nib pens and let me try them. Just so I could get the feel (in my fingers and hand) of what everyone was swooning over.

 

Then (naturally!) I wanted one.

 

SO they dug into their parts box and found me a very nice old Waterman's flex nib. They stuck it on an old, utterly beat-up and stained body and I bought the thing. Since all I was interested in was the nib -- as opposed to the aesthetics of the pen as a whole -- I was delighted. Now I have myself a classic old flex nib pen that I can chunk into my sketch kit and play around with.

 

So --> moral of the story --> get thyself to your local vintage pen store!

 

An alternative is to go to the closest Pen Show and haunt the vintage tables for what you need. One possibility for you is this one.

 

Jan

[thelioninlove]

So I've been looking at the Noodler's Creaper (I believe that's the name) and it looks like what I need. Who sells these? About 20 pages of Google searches and everyone is sold out. What kind of flexibility would you call that? A little more flexible would be nice, but I'm not expecting the moon for my budget. I guess I'm just concerned about my hand getting sore if I get something too stiff and I force it too much. As for the suggestion of pen shops, I'm not sure if there really are any used ones in Vancouver. I mean, if I were to go the vintage route, are there specific brands or things to look for?

 

Big newbie question: is there a specific way to load ink into these pens? I see bottles of ink for sale and not cartridges.

 

Thanks again, you guys have been very informative.

Edited July 1, 2011 by thelioninlove

[The Royal Pen]

I think a Noodler's flex pen might be good for you. They're relatively simple to use, and it's a piston filler. Keep in mind that you can only use fountain pen ink, in a fountain pen. Here is where you can get the Noodler's pen http://www.gouletpens.com/Noodlers_Flex_Nib_Pens_s/903.htm or you can get one here, too http://www.peartreepens.com/Noodler-s-Flex-Pens-p/ni-flex.htm, and at both stores you can get ink. I have dealt with the both of them, and Brian at Goulet Pens in the nicest businessman I've ever talked to, and Pear Tree pens care a lot that your package arrives safe and sound. So does Goulet Pens. I am a satisfied customer As of now, they're both out of stock, because they're quite popular.

[thelioninlove]

I think a Noodler's flex pen might be good for you. They're relatively simple to use, and it's a piston filler. Keep in mind that you can only use fountain pen ink, in a fountain pen. Here is where you can get the Noodler's pen http://www.gouletpens.com/Noodlers_Flex_Nib_Pens_s/903.htm or you can get one here, too http://www.peartreepens.com/Noodler-s-Flex-Pens-p/ni-flex.htm, and at both stores you can get ink. I have dealt with the both of them, and Brian at Goulet Pens in the nicest businessman I've ever talked to, and Pear Tree pens care a lot that your package arrives safe and sound. So does Goulet Pens. I am a satisfied customer As of now, they're both out of stock, because they're quite popular.

I've already contacted Goulet and it seems they aren't expecting any more pens until the end of the summer. This a bit of a problem for me because I'm on a tight (somewhat self imposed) schedule as part of a comic book collective. I will probably end up purchasing the Noodler's, but are there any other alternatives I should investigate? I can't see any harm in owning more than one pen of course!

[Wbtrez]

I saw a Noodlers Flex today at Goldspot.com.

[thelioninlove]

I saw a Noodlers Flex today at Goldspot.com.

Wow thanks! What is the closest I can get to a waterproof ink from these guys? The bulletproof?

[thelioninlove]

Phew! $18 in shipping later on the poorest laid out site ever and I've ordered the pumpkin coloured pen with the heart of darkness ink. Will report back later! Thanks all, and if you do have any other great pen suggestions for future reference let me know. I look forward to learning more.

[Inknstuff]

Wow, lots of great information here! I am new to this but have a Noodlers Flex pen. I found the nib was a bit stiff for me and changed it out to a dip nib. Both the Hunt 99 and the Gillott 303 fit without modification, but both nibs sit a little further from the feed than the original nib and have to be charged to feed well (some people are dipping into water or ink to get them started, others seem to be fussing with the piston. It seems to be working ok for me even though fountain pen ink is formulated differently than dip pen ink. Its just nice to get an even flow without having to dip constantly

[thelioninlove]

So my Noodler's flex tip arrived today and I love it. I even love the freebie pen they threw in with the Heart of Darkness ink. Thanks for the tips everyone. Now I just need to find a cheap, stiff fine nibbed pen....

[Bo Bo Olson]

+1 andybiotic mirosc

Copied to my nib flex files.

 

On occasion I can find my elbow with both hands. If you can do such, you have either suffered a severe industrial accident, or need batteries for your flashlight, or turn the map right side up, and or read the instructions.

 

I have some 30 semi-flex nibs and some 8 somewhat flexible/'flexi' nibs.

 

I have two semi-flex full flex nibs, two easy full flex nibs and only one wet noodle....so actually I'm not an expert on flexible nibs.

 

I have been lucky and gotten most of the vintage German Obliques, and push them as a fun nib. They are semi-flex nibs and somewhat flexible/'flexi' nibs.

 

 

I have @ 20 dip pens, with nibs that are easy full flex, wet noodle, weak kneed wet noodle, drunk as hell weak kneed wet noodle and 'air' kneed wet noodle. :vbg:

I also have some much lesser dip nib flexes; in my dip pen nib box.

 

 

My hand is not good enough for full flex and better, and I'm not training it. :bonk:

 

 

Where one calls rigid, I call regular flex.

 

Those descriptions from both have been copied to my pen file in my nib section.

I copy everything good.

 

 

You got to go to www.richardspens.com/ that is the basics of fountain pens; nibs, filling systems, good advice on inks and some pens as examples .

 

 

From my reading Noodlers full flex nib is often either a nail or regular flex if one is lucky.

Having two semi-flex full flex nibs; I find them a lot of hard work, so would think a nail or regular flex ... full flex to be more than just a lot of work. It is a good cheap way to experience flex...like a mofa to a motorcycle.

 

Nibs flex is something you can only get from experience. I do try to explain often the differences in flex.

As a 'noobie' I had a pen I thought a wet writer.

When I got my first 'mythical' semi-flex, I thought it a semi-flex.

Later I got a maxi-semi-flex...after a while I decided it was one of those 'flexi' nibs everyone talks about. That pen I had from the start was a 'flexi' nib.

 

In that so many talk 'flexi' nib and can mean semi-flex to wet noodle....I call a 'flexi' nib a somewhat flexible/'flexi' nib. I have three sets/ 1. Nail-stiff regular. 2. regular, springy and semi-flex. 3. then 'some what flexible/'flexi'' which is called so because compared to a wet noodle it is somewhat flexible, easy full flex and wet noodles.

(I don't care how you define as long as you drop a definition in so I can understand where you are at.)

 

Perhaps I should call this so called somewhat flexible/'flexi' ...maxi-semi-flex, and that would be easier to understand.

Is maxi-semi-flex easier to understand than somewhat flexible/'flexi'?

 

I do need a category for it, because the way I see it, if you press real hard you get 3X tine spread to a light down stroke with a regular flex.

Semi-flex is 3X at half that pressure regular flex....the maxi-semi-flex or somewhat flexible/'flexi' is 3 X at half that pressure.

 

I insist on a different category here because the spread of the tines is still only 3 X and it is not as easy to spread as an easy Full Flex.

 

I can insist until I'm blue in the face, but so so very many will still say flex nib.....and I don't have the slightest idea which flex they are talking about....maybe they don't either.

 

Full flex is 4-5 X tine spread, and easy full flex is with half the pressure of the the maxi-semi-flex or somewhat flexible/'flexi', a Wet Noodle is 4-5 X spread with half the pressure of an easy full flex.

 

Weak kneed wet noodles which I have only in dip pens, are half of that pressure.

 

The way I see it, semi-flex can be used by ham fisted writers.

The maxi-semi-flex or somewhat flexible/'flexi' can be used by slightly ham fisted writers.

 

Easy Full flex and better needs a light hand...and it helps to have learned stiff nib calligraphy, in there are certain basic strokes that can be incorporated into one's writing when one wants a bit of fast fancy, plus one's hand is trained to do what one wants it to do.

 

What width is your P-51? Many are Fines and most are nails.

I think you are then after a Japanese F which would be a western EF, or a Japanese EF which would be a XXF in western.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[piembi]

...

My own scale goes:

nail: stiff, hard, nib doesn't give it to pressure whatsoever

rigid: nib shows a little bit of softness when pressed hard

springy: the tines give with pressure, but they don't open really for line variation, but just allow for smooth writing even with pressure

semiflex: line variation one/one and a half lines when pressed considerably: F to M, or M to B

flex: line variation two to three lines when pressed considerably: F to B, or M to BB

superflex: at least three lines variation with little pressure: F to BB, or M to BBB

noodle: a lot of variation with almost no pressure required (so it's difficult to control): F to BB/BBB - but I never had one, so that's theoretical talking for me. I rather take dip pens and adapt a reservoir.

....

 

This explains my own experience very well.

 

Most of my pens fall into the category of semiflex and flex. More recent pens can be springy.

 

I don't have a good advice for someone living in Canada. My source for flexible nibs is Ebay Germany. One can find 1960s school pens for cheap and they do have nice to wonderful nibs. Even the steel nibs are a completely different writing experience compared to modern nibs.

 

Today I have received a Lamy Artus 25. The pen is marked M but the nib writes like a fine without pressure. Using some light pressure produces a broad line with a nice line variation. Have filled it with Lamy Blue (my test ink at the office). Could not imagine that I might like Lamy Blue until it came out of this nib

[Bo Bo Olson]

How are the '70's spade nibs. Geha, Pelikan and Lamy.

My MB 320 is a nail.

 

I think I'll start using super flex for easy full flex, it seems many use that term.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Bo Bo Olson

[Sailor Kenshin]

Hi there,

 

I'm very new to the realm of fountain pens. Basically, I resolved to get one two days ago after spending an excruciating number of hours on a drawing that shouldn't have taken so long. I'm an amateur cartoonist and I've been using a dip pen, but I find that with broader strokes the pen runs out of ink after barely a line and with finer strokes it clogs. The other problem I've been having is needing to press so hard to get a line out of my pen. My hand still hurts. I've done a tiny bit of reading in the past two days and decided I need a flex nib on whatever I happen to buy because that's what the appeal of these types of pens is for me. I don't need anything pretty, just something cheap like properly cheap. I live in Canada so a local store or a store with reasonable shipping charges would be nice, because I don't know where to buy.

 

Many thanks.

 

 

Noodler's makes a flex pen at about $15. I haven't read every post so I'm sure someone already brought this up.

 

I have one and it's surprisingly flexible for a stiff nib. And it holds a lot of ink.

 

Do NOT use India or drawing ink in your fountain pens. You may now return to your regular posting.

[andybiotic]

+1 andybiotic mirosc

Copied to my nib flex files.

 

 

Perhaps I should call this so called somewhat flexible/'flexi' ...maxi-semi-flex, and that would be easier to understand.

Is maxi-semi-flex easier to understand than somewhat flexible/'flexi'?

 

I do need a category for it, because the way I see it, if you press real hard you get 3X tine spread to a light down stroke with a regular flex.

Semi-flex is 3X at half that pressure regular flex....the maxi-semi-flex or somewhat flexible/'flexi' is 3 X at half that pressure.

 

I insist on a different category here because the spread of the tines is still only 3 X and it is not as easy to spread as an easy Full Flex.

 

I can insist until I'm blue in the face, but so so very many will still say flex nib.....and I don't have the slightest idea which flex they are talking about....maybe they don't either.

 

Full flex is 4-5 X tine spread, and easy full flex is with half the pressure of the the maxi-semi-flex or somewhat flexible/'flexi', a Wet Noodle is 4-5 X spread with half the pressure of an easy full flex.

 

Weak kneed wet noodles which I have only in dip pens, are half of that pressure.

 

 

 

 

Hey BoBo, it may be hard to estimate how many time the tines can spread. In terms of line variation, would it be easier to quantify it in width (mm)? Now its hard to determine anything under 0.5mm (at least my ruler can't) so here we can be a bit subjective, e.g. XF, F, M.

 

0.5mm is already quite broad, so B?, anything in between 0.5 to just before 1mm (BB?) and after that can be measured in 1mm, 1.5mm, 2mm etc this measurement can be quite loose as well because it depends on how much you are willing to press onto the nib... if it can go pass 1mm, it is likely to be about to reach 1.5mm in maximum flex though not recommended)

 

So, basically, however you classify a normal nib you can use that for the thin lines on a flex. Then measure its thickest line in mm. If the thickest line of a nib is less than 1mm, then e.g. F-BB (which is a semi-flex at best)

 

E.g. My pen can go from a XXF (nib re-tipped to 0.3mm) and it can make a line that is 3mm thick so it has the line variation of XXF-3mm.

 

I also suggest adding a new category, the length of the tines (because the breath holes are different, measure only the length of the slit excluding the hole?) This would at least give you a little bit of an idea on how flexible it is. e.g. my nib has line variation of XXF-3mm and the length of the slit is 9.5mm (not very long) which indicate that it is somewhat super or wet noodle. Another example being the noodler's creeper's nib, it generally goes from a F/M to abour 1.5mm but it has a slit length of 1.9mm indicating that the flexibility is down to the length of the tines (which it IS!) and is a semi-flex at best... Kinda confusing but it is just an idea...

 

 

What do you think? :embarrassed_smile:

 

 

Now... I have no idea on how to quantify pressure / flexiblity without using specialised tools... and I also have no idea on how to standardise the terms in the context of semi-flex, your "maxi-semi-flex", full, super etc... these are still a bit subjective...

Edited July 14, 2011 by andybiotic